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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/23/2004 7:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | It is commonly said that Satan has three forms under which he tempts men:
1. The subtle serpent.
2. The roaring lion.
3. The angel of light.
Of the three, the angel of light is the one that alarms me the most. As the angel of light, satan persuades men to do things under the name of religion, which are subversive of religion and the church. Hence we find all of the persecutions, fires, horrors and the hell of the inquisitions under the pretense of keeping heresy out of the Church. “In the form of heathen persecution, like a lion he has ravaged the heritage of the Lord. And by means of our senses and passions, as the subtle serpent, he is frequently deceiving us, so that often the workings of corrupt nature are mistaken for the operations of the Spirit of God.”
2 Cor. 11:13-15 (NIV)
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
So my question is how do we discern the face of good? If the fruit appears to be attractive, good and moral on the outside how do we know? I submit that it is by the sin of judgment that crawls in its core. When judgment surfaces, the veil is lifted to expose satan’s pestiferous worms that spoil the fruit wicked.
Here are a few indicators of who is or isn’t a true follower of Christ.
1. Do the teachings confirm Scripture (Acts 17:11)?
2. Does the teacher affirm and proclaim that Jesus Christ is God who came into the world as a man to save people from their sins (1 John 4:1-3)?
3. Is the teacher’s life-style consistent with Biblical morality (Matthew 12:33-37)?
It would be helpful to get other people’s input on this subject. What do you say?
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/23/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | The street wisdom when I was a seventies teenager was the people payed way too much attention to the devil. Rather, as with how people learn to spot counterfeit money, wisdom says that you must leard to spot the genuine. Then all other is obviously fake.
Please don't let this be ANOTHER in-the-gutter villian-seaking thread. There are enough of them here already. IMHO. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/23/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
It is commonly said that Satan has three forms under which he tempts men:
1. The subtle serpent.
2. The roaring lion.
3. The angel of light.
Of the three, the angel of light is the one that alarms me the most. As the angel of light, satan persuades men to do things under the name of religion, which are subversive of religion and the church. Hence we find all of the persecutions, fires, horrors and the hell of the inquisitions under the pretense of keeping heresy out of the Church. “In the form of heathen persecution, like a lion he has ravaged the heritage of the Lord. And by means of our senses and passions, as the subtle serpent, he is frequently deceiving us, so that often the workings of corrupt nature are mistaken for the operations of the Spirit of God.”
2 Cor. 11:13-15 (NIV)
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
So my question is how do we discern the face of good? If the fruit appears to be attractive, good and moral on the outside how do we know? I submit that it is by the sin of judgment that crawls in its core. When judgment surfaces, the veil is lifted to expose satan’s pestiferous worms that spoil the fruit wicked.
Here are a few indicators of who is or isn’t a true follower of Christ.
1. Do the teachings confirm Scripture (Acts 17:11)?
2. Does the teacher affirm and proclaim that Jesus Christ is God who came into the world as a man to save people from their sins (1 John 4:1-3)?
3. Is the teacher’s life-style consistent with Biblical morality (Matthew 12:33-37)?
It would be helpful to get other people’s input on this subject. What do you say?
Interesting post, Sparky!
I agree that the most difficult is the angel of light. How would the deceivers be able to deceive us if they were obvious. In 1 John 4:1 we see that what they "confess" is how we know them, not by what they deny. It would be hard to overtly stand against the teachings of Scripture, that Jesus Christ is God who came into the world as a man to save people from their sins and live an imoral lifestyle and still be "deceptive."
I am intrigued by your premise below. What scriptures do you think support it?
So my question is how do we discern the face of good? If the fruit appears to be attractive, good and moral on the outside how do we know? I submit that it is by the sin of judgment that crawls in its core. When judgment surfaces, the veil is lifted to expose satan’s pestiferous worms that spoil the fruit wicked.
I think that it is difficult in that opposition is scriptural and yet, when the truth opposes the false, both claim that they are right. In Galatians 2, when Paul opposes the Apostle Peter to his face in front of all, we have 2 "judgements" goin on. Paul was judging Peter. Peter was "judging" the Gentiles by not dining with them. It isn't the absence of judgment but "which side" that seems to be critical. I am interested in how you come to the above conclusion.
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/23/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Rather, as with how people learn to spot counterfeit money, wisdom says that you must leard to spot the genuine. Then all other is obviously fake.
Sounds like very good advice? But I don’t’ think it's always quite that easy, even in the seventies, remember Jones town. Over 900 men, women and children died following what appeared to be the genuine love of Christ.
quote:
Please don't let this be ANOTHER in-the-gutter villian-seaking thread. There are enough of them here already. IMHO.
I totally agree! That's the last thing we need here. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/23/2004 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I am intrigued by your premise below. What scriptures do you think support it?
For starters, study the Scripture I quoted in bold. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/23/2004 9:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I am intrigued by your premise below. What scriptures do you think support it?
For starters, study the Scripture I quoted in bold.
Your interpretation of "his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness" is that they judge those around them? It isn't explicitly stated that way but, I suppose one could look at it this way. However, this doesn't somehow seem too appealing a disguise. Most people wouldn't be tempted to follow someone who condemns their lawlessness.
The false prophets in the Old Testament typically told the people that they were fine with what they were doing. Their message was very tolerant and broad. In contrast, the true prophets were consistent in looking to the Law and comparing the people's actions in contrast to the actions demanded by the law. Even John the Baptist, who never did a miracle, condemned the Pharisees for reliance on false assurance instead of the fruit of true repentance. John "judged" those who failed to keep the Law. This "foreshadowing" in Matthew 3 culminates with Jesus condemning the Pharisees in Matthew 23. He did not condemn them for keeping the law but for placing their own laws and traditions above God's law as well as for claiming to obey God's laws but failing to do so -hypocricy.
Perhaps this could also apply to those who say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" Who could fault these men and such righteous actions. Their masquerade is so good and convincing that they even fool themselves. They are servants, but not of the Righteous One, they masquerade as His servant doing righteous acts while serving someone else.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/23/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Your interpretation of "his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness" is that they judge those around them? It isn't explicitly stated that way but, I suppose one could look at it this way.
Thank you for looking. quote:
However, this doesn't somehow seem too appealing a disguise. Most people wouldn't be tempted to follow someone who condemns their lawlessness.
Jim Jones had many followers and he condemned the US Government and anyone that tried to leave the Peoples Temple, to name a few.
The horror of the Church has condemned a countless many.
Many people of time followed the Pharisees. Would you consider the Pharisees a little judgmental? How many times did they try to use the law to condmn Jesus? Would the Pharisees be found guilty of condemning anyone to death?
quote:
I think that it is difficult in that opposition is scriptural and yet, when the truth opposes the false, both claim that they are right. In Galatians 2, when Paul opposes the Apostle Peter to his face in front of all, we have 2 "judgements" goin on. Paul was judging Peter. Peter was "judging" the Gentiles by not dining with them. It isn't the absence of judgment but "which side" that seems to be critical. I am interested in how you come to the above conclusion.
Peter was using the old LAW to pass judgment; Paul preached to cleanse the heart, and that salvation came from the love of Christ as a free gift to all that had faith. In the stillness of your own room, circumcise your heart of its judgment towards your neighbor’s inequities. Search your soul for your own sin and repent. Ask for Christ's mercy
quote:
The false prophets in the Old Testament typically told the people that they were fine with what they were doing. Their message was very tolerant and broad.
Hmmm, Scripture please. quote:
In contrast, the true prophets were consistent in looking to the Law and comparing the people's actions in contrast to the actions demanded by the law. Even John the Baptist, who never did a miracle, condemned the Pharisees for reliance on false assurance instead of the fruit of true repentance. John "judged" those who failed to keep the Law. This "foreshadowing" in Matthew 3 culminates with Jesus condemning the Pharisees in Matthew 23. He did not condemn them for keeping the law but for placing their own laws and traditions above God's law as well as for claiming to obey God's laws but failing to do so -hypocricy.
Does the Gospel teach us that Jesus came to condemn the world or save it? I think outside of the Pharisees, you would be hard pressed to find Jesus condemning anyone. But even still, it is not mans place to judge, judgment is reserved for God and Jesus was and is God.
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spenlake
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| Posted 7/24/2004 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Sparky,
You write:
"Many people of time followed the Pharisees. Would you consider the Pharisees a little judgmental? How many times did they try to use the law to condmn Jesus? Would the Pharisees be found guilty of condemning anyone to death?"
Paul clarifies the basis for the persecution of the Pharisees in Galatians. "For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions." The basis was not the Law of God but their traditions. Jesus setting aside and not honoring their traditions is what they were angry about. Jesus specifically addressed this when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8, "“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." This is further confirmed at the trial of Jesus in which the only "sin" they could accuse Jesus of was His claim to be God (which was true), not breaking the Law in Matthew 26, "The high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said* to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.” Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!" You have a right to have your own theory about the Pharisees and your claim that they believed the Jesus didn't follow the Law, but I think it isn't supported by the scriptures as strongly as the view that I have laid out.
Concerning your request for scriptures to support the concept of the comforting false prophets:
1 Kings 13:11-19
1 Kings 22:6
2 Chron 18
Isaiah 30:9
For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;
Who say to the seers, “You must not see visions”;and to the prophets, “You must not prophesy to us what is right, Speak to us pleasant words, Prophesy illusions. “Get out of the way, turn aside from the path, Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
Jer 2: 8, 26
Jer 4:9-10
Jer 5:11
“For the house of Israel and the house of Judah
Have dealt very treacherously with Me,” declares the LORD.
They have lied about the LORD
And said, “Not He;
Misfortune will not come on us,
And we will not see sword or famine.
“The prophets are as wind,
And the word is not in them.
Thus it will be done to them!”
Jer 5:30
“An appalling and horrible thing
Has happened in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love it so!
But what will you do at the end of it?
Jer 6:13
“For from the least of them even to the greatest of them,
Everyone is greedy for gain,
And from the prophet even to the priest
Everyone deals falsely.
They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially,
Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’
But there is no peace.
"Were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done?
They were not even ashamed at all;
They did not even know how to blush.
Jer 8:10
Jer 14:13
But, “Ah, Lord GOD!” I said, “Look, the prophets are telling them, ‘You will not see the sword nor will you have famine, but I will give you lasting peace in this place.’” Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds. “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who are prophesying in My name, although it was not I who sent them—yet they keep saying, ‘There will be no sword or famine in this land’—by sword and famine those prophets shall meet their end!
Jer 20:1-6
Jer 23:14
“Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing:
The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood;
And they strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one has turned back from his wickedness.
All of them have become to Me like Sodom,
Jer 23:16
Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD.
“They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace”’; and as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’ “But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened? “Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath"
Jer 28:1
Ezekiel 13:8
Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, “Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you,” declares the Lord GOD. “So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD. “It is definitely because they have misled My people by saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with whitewash;"
Spen Lake
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/24/2004 7:07 AM (GMT -6) | | .
.
Keith, Spenlake, Spin. Enough. ENOUGH.
No more excuses.
No more L-e-g-a-l-i-s-m.
NO .MORE .LEGALISM.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/25/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | | remember what i said about NO VILLIAN HUNTING | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/25/2004 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | | .
CORRECTION:
Spenlake has vilified Dr. Boyd (Re: "Seeing is Believing") for months.
To "silently observe" such injustice -- gives tacit approval.
Many have spoken out against Keith's allegations; and,
as long as his outrageous allegations continue --"protests" will be heard.
<><
------
NO MORE FALSE ACCUSATIONS.
No more character-assassination.
No more man-made hoops.
NO MORE LEGALISM.
.
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/25/2004 3:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Romans 13:8-10 (NLT)
Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law. [9] For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting—and any other commandment—are all summed up in this one commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself." [10] Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | | Ooops. "Villify" means to turn into an Italian house. My bad. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/25/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen, it’s sad  that you can not stay focused on the topic at hand. I was hoping you could contribute in a positive light. You smear the picture with the same color over and over again until it spins out of control with no meaningful reason to continue. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/25/2004 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | Sorry POW, I had good itentions for this thread. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/25/2004 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Yeah. the "rules" we had in '73-75 for Bible Study was that no one could share anything until they had test driven it in their lives for a week or two. No "angels on the head of a pin" issues got brought up.
Same should be said for cat-calls. Unless one actually is praying for something, dusting the floor with dirty knees, and sweating ofer lives and mercies, then perhaps we don't have any business posting.
Maybe this is a new thought. But maybe we all should pause to weigh it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/25/2004 6:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Yeah. the "rules" we had in '73-75 for Bible Study was that no one could share anything until they had test driven it in their lives for a week or two. No "angels on the head of a pin" issues got brought up.
Same should be said for cat-calls. Unless one actually is praying for something, dusting the floor with dirty knees, and sweating ofer lives and mercies, then perhaps we don't have any business posting.
Maybe this is a new thought. But maybe we all should pause to weigh it.
Congratulations  , with that last post you just reached a new milestone. You have just posted number four thousand eight hundred. WOW POW. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/27/2004 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Perhaps the following would be more appropriate?
No more s-p-i-r-i-t-i-s-m.
Hey Spen Lake, maybe you can find something more positive to chew on by reading the following quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
There are two basic ways in my opinion to look at Christ's death. One is what I call the "Legal view" and the other is what I call the "Love view".
The legal view sees everything in terms of right and wrong / good and evil. It is the major filter that we all have on because we are living out of the knowledge of good and evil. We all interpret everything through this lens. It is as though we all have on a blue filter and so we see everything colored blue. Thus we tend to view Christ's death as a neccessary thing that had to happen in order for God to be able to forgive us - that God could not forgive us unless there was some sacrifice or punishment or just consequence that the law absolutely neccessitated. But let's think about this for just a moment. If God HAD to exact justice / punishment based on the "Law" then how is God not conditioned by the law? It suggests that there is something higher than God that God must answer to - that God is bound by the law. I do not believe that this is the case.
The love view sees God as unconditionally loving us. That God is not conditioned by anything in his desire and ability to forgive us. That the real problem is that we do not forgive him or others which really means that we do not forgive ourselves. We are totally caught up in the legal view.
The love view sees God as dying on the cross in order to break through our trance of good and evil. How can the legal view possibly understand God Himself being the propitiation for our sin? God is the lawgiver. God is the one we transgressed against. God dying on the cross is nonsense to our own knowledge of good and evil - to the "wisdom" of man. Think about it. If someone killed your entire family how is it possibly justice / propiation of sin for you then to offer yourself up to be killed by the murderer as well? This is utter nonsense. The cross makes nonsense out of man's wisdom - which is nothing but the stolen knowledge of good and evil - which is nothing but our judgement.
So then, why all the language in the bible regarding Jesus as the sacrifice and so on?
My answer to that is that since our very language is infected with the legal view God can only communicate with us based on our own metaphors - our own way of understanding things. God in his love reaches out to us exactly where we are - caught up in the legal view. It is WE who require a sacrifice, a propiation for our sins. And thus God offers us this understanding to us. But it is no different than explaining to a child what the moon is or what gravity is. We do not expect the child to continue in their childlike understanding as they grow up - we expect them move beyond their early understanding. This is why Paul says that we must move beyond the "milk" of our early understanding of Christ's death (Christianity) and begin to eat meat - to begin to really comprehend what is going on. It is only AFTER we let go of our own judgement that we can even begin to comprehend God's love for us.
This is because we are totally caught up in the legal view. We do not forgive ourselves, God or others. God seeks to break through this by first helping us to understand that He forgives us and thus we are invited to forgive ourselves. As we learn to forgive ourselves we learn that God loves us just as we are - even in our sin. We come to learn that God has always loved us and always forgives us - that indeed it is not about forgiveness on God's part at all - forgiveness is our problem because we judge.
thanks,
Iconoclast
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3519&whichpage=1 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/27/2004 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
This is why Paul says that we must move beyond the "milk" of our early understanding of Christ's death (Christianity) and begin to eat meat - to begin to really comprehend what is going on.
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3519&whichpage=1
I don't know. That sounds like it regards Christianity and the Cross and death and dying of our savior as an illusion, or immature understanding.
What do you think?
I hope that he is affirming the Cross, etc., and just refering to how it is understood. (But I sure didn't take it that way on first reading.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/27/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
This is why Paul says that we must move beyond the "milk" of our early understanding of Christ's death (Christianity) and begin to eat meat - to begin to really comprehend what is going on.
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3519&whichpage=1
I don't know. That sounds like it regards Christianity and the Cross and death and dying of our savior as an illusion, or immature understanding.
What do you think?
I hope that he is affirming the Cross, etc., and just refering to how it is understood. (But I sure didn't take it that way on first reading.)
I'm not sure what Icon meant. But, I affirm the Cross. | | Back to Top | | |
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