 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Did Jesus Die To Grow You A New Leg | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 7/30/2004 4:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for the links, sparknheart. I found the following passage instructive, from the article by Chambers:
quote:
Look at his basic premise for the book, There Were Two Trees In The Garden. His identification of the forbidden tree lays a false foundation for the entire book.
"The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a powerful Biblical model of the Law. As the Apostle Paul declared "The power of sin is the law" (I Corinthians 15:56). This is because it is through the Law that we must derive our knowledge of good and evil. We may wonder how this knowledge brings death until we see the fruit. The knowledge of good and evil kills us by distracting us from the One who is the source of life; the Tree of Life - Jesus. The Tree of Knowledge causes us to focus our attention upon ourselves. Sin is empowered by the law; not just because the evil is revealed but the good as well. It drives us either to corruption or self-righteousness, both of which lead to death." (There Were Two Trees In The Garden, Rick Joyner, pp. 9-10.)
To suggest that this forbidden tree was the Laws of God as given to Moses or any other Bible writer is blasphemous. The "Ten Commandments" are the foundational truths and principles of all of God's revelation. This attack on "God's Laws" shows the direction of major deception in religious circles. Satan cannot present himself as God or present his Antichrist as the "Christ" without first separating Divine revelation or the Holy Truth from experiences in the religious realm. Throughout Joyner's writing there is an attack on individuals that call for doctrinal purity.
Please note this statement by Joyner, "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a powerful Biblical model of the Law." (Ibid, p.10.) There is absolutely no fact in this statement. Only the devil and his evil spirits would dare say such a thing. The eating from "the Tree of Knowledge" was not receiving the law or living by the law, it was disobedience against God's law. It was rejection of the plain commandment of God for a life of one's own experience and control.
The Opposite Of Truth, Satan's Lie
As all New Agers teach this reflect the opposite of truth. Satan is the master imitator. Instead of judging human experiences by the Word of God, this false idea suggests that we judge the Word of God by human experiences. When we base interpretation of truth on our experiences we totally lose the basis of truth. Man is taught throughout Scripture to never trust himself. Yes, this is the opposite of the psychological base of humanistic teaching, but God's Word has always stood opposite the ideas of flesh and human rationale.
The Psalmist said, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereofare the ways of death. " (Proverbs 14:12, KJV). Apostle Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Philippians 3:3, KJV). A man never reaches the spiritual height this side of our future glorification that he dare leave the constant dependency of Holy Scripture. We must weigh every experience by the clear truth of God's book.
Read again what Joyner said about the law of God being the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then read the following truths:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20, KJV).
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." (Romans 7:12, KJV).
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24, KJV).
"I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love." (Psalm 119:113, KJV).
Did Jesus come to fulfill the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" as Joyner has suggested. Is Joyner calling the tree of knowledge holy, for that is what Paul the apostle called the laws of God? Is he calling it "our schoolmaster" as Apostle Paul spoke to the Galatians? David, a man after God's own heart, spoke of God's law and said he loved them. Was David loving "the tree of knowledge" that has brought utter destruction of the human family. We know the answer if we love the truth, but New Agers such as Rick Joyner do not know of what they speak.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/30/2004 4:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Thanks for the links, sparknheart. I found the following passage instructive, from the article by Chambers:
You’re welcome, John.
I don’t think Joyner can be taken too seriously. Bonhoeffer is a different story; I respect what I have read from him. Iconoclast said he had to read  Ethics 5 times to comprehend what Bonhoeffer was saying. . I have yet to read the whole book once. So at this point, I can only say I find the thesis very interesting.
Question  , do you acknowledge that passing judgment on others can be a hindrance towards agape love?
Knowledge of Good & Evil vs. Tree of Life...
Ethics link
| | Back to Top | | |
|
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/30/2004 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Question , do you acknowledge that passing judgment on others can be a hindrance towards agape love?
Is it not passing judgment on "the judgers" when people say those who judge are by definition not loving?
In context, Jesus' words, "Judge not" in Matt. 7 simply can not mean, "Don't discern the truth of a matter, ever," or "Suspend your critical-thinking abilities." Indeed, Christ goes on in that same passage to say: "First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll be able to see clearly enough to help your brother with his speck." The problem is that most people nowadays seem to think that Jesus was commanding an impossibility when He told us to remove the beam from our own eye first.
Further, in the very same passage, Jesus explicitly commands us to "watch out for false prophets," and then proceeds to show how we can tell (judge) a false prophet--by their fruits. How doing that would not be the same thing as making a judgment is not clear to me.
Also, Jesus said in another passage, "Judge RIGHTEOUS judgement." So it seems that the issue is not so easily simplified into the "Don't judge, ever," that one typically hears from people.
How is it not judgmental to tell a Muslim that they do not know the true and living God? How is it not judgmental to tell a person who practices homosexuality that GOD says what they're doing is sinful? It seems unmistakably clear that the "love, not judgment" crowd are simply guilty of logical inconsistency (fuzzy thinking) on this point.
I should hasten to add that I thoroughly enjoy Dr. Boyd's books on the Open View of the future; I just don't see how it can be demonstrated that he's not advocating antinomianism in his "love, not judgment" approach.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/30/2004 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That is why I stand in agreement with Iconoclast, Dr Boyd, and others who promote LOVE.
So you join them in judging me by saying I don't promote love? How typical of those who hold this superspiritual, supposedly nonjudgmental view.
I just popped in for a minute while doing some work online and came upon this statement. I will spend more time reading your post again but I do want to say that I DO NOT judge you, John. You seem to be a very loving person. Why would you think I am judging you? | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/30/2004 1:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Question , do you acknowledge that passing judgment on others can be a hindrance towards agape love?
Is it not passing judgment on "the judgers" when people say those who judge are by definition not loving?
In context, Jesus' words, "Judge not" in Matt. 7 simply can not mean, "Don't discern the truth of a matter, ever," or "Suspend your critical-thinking abilities." Indeed, Christ goes on in that same passage to say: "First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll be able to see clearly enough to help your brother with his speck." The problem is that most people nowadays seem to think that Jesus was commanding an impossibility when He told us to remove the beam from our own eye first.
Further, in the very same passage, Jesus explicitly commands us to "watch out for false prophets," and then proceeds to show how we can tell (judge) a false prophet--by their fruits. How doing that would not be the same thing as making a judgment is not clear to me.
Also, Jesus said in another passage, "Judge RIGHTEOUS judgement." So it seems that the issue is not so easily simplified into the "Don't judge, ever," that one typically hears from people.
How is it not judgmental to tell a Muslim that they do not know the true and living God? How is it not judgmental to tell a person who practices homosexuality that GOD says what they're doing is sinful? It seems unmistakably clear that the "love, not judgment" crowd are simply guilty of logical inconsistency (fuzzy thinking) on this point.
I should hasten to add that I thoroughly enjoy Dr. Boyd's books on the Open View of the future; I just don't see how it can be demonstrated that he's not advocating antinomianism in his "love, not judgment" approach.
Bravo! Thank you.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Hello John,
My question about judgment being a hindrance towards love was indented more in the line of your own personal experience. If you could see judgment sneaking into your own life when love breaks down?
quote:
In context, Jesus' words, "Judge not" in Matt. 7 simply can not mean, "Don't discern the truth of a matter, ever," or "Suspend your critical-thinking abilities." Indeed, Christ goes on in that same passage to say: "First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll be able to see clearly enough to help your brother with his speck." The problem is that most people nowadays seem to think that Jesus was commanding impossibility when He told us to remove the beam from our own eye first.
I find to be more common for people to take the verse out of context by slinging it at others as a diversion tactic instead of searching ones own soul. In its true context, it was intended for the reader.
quote:
Further, in the very same passage, Jesus explicitly commands us to "watch out for false prophets," and then proceeds to show how we can tell (judge) a false prophet--by their fruits. How doing that would not be the same thing as making a judgment is not clear to me.
I think we are asked to discern, not pass judgment. We may stoke up a fire for the heretic today, tomorrow the fire could await us.
I remember a story about some righteous religious characters that accidentally condemned an innocent man. Thinking they caught themselves a true blasphemer, they had him nailed to a cross.
I do agree that we should point out and discern the fruits of all men. But this can be a difficult task, deceitfulness is the name of satan’s game, the hole of the worm can be invisible to the fruit’s exterior. At other times, scars deceive us from tasting the true juices of love.
quote:
How is it not judgmental to tell a Muslim that they do not know the true and living God? How is it not judgmental to tell a person who practices homosexuality that GOD says what they're doing is sinful? It seems unmistakably clear that the "love, not judgment" crowd are simply guilty of logical inconsistency (fuzzy thinking) on this point.
I think we can, and should, differentiate between man passing judgment(condemning) and the judgment that is reserved for God. No man will ever escape God’s judgment. Lord have mercy.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
How are you NOT excluding me from the group that "promotes love?" The clear implication is that I do not promote LOVE, while they do. I'm really not worried too much about who does or doesn't accept me, but I do have a strong sense of when people are being inconsistent with what they SAY they believe, as in this case. One of the things I have consistently noticed is how blind the "non-judgers" are to their own judging of the others who don't fit into their "club."
I would never belong to such a club that would have me as a member. 
| | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/30/2004 6:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by John Earp
How are you NOT excluding me from the group that "promotes love?" The clear implication is that I do not promote LOVE, while they do. I'm really not worried too much about who does or doesn't accept me, but I do have a strong sense of when people are being inconsistent with what they SAY they believe, as in this case. One of the things I have consistently noticed is how blind the "non-judgers" are to their own judging of the others who don't fit into their "club."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would never belong to such a club that would have me as a member.
I say the same thing!
John, my quest is for truth. I want to know truth because I believe it is the truth of Jesus Christ which sets us free. I am NOT interested in judging whether or not you are loving or not. I am not interested in judging your heart nor intentions. I am only interested in finding truth. I find that the more I submit to loving people where they are at, and not putting expectations on where they are at, I find God's life giving freedom. The more I let go and let God, in my life as well as others, the freer I feel in my spirit. The more freedom in Christ I am able to allow inside the more I am free to love.
I do believe that what Iconoclast and Dr. Boyd argue has a lot of merit and it has proven helpful in my quest for truth. It is the knowledge of good and evil that can screw up people and cause people to not feel they can measure up to God. We ALL struggle with imperfections and we ALL FALL SHORT so what point is there in judging the imperfections in ourselves or others. My struggles may look much different from yours yet the truth is we all have imperfections. Since I have my own I am not interested in judging your imperfections. When we open our hearts to the transforming power of the Holy Spirit then GOD can begin to transform the imperfections in us. This is not for us to judge but rather God can judge where to work in us.
I believe that when we get caught up with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we can start to put expectations on where a person is at -- we can judge our own and others imperfections instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to transform. When we try to do the job of the Holy Spirit we are playing gods. We judge those who are "in" and those who are "out" through outward appearances. We begin to believe that because we don't commit "that particular sin" somehow we are more righteous in God's eyes. The truth is that no matter where we are at in our walk (or even if we are at a place where we have been unable to accept Christ's love) we are loved just as we are. It is not us but God who extends grace and healing. When we accept this we experience God's freedom.
John, there is no "in" or "out" in a club -- we are ALL the body of Christ. That is why there is no need to judge or to get life from being "righteous" since we are all part of the body. The eye is no more a part of the body than the arm or the nose. | | Back to Top | | |
|
barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/31/2004 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Icon said:
I believe that when we get caught up with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we can start to put expectations on where a person is at -- we can judge our own and others imperfections instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to transform. When we try to do the job of the Holy Spirit we are playing gods. We judge those who are "in" and those who are "out" through outward appearances. We begin to believe that because we don't commit "that particular sin" somehow we are more righteous in God's eyes. The truth is that no matter where we are at in our walk (or even if we are at a place where we have been unable to accept Christ's love) we are loved just as we are. It is not us but God who extends grace and healing. When we accept this we experience God's freedom.
John, there is no "in" or "out" in a club -- we are ALL the body of Christ. That is why there is no need to judge or to get life from being "righteous" since we are all part of the body. The eye is no more a part of the body than the arm or the nose.
Barryatk:
I believe a major key in what Jesus meant in the MT. 7:1 "Judge not, lest you be judged" and Romans 2 is the thing one points their finger at. If I know of a preacher who is also being an adulterer and discover this, should i say nothing? Is is "judging " for me to speak up? If I too am an adulterer does that mean I must stay silent? Does it mean I don't love if I expose the sin?
I'm not claiming to have all the knowledge here, I just believe that Christ intends none of His followers to be of a spirit of judgmentalism. I'd be breaking Christ's teaching if I JUDGED the preacher. The only one who can really judge him is Jesus. I've got to love him and warn him of his sin while letting Jesus be his judge. I'll not point my finger then at the sinner but at the sin. I won't announce to the public that this man is evil and to be shunned. I'll go humbly to him, realizing that I am subject to the same temptation and weak in my own ways. I'll not have a superior attitude, but hunbly come to appeal to an elder in Christ, with a hope to restore to Grace and repentance... not to castigate or denigrate a servant of God.
Books beside the word that help here:
RT Kendall's "Total Forgiveness"
Derek Prince "judging"?
This is a very close topic to me as some closest to me have judged me. I am off their list as someone to go into deep spiritual things with because I've adopted teachers and streams of ministry that they have also judged, casting together any that partake of such streams and deciding it's all so evil and deceptive that they will steer clear of me and such teachings. I have been the same way in my life and deeple regret the blessings i missed.
Blessings All | | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/31/2004 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If I know of a preacher who is also being an adulterer and discover this, should i say nothing? Is is "judging " for me to speak up? If I too am an adulterer does that mean I must stay silent? Does it mean I don't love if I expose the sin?
I'm not claiming to have all the knowledge here, I just believe that Christ intends none of His followers to be of a spirit of judgmentalism. I'd be breaking Christ's teaching if I JUDGED the preacher. The only one who can really judge him is Jesus. I've got to love him and warn him of his sin while letting Jesus be his judge. I'll not point my finger then at the sinner but at the sin. I won't announce to the public that this man is evil and to be shunned. I'll go humbly to him, realizing that I am subject to the same temptation and weak in my own ways
I realize that you believe Iconoclast to have made the statement you quoted in your post but it was actually me so I will respond to your above questions.
We are to love above ALL else. We are to approach others with a with a spirit of love and humility. So my initial question is what is your purpose in pointing out their sin and who are you in their life? Do you have merit in their life -- are you involved with the person?
You speak of a public figure who is deceiving the congregation by having this affair while remaining in leadership so this is a different scenario from a private one due to the nature of their role in the church. I appreciate you stating that you would talk with them privately while realizing you too can fall into the same temptation -- this portrays a spirit of humility on your part. The bible makes it clear that we are to approach a person in this type of scenario in private first. If, after approaching them privately, they hear us we have accomplished our role. However, if the person is not open to our exhortation we are to then go the elders of the church.... Are you familiar with the verses I am talking about? | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/1/2004 1:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, God is love.
Love - the only thing that will endure the purifying fire of God’s judgment. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/1/2004 4:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Yes, God is love.
And yet God says He will judge all someday. So love is not inherently inconsistent with judgment.
God?
We were created in the image of God. Are you implying we inherit all of God’s attributes? We are not “just like God”. The fall clearly demonstrates the consequence of such desires.
Genesis 3:4-5
"You won't die!" the serpent hissed. "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God, knowing everything, both good and evil." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/1/2004 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Bonhoeffer starts his thesis by noting that since Jesus categorically said "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and Paul says that we should judge all things there must be two kinds of judgement. One he calls a spurious activity of man and the other he calls pure action. He notes that Jesus encounter with the Pharisees exemplifies this "bad" kind of judgement. That, in fact, this bad kind of judgement is the very essence of fallen man. It is the judgement that springs forth from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Greg has made the observation that the word for judgement is "krinos" which literally means "to separate". He goes on to note that one way to understand these two kinds of judgement is that one is related to separating from people (as in judgement of them or over them) and the other is related to separating all things into helpful or unhelpful, loving or unloving towards our neighbor.
So what is "righteous judgement?" In my view it is separating things always and only from the perspective of how something helps or hurts our fellow man. It is nothing but always choosing to love another.
Another way to look at this distinction is what I call the "legal view" versus the "love view". The legal view sees the law as being supreme. It views human action and behavior in terms of compliance with this law. The love view sees humans as having supreme worth in God's eyes. It sees the law as subservient to humans - as something there to help them - and when it isn't helpful - it is disregarded. A simple example of this is when Jesus broke the sabbath by picking heads of grain or when Jesus broke the sabbath to heal a woman. Jesus sums up the essence of the love view when after being challenged by the Pharisees regarding His lawless behavior He responds by saying that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. Another example of this is when Jesus simply announces to a man that his sins are forgiven. Again, completely lawless behavior when seen through the lens of the legal view. Why? Because the legal view insists that the law is above man. That man must first make some sort of reparation or at least repentence before being forgiven. Jesus just unilaterally forgives ALL the man's sins on the spot without even being asked. The man was actually there for healing - so he could walk again.
Another way to look at these distinctions is to ask, what is the goal? Is love the goal or is law the goal? The legal view sees law as the goal. It cannot even understand that love is a distinct goal from the law as it subsumes love into the law. It sees love as a law - as a legal requirement that the law imposes upon us. But if this is so, then we must say that law is the goal and not love. But then, how can love fulfill all the law and prophets if it is but a requirement of the law? Only something outside the law can fulfill the law.
Love fulfills the law because love is the aim of law. Law is meaningless without a goal, without something outside of it that it points to. Law points to love. Thus love fulfills the law.
Also, how can love ever be a legal requirement? These notions are anti-thetical to one another. Love must be freely chosen, else it is not love. To love another in order to fulfill a legal requirement, in order to obey the law, is not love at all but simply the desire to be in compliance with the law.
An example that illustrates the distinction between the legal view and the love view is how divorced and remarried people were treated by the church 50 years ago and how they are treated today.
Jesus quite clearly says that if you are divorced and remarried you are living in adultery. 50 years ago the church saw this through the legal view and insisted that divorced and remarried people divorce their current spouse and either get back together with their original spouse or remain celibate the rest of their lives. This was, of course, quite unloving and unhelpful to divorced and remarried folks. It split many churches before rational people came to see that this was not the way forward. Today, this is pretty much a non-issue. It is hardly debated anymore. Why? Because people stop judging unrighteously about this issue and started using righteous judgement. They started looking at the real situation and real people's lives and the fruit that was produced in second marriages. They judged (krinos) - they separated - what was truly helpful to people in this situation from what was unhelpful.
John Earp is right. We need to exercise righteous judgement which is nothing but viewing / judging / separating all things into what is helpful and what is unhelpful to the actual individual in the actual situation that we find them in.
And how do we know whether we are being helpful or unhelpful? Jesus tells us that we will know this by our fruit. We will know it by what results occur. If people are actually helped by us then we have been helpful and if people are not helped but hindered then we have not been helpful.
There are two kinds of judgment. One is true action the other is spurious activity. One comes out of love the other comes out of our own knowledge of good and evil. One is helpful the other is not. One is life the other is death.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/2/2004 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Greg has made the observation that the word for judgement is "krinos" which literally means "to separate". He goes on to note that one way to understand these two kinds of judgement is that one is related to separating from people (as in judgement of them or over them) and the other is related to separating all things into helpful or unhelpful, loving or unloving towards our neighbor.
So what is "righteous judgement?" In my view it is separating things always and only from the perspective of how something helps or hurts our fellow man. It is nothing but always choosing to love another.
I appreciate your post, Iconolcast, because in my spirit I knew this to be true but I didn't know how to put it into words.
This may be a bold statement but for those who argue against what Iconoclast and Greg Boyd teach in this area I want to give a testimony. I had reservations in regard to the "love without judgment" side for quite a while. I believed it would make for a complacent Christian who allowed anything and in so doing would encourage sin. I was totally caught up in the "law" The bible is quite clear, after all, on sin so I questioned how people like Iconoclast and Greg Boyd could "take sin so lightly" but then I had a light bulb experience where I began to understand what I had been opposing. Iconoclast, Greg Boyd, and others were promoting God's greatest command to love and I was falling prey to the Satan's trap of judging others. God loves EVERYONE where they are at. God calls EVERYONE despite the fact that we all fall short and have our imperfections. We are to "try" to love just as God does. When we judge we are not loving people where they are at. I cannot love you while I am busy judging you and trying to figure out where you are sinning.
Here's the truth -- Satan wants to keep us oppressed. Satan wants us to live by the law. He thinks it is pretty great when people get so caught up in the law they never measure up nor does anyone else in their own eyes to God's love and approval. Satan loves it when he can make a person feel so unrighteous that they believe they are unworthy to walk with God. Satan loves the law because he wrings love out of it in just the right places. People are left to feel like they cannot live up to God.
In my own personal testimony, when I had the lightbulb experience, the blinders were removed from my eyes. I became free! "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is FREEDOM" I no longer had to work at trying to figure out who to judge or who was "in" -- I was free to love ALL people who I came into contact with and have no exceptions. I was able to love freely. This has changed my life and brought me closer to Christ. I now am concerned with judging whether something is hurtful or helpful for the other person but not with judging the person. The truth is Satan doesn't want this secret out because he knows there is death in the knowledge game just as he knew in the garden. He convinced Adam and Eve that they needed the knowledge from the fruit tree so they could be equal to God instead of just "being" in the garden. Satan knew that Adam and Eve would die if they ate and so he blinded their eyes just as he had mine.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/3/2004 4:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry John but I don’t understand your distinction between discerning and condemning. What form of judgment are you referring to when you state “love and judgment are not by definition mutually exclusive”? Your quote “God will judge all someday” implies He will judge people. We are led to believe, God’s judgment, will separate people by condemning some. Are you overlooking the dichotomy of condemning and discerning? If you accept judging people (not things) to be the spurious “bad” type of judging that Iconoclast points out, then it would be a contradiction to continue on by saying that Jesus and the NT want us to exercise this type of discernment/judgment, righteous judgment. It seems your mixing the two types of judgment. So what I stated is not beside the point, if you choose to condemn people. Using the analogy of God judging (condemning) all someday is not the same as Jesus asking us to judge (discern). They are mutually exclusive, apples and oranges IMHO.
On the flip side of the coin, you might not believe God condemns anyone on judgment day. You might say, God simply discerns the wheat from the weeds.
Peace,
Mark
| | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/3/2004 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hopefully everyone can agree that the actually helpful/hurtful results can only be known in an eternal kind of way.
Do you mean to say ONLY BE KNOWN IN THE ETERNAL or do you really mean to say SOMETIMES BE KNOWN IN THE ETERNAL?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/3/2004 5:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Hopefully everyone can agree that the actually helpful/hurtful results can only be known in an eternal kind of way.
Do you mean to say ONLY BE KNOWN IN THE ETERNAL or do you really mean to say SOMETIMES BE KNOWN IN THE ETERNAL?
So when can the "helpfu/hurtful results" be known?
How about always known in the eternal and sometimes known in the short term (this life). | | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/3/2004 5:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How about always known in the eternal and sometimes known in the short term (this life).
Sounds great! ALWAYS known in the eternal -- of course.
Thanks for the correction in wording. | | Back to Top | | |
| 166 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:02 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|