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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/26/2004 10:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | .
Amen.
rossfadeinout wrote:
quote:
i think that John Earp hit the nail on the head when he said
that most discipline is done through "the conviction of the Holy Spirit." .
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/26/2004 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Selahquote:
What I think I'm hearing you say is that the way God does discipline/punishment is by allowing US to make decisions and deal with the outcome of the decisions we make. Is this what you are suggesting?
That's NOT what I am suggesting -- that is how I do "God's discipline" in my head and I shared this because you had asked people to share how they "did it in their head".
Selah, how do you do God's discipline/punishment in your head? Do you believe God PUNISHES his beloved? For me the word punishment equals abuse. As parents we discipline our children but we must not punish them. Perhaps the word takes on a different meaning for you than it does for me?
Mayflowerquote:
If we tell the person who is dying of lung cancer that perhaps God's lack of intervention is because they are being disciplined and/or punished -- I think we're buying into the old "God is complicit in evil" worldview. (i.e., If God could have cured the cancer but intentionally chose not to, etc., etc.)...
And, just as God is not a participant in evil, He is not responsible for the pain/suffering (in this case, cancer) of His children
Mayflower, I want you to read me stating that I do not believe that God punishes people EVER in such a way to cause them to have cancer! God may allow consequences to befall his beloved creation but God NEVER causes sickness or death. In fact death came about due to the fall. Jesus died to put an end to death's sting.
I agree with John in that SOMETIMES we are convicted by the Holy Spirit when we have sinned but to be honest I do not always feel convicted. In the same way children do not always feel guilty when they have disobeyed their parents. The Holy Spirit sometimes convicts us to repentance and sometimes God has to knock us off the horse as he did with Saul to bring us to repentance. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/26/2004 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, Quest:
Um. Okay. I "read" you. 
But, since I "think in pictures," would you mind if I ENVISION you, instead?
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
Quest wrote: quote:
Mayflower, I want you to read me stating that I do not believe that God punishes people EVER in such a way to cause them to have cancer!...
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/26/2004 3:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/27/2004 1:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
What does it look/feel like when GOD knocks us off our horse vs. when we fall off ourselves or when other agents do it. Is there a difference?
Yes, Selah, there is a tension in this, isn't there? I don't personally believe we can always know from where the "knocking off of our feet" comes from yet we can trust that "God is working for the good for those who love him."
I know there are times GOD does the knocking as with Saul and Jonah. The "cosmic time out" you referred to does seem to fit into those two stories. At some point both Saul and Jonah came to know that it was God doing the "knocking off their feet" didn't they? Perhaps this fits into the type of scenario that John Earp was suggesting of the Holy Spirit working to convict us.
If we don't know where the "knocking off our feet" comes from then we are left to trust that God is working on our behalf to bring about good. The one thing that I am unable to do in my head is God punishing.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/27/2004 1:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Selah: What I think I'm hearing you say is that the way God does discipline/punishment is by allowing US to make decisions and deal with the outcome of the decisions we make. Is this what you are suggesting?
That's NOT what I am suggesting -- that is how I do "God's discipline" in my head and I shared this because you had asked people to share how they "did it in their head".
Sorry QFT I don't see the difference. If that is how you do it "in your head" then isn't that how you do it - period?
quote:
Selah, how do you do God's discipline/punishment in your head?
To be honest, I don't. That's one reason I'm asking this on the board.
quote:
Do you believe God PUNISHES his beloved?
Well, I'm finding that the bible suggests God "opposes" the proud, He gets "angry and jealous", and yes, I think He may even "discipline and punish"
Heb 12:5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, my son, do not regard lightly the disciplineof the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives. NASV
{ok scourges =
1. A source of widespread dreadful affliction and devastation such as that caused by pestilence or war. 2. A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment. 3. A whip used to inflict punishment.}
Heb 12:5 - And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children— "My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him NRSV
Heb 12:7 - Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline?
Heb 12:11 - Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Rev 3:19 I reprove and discipline those whom I love. Be earnest, therefore, and repent.
oh, and isn't this interesting? The Lord will punish the host of heaven on high (weird!) btw I haven't studied this in context...just pulling it because it sounds odd. After all this board contains spontaneous, unedited dialogue - not scholarly discourse (which will never be in question in my posts!)
Isaiah 24:21 So it will happen in that day, That the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. 22 They will be gathered together {Like} prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they {will} {be} punished. 23 Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And {His} glory will be before His elder
quote:
For me the word punishment equals abuse.
pun·ish
1. To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.
2. To inflict a penalty for (an offense).
3. To handle roughly; hurt: My boots were punished by our long trek through the desert.
-dictionary.com
quote:
As parents we discipline our children but we must not punish them. Perhaps the word takes on a different meaning for you than it does for me?
well, meanings of words can change over time. In other words, we socially construct meanings. My parents used the word "punishment" without batting an eye - as I'm sure their parents did and so on. Now-a-days "punishment" is not a nice word (or a politically correct word) to use (for me or for you) because of its socially constructed new meaning... which relates it to abuse. That's my two cents anyway.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/27/2004 3:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sorry QFT I don't see the difference. If that is how you do it "in your head" then isn't that how you do it - period?
I do not understand where you are going with that question? Yes, this is how I "do" God's discipline in my head. I don't know what you mean by "how I do it period"
Yes, words are socially constructed. You asked what God's punishment looks like for people and in my personal response to punishment I said I do NOT believe God punishes in the way we interpret "socially construct" the word in today's language.
I'll let others jump in now. I hope others can give you satisfying answers to your inquiry. Great questions! | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/27/2004 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quoting John quote:
In my experience on this message board and in the U.S. "Christian" culture in general, most professing Christians simply have no idea what the biblical concept of God's discipline is (which is always loving). Anyone who tries to present this "strong meat" of God's word (the dire need we all have for true godly discipline so that we might be partakers in His holiness--Heb. 12) is quickly accused of being by definition unloving. Of course, one only need visit your local Wal-Mart to see that discipline is a forgotten concept in our culture.
Without the discipline of the Covenant, none of us could ever persevere. God promised David that if his children forsake God's law, God would visit them with the rod of correction--to bring them back into right relationship with Him. So "punishment" simply for the sake of inflicting pain is not the biblical idea of discipline/chastening at all.
I am amazed to see how beautifully touching my little 1-1/2-year-old daughter's "repentance" is whenever I even have to sternly tell her "No-NO!" when she's reaching for something that could hurt her (like my coffee cup). She almost instantly starts crying, throws her arms up to me and embraces me, apparently seeking to be reassured of my love for her. As I kiss away her tears, I am always deeply moved by how like our relationship with our Heavenly Father this is.
selah:
John, this has been helpful. Basically, God disciplines and His discipline is good. His discipline (however imperfect OUR view of it may be) is also loving... and not for the purpose of inflicting pain. In fact, he may even experience "this is gonna hurt me MORE than it does you" when He disciplines us -- as we do sometimes as parents!
There. How's that?
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/27/2004 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | For the wages of sin is the curse of death. It’s not just a mere disciplinary action, but true punishment as a result of the fall. What more punishing punishment can there be, then that of the cherubim and flaming sword that guards the gates of paradise and the tree of life. Shelter from this perpetual punishment is paradoxically found by drawing nearer to God. Thanks to Jesus (the new Adam); we have a small sliver of an opening back into paradise, hope in the everlasting life that is promised. Oh how brightly the light shines through the crack of the door, the door left open by the promise of Christ our Lord Savior.
But then again, maybe I’m just too naive, maybe God does get PMS. 
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/27/2004 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | .
WOW.
What a progressive thought!
Maybe She does!
.
Sparknheart wrote:
quote:
But then again, maybe I’m just too naive, maybe God does get PMS.
.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/27/2004 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
.
WOW.
What a progressive thought!
Maybe She does!
.
Sparknheart wrote:
quote:
But then again, maybe I’m just too naive, maybe God does get PMS.
.
Thank You! 
Matthew 23:37 (NIV)
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/27/2004 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/27/2004 1:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
selah:
John, this has been helpful. Basically, God disciplines and His discipline is good. His discipline (however imperfect OUR view of it may be) is also loving... and not for the purpose of inflicting pain. In fact, he may even experience "this is gonna hurt me MORE than it does you" when He disciplines us -- as we do sometimes as parents!
There. How's that?
Yes, that would be my assessment, though to be certain, I think it's clear that God will finally mete out justice (punishment) on those who persist in sin, which is what hell is.
The following quote, from an excellent article I found entitled, "Holiness in the Early Church," brings out an important distinction between the historic Western and Eastern Christian points of view on punishment:
Two Judges
To illustrate the difference let me use a modern analogy. Let’s say a teenager drives his car carelessly and is involved in a car accident that injures a friend of his riding in the car. He is taken to court and the judge fines him $1,000. He doesn’t have the money, so his friend who was injured tells the judge that he would pay the fine. The judge accepts the offer and lets the guilty driver go free. He has been forgiven because someone else paid the fine.
(My note--this is a big problem with Augustinian-Calvinist theology--how can a debt be BOTH paid AND forgiven?)
But as soon as he leaves the court, guess what he does? He drives 60 mph in a school zone where the speed limit is 25. The young man has been forgiven, but has he changed? Not a bit. In fact, this judge is not concerned whether this teenager changes or not, because he sees his role as a judge to impose a penalty and make sure that the penalty is paid. After all, he is a judge, not a counselor, pastor, or psychologist.
But what if there was a second judge with a similar case, except that this judge said to the boy: "You are guilty, but your friend is paying the fine for you and therefore you are no longer legally liable to pay anything. You are free to go. But I’m not finished with you. You will have to go through some counseling. And you need to do some community service. You will have to attend driver’s training classes. You will have to report to me every week. You will be on probation. I’m going to keep an eye on you until you can prove to me that you have changed your driving habits and you have become a responsible person."
These two judges obviously looked at guilt, punishment, and forgiveness in radically different ways. The first judge thought in strictly legal terms: if the fine is paid, the boy can go free; he is no longer liable. He is forgiven because someone paid the price. The second judge also accepts the payment from the friend, but believes that forgiveness is only the beginning. The reckless driver must somehow be helped to become a responsible driver. It is not enough that someone pay the fine and let the guilty party go free. The guilty man needs a lot of help to change and become a responsible person.
The entire article may be viewed at:
http://www.cresourcei.org/hhearlychurch.html
(While I do not buy into the entire spiel of Eastern Orthodoxy, I do find much that I can agree with in historic Eastern Christian doctrine, especially where it contrasts with Augustine's dualistic, fatalistic philosophy).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/27/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6) | | So the good judge gave us a life of probation!
An ankle bracelet called our moral conscience and a probation officer called the Holy Spirit. | | Back to Top | | |
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