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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/4/2004 4:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
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Hopefully everyone can agree that the actually helpful/hurtful results can only be known in an eternal kind of way.
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What I think I mean is "with the eternal in mind" .
This is exactly why clarity can be so crucial in conversation. I didn't read that at all. Thank you might-be-don!
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Laika
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| Posted 8/4/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/4/2004 5:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
OK, I'm still confused. New leg or not?
Yes, it is a little confusing. Bottom line, don’t’ judge the chicken by the taste, just love the chicken. Ascribing UNSURPASSABLE worth to the legless chicken is all that matters.
P.S.
I hope you like wings. 
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quest for truth
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| Posted 8/4/2004 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Laikaquote:
OK, I'm still confused. New leg or not?
Jesus didn't die to give the chicken a new leg. Jesus didn't come to perform miracles for the sake of the miracle. Jesus came to give life. Jesus died on the cross to give life. Life is found in becoming transformed into the person God made each person to be whether that be a one legged or a two legged person. As we become transformed by the working of the Holy Spirit, and as we experience God's love, we are then set free to love ourselves and others. Jesus died to set us free whether that be with one leg or two.
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/5/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Unsurpassable worth. Interesting concept. How is it possible that anyone can be worth more than GOD? Only He has "unsurpassable worth." Any worth any other persons may have is derived from Him.
Give it your all, not to be surpassed in that moment of time.
Matthew 25:45 (NIV)
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
God will separate his obedient followers from pretenders and unbelievers. The real evidence of our belief is the way we act. To treat all persons we encounter as if they are Jesus. Such actions separate true disciples of Christ from pretenders and unbelievers.
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John Earp
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| Posted 8/5/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Unsurpassable worth. Interesting concept. How is it possible that anyone can be worth more than GOD? Only He has "unsurpassable worth." Any worth any other persons may have is derived from Him.
Give it your all, not to be surpassed in that moment of time.
Matthew 25:45 (NIV)
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
God will separate his obedient followers from pretenders and unbelievers. The real evidence of our belief is the way we act. To treat all persons we encounter as if they are Jesus. Such actions separate true disciples of Christ from pretenders and unbelievers.
Why then does Jesus tell us to watch out for false prophets, who come as wolves in sheeps' clothing? Are we to treat a false prophet as if he were Jesus? Additionally, even JESUS did not treat everyone exactly the same. He comforted some, corrected some, and sternly rebuked others (but all was done in love, for God IS love).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/5/2004 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Why then does Jesus tell us to watch out for false prophets, who come as wolves in sheeps' clothing? Are we to treat a false prophet as if he were Jesus?
False Prophet, we have two different issues here, one is the falsely and one is a person. We are taught to watch out for what is false. By all means, oppose what is false and defend what is true. Oppose their false message, but defend the truth of love as commanded by God.
P.S.
John, did you read what I posted on the end of the previous page of this thread? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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| Posted 8/5/2004 6:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Mark,
Sorry I missed this post. I will do my best to respond to what you seem to be saying.
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Sorry John but I don’t understand your distinction between discerning and condemning.
One is to discern, one is to "pass sentence."
quote:
What form of judgment are you referring to when you state “love and judgment are not by definition mutually exclusive”?
Your quote “God will judge all someday” implies He will judge people. We are led to believe, God’s judgment, will separate people by condemning some. Are you overlooking the dichotomy of condemning and discerning?
No, I'm simply saying that even judging in the sense of condemning is not antithetical to God's love, and we are to emulate his love. For instance, a person could be an executioner and be righteously loving in doing so. (Love as defined as unselfish goodwill towards all). The good of society may require that *someone* be the one to flip the switch on the electric chair. The executioner, in such a case is *serving* society, and is acting in the best interest of ALL.
quote:
If you accept judging people (not things) to be the spurious “bad” type of judging that Iconoclast points out, then it would be a contradiction to continue on by saying that Jesus and the NT want us to exercise this type of discernment/judgment, righteous judgment.
I don't guess I understand what you're saying in this sentence. Could you break it down a bit?
One thing I can say is that I completely deny the whole premise Iconoclast and Doc lay down on this, that it is perfectly contrary to Scripture, Reason, and Experience. So I simply don't agree with the way your sentence begins at least, for you begin by assuming that Iconoclast's position is correct, which I do not.
quote:
It seems your mixing the two types of judgment.
Does what I wrote above clarify to you that I'm not mixing the two types of judgment?
quote:
So what I stated is not beside the point, if you choose to condemn people. Using the analogy of God judging (condemning) all someday is not the same as Jesus asking us to judge (discern). They are mutually exclusive, apples and oranges IMHO.
Actually, it seems to me that the fact that God is love AND at the same time God is the ultimate judge of the whole world makes it clear that these two things (love and condemnatory judgment) are definitely NOT mutually exclusive, unless you want me to believe that God sins (violates love) when he judges people.
quote:
On the flip side of the coin, you might not believe God condemns anyone on judgment day. You might say, God simply discerns the wheat from the weeds.
Having people tossed into the Lake of Fire doesn't sound like God is condemning people in doing it?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/6/2004 10:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello John,
Distinguishing between judgment and discernment is the core issue we need to sort out if we want to overcome the hurdle of our discussion. There is an antithetical problem that needs to be realized, a conundrum within Scripture that we need to resolve before we can move forward. This conundrum in Scripture is how we are taught not to judge in one verse and then told to go ahead and judge in another verse. Sometimes even in the very next line (see Matthew).
No, Don’t Judge:
Matthew 7:1-5 (NIV)
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
James 4:11-12 (NIV)
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. [12] There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
Romans 14:1-13 (NIV)
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. [6] He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. [7] For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
[9] For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. [10] You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. [11] It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
[12] So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
[13] Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
1 Cor. 4:1-5 (NIV)
So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
John 8:14-18 (NIV)
Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. [15] You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. [16] But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. [17] In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. [18] I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
John 12:47-48 (NIV)
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. [48] There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
Yes, Do Judge:
Matthew 7:6 (NIV)
[6] "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Luke 12:57-59 (NIV)
"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? [58] As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. [59] I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
John 5:28-30 (NIV)
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [29] and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. [30] By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 7:21-24 (NIV)
Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. [22] Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. [23] Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? [24] Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."
1 Cor. 5:12-13 (NIV)
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? [13] God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
1 Cor. 6:1-6 (NIV)
If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? [6] But instead, one brother goes to law against another--and this in front of unbelievers!
Ephes. 4:14-16 (NIV)
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. [15] Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. [16] From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Hebrews 5:11-14 (NIV)
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. [12] In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! [13] Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. [14] But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Can you separate judgment from discernment? Christology is called into play when we are taught to be like Jesus the man, the sinless man, the true image of God, the second Adam. But, we are not called to be like Jesus the God. That was the mistake of the first Adam, he wanted to be just like God. Can you categorically affirm that we are called to love just like God will love on final judgment day? If not, why do you persist in drawing the correlation between God’s judgment and love? God is God, he can judge and love at the same time, he can see into a man's heart, we can't.
Peace,
Mark
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John Earp
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| Posted 8/6/2004 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Can you separate judgment from discernment? Christology is called into play when we are taught to be like Jesus the man, the sinless man, the true image of God, the second Adam. But, we are not called to be like Jesus the God.
Jesus said "be ye therefore perfect, even as you FATHER in heaven is perfect." In context, he is referring to loving one's enemies, which is clearly a moral issue. 1 Peter says, "Be ye therefore holy, for I am holy," 1 John says, "he that lives in love lives in God, for God IS love," and "herein is our love made perfect, for as He is, so are we in this world." So we are in fact called to be morally LIKE God in Scripture.
quote:
That was the mistake of the first Adam, he wanted to be just like God. Can you categorically affirm that we are called to love just like God will love on final judgment day?
1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. 19We love because he first loved us.
I don't think God's judgment in all cases waits until Judgment Day. Scripture is full of examples of God's judgment being meted out on people.
quote:
If not, why do you persist in drawing the correlation between God’s judgment and love?
I am simply and only trying to show that the two things are not mutually exclusive, as Icon has claimed.
quote:
God is God, he can judge and love at the same time, he can see into a man's heart, we can't.
Yes, that is true. But what is "discerning" if not making a judgment about another's motives and character (heart).
Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/6/2004 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
If not, why do you persist in drawing the correlation between God’s judgment and love?
I am simply and only trying to show that the two things are not mutually exclusive, as Icon has claimed.
If love and judgment are never mutually exclusive, then why doesn’t the bible ever say, don't love each other, like it sometimes says about judging each other?
John, are we getting anywhere?
Please help me. I pointed out where Scripture instructs us to judge and then it turns around and says no. No, no don’t judge. Is the bible contradicting itself? Should we just throw it out the window or is they’re something going on here . Do we need to differentiate between two different types of judgment?  Yes, No?
Thanks,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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| Posted 8/6/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
If not, why do you persist in drawing the correlation between God’s judgment and love?
I am simply and only trying to show that the two things are not mutually exclusive, as Icon has claimed.
If love and judgment are never mutually exclusive, then why doesn’t the bible ever say, don't love each other, like it sometimes says about judging each other?
I didn't say they were never mutually exclusive (for of course someone may be judging with an unloving heart), just that they are not by definition mutually exclusive automatically.
quote:
John, are we getting anywhere?
Where are we going?
quote:
Please help me. I pointed out where Scripture instructs us to judge and then it turns around and says no. No, no don’t judge. Is the bible contradicting itself?
I certainly don't think so.
quote:
Should we just throw it out the window or is they’re something going on here. Do we need to differentiate between two different types of judgment? Yes, No?
Yes, of course there is a distinction between the two basic different types of judgment--"to condemn" and "to discern." I have said that several times in this thread.
That said, there still are cases in which even condemnation is not by definition unloving. (As in, when God has rebels hurled head over heels into the lake of fire, or when we tell someone that's where they'll end up if they don't change their ways).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/6/2004 6:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Yes, of course there is a distinction between the two basic different types of judgment--"to condemn" and "to discern." I have said that several times in this thread.
Good John, I'm sorry I missed it. 
Are you saying that’s what’s going on when the bible seems to contradict its self
Night,
Mark
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John Earp
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| Posted 8/6/2004 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Yes, of course there is a distinction between the two basic different types of judgment--"to condemn" and "to discern." I have said that several times in this thread.
Good John, I'm sorry I missed it.
Are you saying that’s what’s going on when the bible seems to contradict its self
Night,
Mark
The following is an excerpt from an article on this very subject that I found some time ago:
We are commanded to "anakrino" (discern)-- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh,or of the devil?"
We are commanded to "diakrino" (discern) -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.
We are not to "krisis" (final judgment) -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
We are sometimes appointed to "krites" (judge) -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.
We are never, ever, to "hupo-krites" (be a hypocrite) -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.
We always to "kritikos" -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.
(End quote)
When we tell someone that GOD's word says what they're doing is wrong, it is not WE who are judging them, it is GOD that judges them.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 8/7/2004 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart
God is God, he can judge and love at the same time, he can see into a man's heart, we can't.
John Earp
Yes, that is true. But what is "discerning" if not making a judgment about another's motives and character (heart).
Iconoclast
I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I do not believe that we can make judgements about another’s “motives and character (heart)”. I do not believe that this is what “discerning” or “separating all things” means. I believe that this is a judgement that only God can make because only God can know this. I believe that this is the meaning of the prohibition regarding the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Only God can make judgements regarding another’s heart. When humans do this we separate from one another and thus we separate from God. It is taking the place of God. It is not “righteous judgement” but is rather hypocritical judgement.
Only God can both judge another’s heart and love them at the same time. Us humans are prohibited from this because we cannot love at the same time and thus, we die.
John Earp
When we tell someone that GOD's word says what they're doing is wrong, it is not WE who are judging them, it is GOD that judges them.
Iconoclast
I disagree. God’s word is there for us to DO. It is not there for us to use to judge another. Why? Because we do not have God’s word itself. WE only have our own interpretation of it. Thus when we use God’s word to judge another we are really using our own interpretation of that word and thus we are really judging out of our own knowledge of good and evil.
Let’s take an example of this. The Pharisees interpreted the commandment regarding the sabbath day as meaning that no work could be done on the sabbath day. They then interpreted what it means to work. They then applied this interpretation to Jesus healing another person on the sabbath day as work and thus judged the Lord of Life.
How about another example. Years ago the church interpreted Jesus statement that divorce and remarriage is the sin of adultery to mean that anyone who is divorced and remarried is “living in the sin of adultery”. And that since Paul said that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven that the remarried couple must break up and either go back to their original spouse or remain celibate the rest of their lives. The church (by and large) no longer insists on this. Did the word of God change or our interpretation of it?
And we could go on and on and on…
THIS is why we are commanded not to judge. Because when WE judge we judge with beams in our eye and yet think that we are judging “righteously” as though our interpretation of the word of God IS the word of God. But this is simply not so.
When we finally take the BEAM out of our own eye we come to realize that our brother only has a little old speck in their eye. And as we learn to let go of our judgement, we come to realize that it is not ours to judge to begin with. It is the Lord’s.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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| Posted 8/7/2004 9:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Because we do not have God’s word itself. WE only have our own interpretation of it
AMEN again Iconoclast!
I have heard a lot of talk on the 'Da Vinci Code'. It makes me wonder if there are things God wanted to say in the bible that were cut. Perhaps we don't know it all, as we would like to believe. Perhaps because we can only see through a glass dimly we are limited in our knowledge therefore need to leave judging up to the supreme judge. Perhaps we are better off just serving and loving people. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 8/9/2004 8:50 PM (GMT -6) | | QFT: Perhaps we are better off just serving and loving people.
Doc: AMEN to THAT one Quest. If I committed myself without reservation to simply replicating Calvary to all people at all times without condition ("following Jesus") I wouldn't have the time, inclination or ability to separate myself (krino) from them. The "me/them" wall would fall. We only give ourselves "the space" necessary to playing God and drawing omniscient conclusions about people when we distance ourselves from them -- that is, when we disobey God and are not being fully emersed in serving and loving people.
This, I believe, is an expression of the truth that we are to eat of the tree of life and obey the prohibition not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If I loose my life, with all its idolatrous judgments about myself and others, I find my life. If I seek to gain my life, through all my self-serving judgments about myself and others, I loose it.
Life is found in our REPENTING of our RELIGION!
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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| Posted 8/10/2004 12:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If I loose my life, with all its idolatrous judgments about myself and others, I find my life. If I seek to gain my life, through all my self-serving judgments about myself and others, I loose it.
AMEN! I personally need to be a little more concientious of how I fall into the trap of trying to find my life through judging others and MYSELF. I think it's a skill that must be practiced -- just be, love, and serve without trying to do God's job and in so doing life is found!
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 8/11/2004 1:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quest for truth
I think it's a skill that must be practiced -- just be, love, and serve without trying to do God's job and in so doing life is found!
Iconoclast
I agree QFT. It is a skill and like all skills it takes practice, practice, practice. Also, if you want to learn a new skill fast - like golf or tennis or what have you - it is really helpful to get a good coach who can give you feedback about where you are progressing well, what areas you need to work on and what specific conscious actions you can take that will build up a skill area.
I wonder if this is one aspect of what a church community is supposed to be about - providing folks with good coaches. And it seems to me that the good coaches would be easy to spot. Wouldn't they be the people that everyone feels loved by - that everyone respects? The people that no one seems to have a problem with? I wonder how many of these folks there are?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/11/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
We are never, ever, to "hupo-krites" (be a hypocrite) -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.
Hello John,
What is your source for this "same speck" stuff?
Matt. 7. "first remove the log from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to help your brother."
Sorry John, I still don't see the word "SAME". The same sin? | | Back to Top | | |
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