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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/24/2004 1:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | I don't understand the whole "punishment motif" that runs throughout scripture... What's with that? What does that look like to us? Did I forget how we explain this? (Tom??)
Hebrews 12:5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children— "My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him;6for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts." NRSV
Joshua 23:11 Be very careful, therefore, to love the Lord your God. 12 For if you turn back, and join the survivors of these nations left here among you, and intermarry with them, so that you marry their women and they yours, 13 know assuredly that the Lord your God will not continue to drive out these nations before you; but they shall be a snare and a trap for you, a scourge on your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land that the Lord your God has given you. 14 "And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one thing has failed of all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you; all have come to pass for you, not one of them has failed. 15 But just as all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the bad things, until he has destroyed you from this good land that the Lord your God has given you. 16 If you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which he enjoined on you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from the good land that he has given to you."
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 7/24/2004 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
Hebrews 12:5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children— "My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him;6for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts."
Hello Selah, below are some quotes from Life Application Notes. Hopefully it helps a little. Peace - Mark
Who loves his child more—the father who allows the child to do what will harm him, or the one who corrects, trains, and even punishes the child to help him learn what is right? It’s never pleasant to be corrected and disciplined by God, but his discipline is a sign of his deep love for us. When God corrects you, see it as proof of his love and ask him what he is trying to teach you.
We may respond to discipline in several ways:
(1) we can accept it with resignation;
(2) we can accept it with self-pity, thinking we really don’t deserve it;
(3) we can be angry and resentful toward God; or
(4) we can accept it gratefully, as the appropriate response we owe a loving Father.
quote:
Joshua 23:11 Be very careful, therefore, to love the Lord your God. 12 For if you turn back, and join the survivors of these nations left here among you, and intermarry with them, so that you marry their women and they yours, 13 know assuredly that the Lord your God will not continue to drive out these nations before you; but they shall be a snare and a trap for you, a scourge on your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land that the Lord your God has given you. 14 "And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one thing has failed of all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you; all have come to pass for you, not one of them has failed. 15 But just as all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the bad things, until he has destroyed you from this good land that the Lord your God has given you. 16 If you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which he enjoined on you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from the good land that he has given to you."
23:6-13 Joshua knew the nation’s weak spots. Before dying, he called the people together and gave commands to help them where they were most likely to slip: (1) follow all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses without turning aside; (2) don’t associate with the pagan nations or worship their gods; (3) don’t intermarry with the pagan nations. These temptations were right in their backyard. Our associations and relationships can be temptations to us as well. It’s wise to identify our weak spots before we break down. Then we can develop strategies to overcome these temptations instead of being overcome by them.
23:12-16 This chilling prediction about the consequences of intermarriage with the Canaanite nations eventually became a reality. Numerous stories in the book of Judges show what Israel had to suffer because of failure to follow God wholeheartedly. God was supremely loving and patient with Israel, just as he is today. But we must not confuse his patience with us as approval or indifference to our sin. Beware of demanding your own way because eventually you may get it—along with all its painful consequences | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/24/2004 3:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Selah-
I've been punished a LOT, so I'm an expert! Naw, just kiddin.
What? You don't understand THIS? You BAD girl! You must be punished. Bad girl. Bad bad girl. Time for a whippin! Wack, wack! No movies. No chocolate. No fun. And you be in by 9 PM. You bad girl!
Tom
HEY DUDES AND DUDDETS (sp?). I, my wife, and all four of our punishment-ladden children are rolling into St. Paul tonight. We'll be in town till Tuesday morning. Checking out North Central for my eldest girl (who will likely start there in a few weeks). Hope to see some of you at church. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2004 4:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Selah,
I see that Sparky pointed out how the two verses had different outcomes of punishment: one to correct and redirect, and the other to proh8ibit and ban.
We really have to spend a lot of time with the WHOLE of scripture. When I was reading THIS www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/exact_freewill.aspx by John of Damascus I felt sure that I had the same Sunday School stories in mind as he did. I could easily follow the thoughts about God redirecting, getting our attention, and sometimes just grounding us from something too important to the rest for us to be trusted with it anymore; but yet finding something that we can both handle and grow in.
The point always is that God loves mankind, is merciful, and works (with us) for our salvation. (Yes the Cross is the final word, but we have to let it into our ears and into our hearts and into out actions.) And further, we are only saved if we finish the race. But we can partake of the Kingdom now, and we aught.
Hell is a prison locked from the inside. But the Lord is merciful: www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=the+lord+is+merciful&version=NIV . | | Back to Top | | |
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JET
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 7/24/2004 6:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Spark:
Who loves his child more—the father who allows the child to do what will harm him, or the one who corrects, trains, and even punishes the child to help him learn what is right? It’s never pleasant to be corrected and disciplined by God, but his discipline is a sign of his deep love for us. When God corrects you, see it as proof of his love and ask him what he is trying to teach you.
I'd like to think that all the "punishment" language in Scripture is really about love and "discipline". I'd like to think that the Biblical message is about love (and I think it is, ultimately) and not "punishment and rewards". But you gotta admit there's some disturbing stuff in there that doesn't always sound like mere "discipline" or "correction".
Don't let 'em off the hook too easy, Selah. I wanna hear more.
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
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| Posted 7/24/2004 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
quote:
Spark:
Who loves his child more—the father who allows the child to do what will harm him, or the one who corrects, trains, and even punishes the child to help him learn what is right? It’s never pleasant to be corrected and disciplined by God, but his discipline is a sign of his deep love for us. When God corrects you, see it as proof of his love and ask him what he is trying to teach you.
I'd like to think that all the "punishment" language in Scripture is really about love and "discipline". I'd like to think that the Biblical message is about love (and I think it is, ultimately) and not "punishment and rewards". But you gotta admit there's some disturbing stuff in there that doesn't always sound like mere "discipline" or "correction".
Don't let 'em off the hook too easy, Selah. I wanna hear more.
Well, whether it be discipline, punishment, correction, or whatever...
My question is really WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE (or feel like) when God does this to us?
Tom is dead 
love
selah | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/24/2004 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess I'm guilty of the great sin of anthropomorphizing God (but so is the Bible, so I'll have something to read in hell), but I think God really does get angry sometimes. Violently angry. The difference between his anger, and our typical anger is that He has a good reason. I think He loves us, and when anyone screws with our relationship with Him, He gets *@^$#&@ angry. (*@^$#&@ means "very") I even if it's we who spoil the relationship ourselves, He gets angry.
But here's the crazy thing, and this shows amazing maturity on God's part. He still loves us. He still wants us back. He won't hold all the stuff that infuriates Him against us, if we just will come back to Him. It's amazing that sin can make Him so angry and He can still welcome us back with sincerity.
As to what it looks like, I think at first He makes it unpleasant to reject Him, in hopes that we'll come back. But when we have made a conscious decision to make our relationship with God in some area second priority, then He lets us go. When we trip by mistake, that's one thing. When we run away, that's another.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/24/2004 9:15 AM (GMT -6) | | sahid said:
"I think at first He makes it unpleasant to reject Him"
selah:
Ok, how does God "DO" making it unpleasant?
Like, do I get in a car crash and end up in that hospital (so that I have a cosmic "time out" to think about my actions?) or do I just have a bad day? or what?
love
selah | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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| Posted 7/24/2004 1:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | How God punishes is up to God. No one can tell you HOW he will punish because he chooses many different ways in scripture. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/24/2004 1:54 PM (GMT -6) | | | have you experienced God's punishment feelin? How do/would you know if you were? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/24/2004 3:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I would say that the only time I would be worried as a Christian were if I were in such rebellion against God that I was endanger of losing my salvation (another issue) and God would have to smack me so hard to get my attention. Since I can honestly say I haven't been in that position, I can't say that I really think about the punishment of God that much. It just isn't a subject that interests me.
Having said that, my point was simply that scripture does not show any real pattern about how God punishs or when. It simply says that he will under certain conditions (conditions that may or may not apply to us today).
But I will also say that (like knowing God's will), if God truly wished us to do a certain thing, we shouldn't worry about knowing it. He will let us know.
And if he was truly going to punish us in such a way as to get us to repent of something, I am sure he will let us know its him punishing us. I trust him enough that he wouldn't leave such a thing to chance.
And no, I know God has not punished me in any direct way. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/24/2004 7:06 PM (GMT -6) | | It seems to me that "punishment" is not the best translation. Most translations render this word "chastisement," which really is the same thing as "discipline." Being a disciple obviously requires that we be disciplined. As the Hebrews passage cited in the first post goes on to say, "if you are without discipline, you are not sons but bastards (illegitimate)."
How does God do this? Most generally, by what is called the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Paul instructed Timothy to "exhort, reprove, and rebuke, with all patience and teaching," and yet today we have effectively deleted GODLY reproof and rebuke from our concept of Christian community.
The following is a biblical example of how God disciplines his (legitimate) children.
Rev. 3:14 ‘And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin* of God’s creation:
15 ‘I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, “I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.” You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich; and white robes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen; and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19I reprove and discipline those whom I love. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. 20Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me. 21To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.’
In my experience on this message board and in the U.S. "Christian" culture in general, most professing Christians simply have no idea what the biblical concept of God's discipline is (which is always loving). Anyone who tries to present this "strong meat" of God's word (the dire need we all have for true godly discipline so that we might be partakers in His holiness--Heb. 12) is quickly accused of being by definition unloving. Of course, one only need visit your local Wal-Mart to see that discipline is a forgotten concept in our culture.
Without the discipline of the Covenant, none of us could ever persevere. God promised David that if his children forsake God's law, God would visit them with the rod of correction--to bring them back into right relationship with Him. So "punishment" simply for the sake of inflicting pain is not the biblical idea of discipline/chastening at all.
I am amazed to see how beautifully touching my little 1-1/2-year-old daughter's "repentance" is whenever I even have to sternly tell her "No-NO!" when she's reaching for something that could hurt her (like my coffee cup). She almost instantly starts crying, throws her arms up to me and embraces me, apparently seeking to be reassured of my love for her. As I kiss away her tears, I am always deeply moved by how like our relationship with our Heavenly Father this is.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/24/2004 9:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Originally posted by JET
quote:
Spark:
Who loves his child more—the father who allows the child to do what will harm him, or the one who corrects, trains, and even punishes the child to help him learn what is right? It’s never pleasant to be corrected and disciplined by God, but his discipline is a sign of his deep love for us. When God corrects you, see it as proof of his love and ask him what he is trying to teach you.
I'd like to think that all the "punishment" language in Scripture is really about love and "discipline". I'd like to think that the Biblical message is about love (and I think it is, ultimately) and not "punishment and rewards". But you gotta admit there's some disturbing stuff in there that doesn't always sound like mere "discipline" or "correction".
Don't let 'em off the hook too easy, Selah. I wanna hear more.
Well, whether it be discipline, punishment, correction, or whatever...
My question is really WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE (or feel like) when God does this to us?
Tom is dead
love
selah
Selah,
I believe that God "allows" because of free will, the consequences of our sins. I also believe that His Spirit is striving with us, persuading us, wooing us, pointing us in the right direction; but we don't always choose what we know is right. We are also at the mercy of others' free will, the free will of non-human agents, and the complexity of creation. I was a bit confused about God "hardening" Pharoah's heart, but then I finally realized that his heart was hardened because of his lack of response to God. God wanted him to respond. He chose not to. It is often the case with us. How much the Father "causes" to happen in our life to bring us back; to get us back on track - I'm not sure. But I do think it is a mistake to assume that something has happened in the life of a believer because of sin, or because a family member 3 generations back sinned. Much of what we see is consequences. Some of it learned behavior. Some of it unavoidable circumstance. I have a feeling that a very small percentage is God's chastisement, though I may be washed up there.
I do object to the judgemental/critical assessments of believers who feel it is their place to pronounce judgement. I have seen so much damage done by these "well-meaning" believers.
I probably didn't answer your question...just skirted around it. 
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/25/2004 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I don't understand the whole "punishment motif" that runs throughout scripture... What's with that? What does that look like to us?
Selah, I believe we cannot explain why bad things happen to us such as being in a car accident and ending up in the hospital. What I believe to be true is that we most often are left to pay the consequences for our decisions. God allows us to make decisions and these decisions reap outcomes both positive or negative. Just as a healthy parent doesn't bail their child out of every situation, so too God doesn't bail us out. God shows us mercy and love at all times just as a parent does and sometimes I believe God wishes we would have made different choices. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/25/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
Like, do I get in a car crash and end up in that hospital (so that I have a cosmic "time out" to think about my actions?) or do I just have a bad day? or what?
love
selah
I like it!  A cosmic time out.
I think the brief time we spend in this fallen world is kind of like a cosmic time out. A probation time spent away from the paradise we were created for. I don’t think God has to lift a finger to punish us. Just simply remove God from our life and the rest is inventible in this fallen world. God is light, move away from Him and you will be in the company of the enemy’s darkness. It is in this darkness that we find ourselves being slapped  around. Come to think of it... I felt the pain of the darkness just last night as I stubbed my toe trying to sneak in a late night snack. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/25/2004 5:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
so that I have a cosmic "time out" to think about my actions
When we are served lemons we can choose to make lemonade. Our attitude towards circumstances can go a long way, can't it!
I've known of people who were hospitalized due to working too much and not taking breaks -- as though their body was screaming for them to take a vacation. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/25/2004 6:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
so that I have a cosmic "time out" to think about my actions
When we are served lemons we can choose to make lemonade. Our attitude towards circumstances can go a long way, can't it!
I've known of people who were hospitalized due to working too much and not taking breaks -- as though their body was screaming for them to take a vacation.
Hi QFT, it sounds obvious that you’re not working in a children’s hospital. Why are children in a hospital, did they spend too much time working at their lemonade stand? I think our attitude towards God can go a long way, but I think it is natural to feel down when sad things happen to you or your love ones. When these things happen, I don't think God is trying to send us a message. He just tries to make it better. And knowing that, sure can change an attitude.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/25/2004 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Well said!
.
Sparknheart explained:
quote:
I think the brief time we spend in this fallen world is kind of like a cosmic time out. A probation time spent away from the paradise we were created for.
I don’t think God has to lift a finger to punish us. Just simply remove God from our life and the rest is inventible in this fallen world.
God is light, move away from Him and you will be in the company of the enemy’s darkness. It is in this darkness that we find ourselves being slapped around.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/26/2004 1:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid, Feelin, & John,
I think you guys are the only ones hearing me. What I'm trying to understand are the verses in the Bible that actually say God DOES something TO people for the purpose of punishment/discipline/chastisement. Like Sahid said, God really gets angry! Well, if we think we are exempt to his anger or we tell others he is love and whatever is happening to them right now is clearly not from the hand of God... then, shouldn't we be able to also say something about how we claim to know that?
QFT, I'm not personally experiencing punishment. That is not the reason I brought this up. I'm just not satisfied with the way the concept of punishment has been explained in the past (or else I forgot who explained it to my satisfaction - and how they explained it ) Either way, I'm looking for answers again. That's all.
blessings and love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/26/2004 2:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hi QFT, it sounds obvious that you’re not working in a children’s hospital. Why are children in a hospital, did they spend too much time working at their lemonade stand? I think our attitude towards God can go a long way, but I think it is natural to feel down when sad things happen to you or your love ones. When these things happen, I don't think God is trying to send us a message. He just tries to make it better. And knowing that, sure can change an attitude
Sparknheart, I was addressing Selah's quote of having a "cosmic time out" when I referred to making lemonade. I DO believe people grieve. I DO work with hurting people and have a lot of compassion. I too think it's natural to feel down when sad things happen. I DO NOT think God is sending a message and that is why I said to Selah that we cannot explain why a person ends up in a car crash or hospital. God definitely works to "make it better" God is love.
I must have done a poor job explaining because even Selah made the comment that only a few understand what she is asking. Selah, I was attempting to explain that I believe God is love and therefore share "how I do discipline in my head" The way I do "God's discipline" is that often times (not every time) we pay for the decisions we make. We reap what we sow. God doesn't bail us out. This is how I do God's discipline/punishment in my head -- I thought that was what you were asking people to share. I am glad you are not going through a personal time such as this -- did I give you the impression I thought you were?
God bless you all!
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/26/2004 3:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth Selah, I was attempting to explain that I believe God is love and therefore share "how I do discipline in my head" The way I do "God's discipline" is that often times (not every time) we pay for the decisions we make. We reap what we sow. God doesn't bail us out. This is how I do God's discipline/punishment in my head
What I think I'm hearing you say is that the way God does discipline/punishment is by allowing US to make decisions and deal with the outcome of the decisions we make. Is this what you are suggesting?
If it is, then couldn't we say that God is simply doing nothing? Sounds like we would be the ones "doing" in this scenario. So I don't understand how you see that as God disciplining/punishing/chastising those He loves.
I think I understand reap what you sow stuff. To me, that's a different subject. you smoke - you get lung cancer, you lie - you deal with the outcome, you drink - you need a new liver, you have sex with the wrong guy - you get std etc. When someone is dying of lung cancer, do we want to say to them "well, perhaps God is disciplining you by not intervening right now..."
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/26/2004 7:04 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Good questions, Selah...
YOU ASKED:
quote:
When someone is dying of lung cancer, do we want to say to them "well, perhaps God is disciplining you by not intervening right now..."
MY RESPONSE:
If we tell the person who is dying of lung cancer that perhaps
God's lack of intervention is because they are being disciplined and/or punished -- I think we're buying into the old "God is complicit in evil" worldview. (i.e., If God could have cured the cancer but intentionally chose not to, etc., etc.)...
And, just as God is not a participant in evil, He is not responsible for the pain/suffering (in this case, cancer) of His children.
I just don't believe that God operates that way.
Rather...
In knowing Christ, we become attuned to His heart -- and, are increasingly cognizant of His ways. When we repeatedly & methodically choose "in the flesh" responses, A WALL is gradually built -- that impairs our relationship with God.
Of our own free will, WE HAVE CHOSEN (brick-by-brick-by-brick!) to build this wall.
Therefore, we have chosen the end-result.
When I have created such barriers/walls (and, I have), I anguish over the division that exists between myself and My LORD.
It's akin to hell on earth.
It impacts each breath and step that I take. In these dark times, the barrier impedes my dialogue with Jesus (prayer); and, I no longer sing His praises and lift my hands in worship to My LORD...
The Bridge to My LORD (through my choice!) has become GATED -- and, His "river" of joy and peace is no longer is accessible to me.
I believe that when we intentionally build such barriers between God and ourselves -- WE choose and create our own just punishment.
We cannot blame God.
We have no one to blame but ourselves.
~ ~ ~ ~
However, we were also given the choice to restore our relationship with God.
Simply bowing before Our LORD in prayer has the power to
tear the walls down.
Just my two cents...
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
Selah wrote (to Quest):
quote:
What I think I'm hearing you say is that the way God does discipline/punishment is by allowing US to make decisions and deal with the outcome of the decisions we make. Is this what you are suggesting?
If it is, then couldn't we say that God is simply doing nothing? Sounds like we would be the ones "doing" in this scenario. So I don't understand how you see that as God disciplining/punishing/chastising those He loves.
I think I understand reap what you sow stuff. To me, that's a different subject. you smoke - you get lung cancer, you lie - you deal with the outcome, you drink - you need a new liver, you have sex with the wrong guy - you get std etc. When someone is dying of lung cancer, do we want to say to them "well, perhaps God is disciplining you by not intervening right now..."
Edited by - Selah on 07/26/2004 09:12:32 AM
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