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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/29/2004 5:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Interesting way of overcoming. Sitting still.
From George Fox's Journal
quote:
After this I returned to Nottinghamshire again, and went into the Vale of Beavor. And as I went, I preached repentance to the people: and there were many convinced in the Vale of Beavor, in many towns; for I stayed some weeks among them. And one morning, as I was sitting by the fire, a great cloud came over me, and a temptation beset me: and I sat still. And it said; all things come by nature; and the elements and stars came over me; so that I was in a mnner quite clouded with it: but inasmuch as I sat still, and said nothing, the people of the house perceived nothing. And as I sat still under it, and let it alone, a living hope arose in me, and a true voice arose in me which said; there is a living God, who made all things. And immediately the cloud and temptation vanished away, and life rose over it all, and my heart was glad, and I praised the living God. And after some time I met with some people, that had such a notion, that there was no God, but that all things came by nature. And I had great dispute with them and overturned them; and made some of them confess, that there was a living God: then I saw, that it was good, that I had gone through that exercise. And we had great Meetings in those parts; for the Power of the Lord broke through in that side of the country. And returning into Nottinghamshire, I found there a company of shattered Baptists, and others; and the Lord's Power wrought mightily, and gathered many of them.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 7/29/2004 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | | What are "shattered baptists?" http://www.strecorsoc.org/gfox/ch02.html | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 7/29/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | "shattered baptists"
Quote: The Arminian or Free-Will Baptists were closest to the Quakers because of the large measure of spontaneity in their worship. Many of these, whom George Fox called “shattered Baptists,” became Friends, yet they and the Quakers railed at each other. For example the Quakers put out a pamphlet entitled The Boastful Baptist Dismounted and the Beast Disarmed while the Baptists replied with The Quaker Quasht and His Quarrel Quelled. In a similar vein we find Barclay saying, “Non-conformists are more embittered and prejudiced against us than any other men.” This shows that the attacks on the Quakers came more from the Puritans than from Anglicans...
NOT A LOT OF QUITE GOING ON 
(Live by the sword, die by the sword.) | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/29/2004 9:03 AM (GMT -6) | | billzbob
Thanks for the insight on the shattered baptists and for the link. I love that portion of his journal.
Where did you get your quote?
You are right, Quakers spoke and published with great fervor in response to their accusers.
I thought the phrase "shattered baptist" would draw out some but the below portion of the previous quote is the intended focus, though gathering the shattered baptists into the fold is neat. Its the first time I have notice that phrase in reading Fox.
quote:
And one morning, as I was sitting by the fire, a great cloud came over me, and a temptation beset me: and I sat still. And it said; all things come by nature; and the elements and stars came over me; so that I was in a manner quite clouded with it: but inasmuch as I sat still, and said nothing, the people of the house perceived nothing. And as I sat still under it, and let it alone, a living hope arose in me, and a true voice arose in me which said; there is a living God, who made all things. And immediately the cloud and temptation vanished away, and life rose over it all, and my heart was glad, and I praised the living God.
Peace
Ron
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/29/2004 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't get the point of the quote: is it out of context? Fox sits still, has doubts, then debates with others and wins some over. Is the point that he sat still? Or that he won some over? I don't get it.
Did he overcome, or did God? if he did through inactivity, was it only because he was passive about it? Was God in some way part of his sitting still? I still don't get it...
Cool rhymes in the titles there.....
Resist the devil and he will flee from you...is that the point? | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/29/2004 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | feelinahole
quote:
I don't get the point of the quote: is it oput of context? Fox sits still, has doubts, then debates with others and wins some over. Is the point that he sat still? Or that he won some over? I don't get it.
Ron
The point is overcoming temptations with quiet confidence in God. It is like a steadfast trust. Instead of thinking God has forsaken you in a trial, just continue to trust in His faithful love instead of reacting from fear.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/29/2004 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | I just "did my thing" in posting some quotes from Athanasias' "Life of Anthony." www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3535 It should be taken WITH his "On the Incarnation." Behr points out that Anthony is NOT "against" the flesh -- that is later and more "Roman Catholic" or "Augustinian". For Anthony and for Athanasias it is "Christ in us" (Like the Sunday School song: "It's no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth in me...he lives, he lives, Jesus is alive in me...") that is Christianity. First, Christ is the "incarnate word" and then we are en-God-ed. Anthnoy's monasticism is not flesh-denying. It is Christ's victory worked out in the flesh. Just like in Jesus the fictory over death and its "sting"--sin--was accomplished during his whole life.
This, I thought paralleled this thread. Though I don't know whether Fox awa flesh-denying or not. But then this thread is just getting going.....and I can learn.
"Jesus is alive in me..."
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/29/2004 4:11 PM (GMT -6) | | POW
quote:
First, Christ is the "incarnate word" and then we are en-God-ed. Anthnoy's monasticism is not flesh-denying. It is Christ's victory worked out in the flesh. Just like in Jesus the fictory over death and its "sting"--sin--was accomplished during his whole life.
This, I thought paralleled this thread. Though I don't know whether Fox awa flesh-denying or not. But then this thread is just getting going.....and I can learn.
"Jesus is alive in me..."
Ron
If you mean by flesh denying that Fox thought the human body was to be denied, no. If you mean flesh denying that the prince of the power of the air the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience was to be denied, yes. He said he saw two desires in himself, one toward the creature and the other toward God. His loyalty was Godward. I think we are testifying about the same thing. Its just that the same words have different meanings for different people in different generations, ect. You know.
The discipline of waiting upon God was the spiritual worship of the early Quaker and this was to allow Christ to live in and through them. When gathered together for worship they would silence and still self will, with its imaginations, and thoughts while in confident trust wait for the life, power, and spirit of Jesus to rise up in them. The experience of this would be like a gift of the Spirit in manifestation in the assembly. So the whole church would be edified. Since Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us, so in a trial, instead of joining with the temptation, the I yet not I (Gal. 2:20), would trust Christ the seed of God, to save by His life. The initial quote I posted gives testimony to the reality of Christ in us in Fox's journal. The journal is full of this covenant reality of God's faithful saving power as people trusted Him. There is great suffering in the story of the early Friends as well, but in their weakness the power of Christ was with them. When Christ spoke through them people would tremble. All of this they knew in experience. They were exhorted to possess what they profess.
My point of posting on the spiritual warfare threads this account was to remind us of a way of warfare that trusts Jesus by waiting, sitting still, in patience on God, for Him to manifest his promise to bless the nations through His seed and to make the world right through the church of Jesus. Jesus saves.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/31/2004 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks John.
The following quote is from Robert Barclay's "Apology". The chapter on Worship. It details the process and reason the early Friends began the meetings waiting in silence. The purpose was not just to have a quiet meeting, as you will read, but for Christ to have His way in the meeting.
quote:
§VII. As there can be nothing more opposite to the natural will and wisdom of man than this silent waiting upon God, so neither can it be obtained nor rightly comprehended by man but as he layeth down his own wisdom and will so as to be content to be thoroughly subject to God. And therefore it was not preached, nor can be so practised, but by such as find no outward ceremony, no observations, no words, yea not the best and purest words, even the words of Scripture, able to satisfy their weary and afflicted souls; because where all these may be, the life, power, and virtue which make such things effectual may be wanting. Such, I say, were necessitated to cease from all outwards and to be silent before the Lord, and being directed to that inward principle of Life and Light in themselves as the most excellent teacher, which "can never be removed into a corner,"a came thereby to be learned to wait upon God in the measure of life and grace received from him, and to cease from their own forward words and actings in the natural willing and comprehension and feel after this inward Seed of Life; that, as it moveth, they may move with it and be acted by its power and influenced, whether to pray, preach or sing. And so from this principle of man's being silent and not acting in the things of God of himself until thus acted by God's Light and Grace in the heart, did naturally spring that manner of sitting silent together and waiting together upon the Lord. For many thus principled, meeting together in the pure fear of the Lord, did not apply themselves presently to speak, pray, or sing, &c., being afraid to be found acting forwardly in their own wills, but each made it their work to retire inwardly to the measure of Grace in themselves, not only being silent as to words but even abstaining from all their own thoughts, imaginations and desires, so watching in a holy dependence upon the Lord and meeting together not only outwardly in one place but thus inwardly in one Spirit and in one name of Jesus, which is his Power and Virtue. They come thereby to enjoy and feel the arisings of this Life, which, as it prevails in each particular, becomes as a flood of refreshment and overspreads the whole meeting, for man and man's part and wisdom being denied and chained down in every individual, and God exalted, and his Grace in dominion in the heart, thus his Name comes to be one in all, and his glory breaks forth and covers all; and there is such a holy awe and reverence upon every soul that if the natural part should arise in any, or the wise part, or what is not one with the Life, it would presently be chained down and judged out. And when any are through the breaking forth of this power constrained to utter a sentence of exhortation or praise, or to breathe to the Lord in prayer, then all are sensible of it; for the same Life in them answers to it "as in water face answereth to face."b This is that divine and spiritual worship which the world neither knoweth nor understandeth, which the vulture's eye seeth not into. Yet many and great are the advantages which my soul with many others have tasted of hereby, and which would be found of all such as would seriously apply themselves hereunto. For when people are gathered thus together, not merely to hear men nor depend upon them, but all are inwardly taught to stay their minds upon the Lord and wait for his appearance in their hearts, thereby the forward working of the spirit of man is stayed and hindered from mixing itself with the worship of God; and the form of this worship is so naked and void of all outward and worldly splendor that all occasion for man's wisdom to be exercised in that superstition and idolatry hath no lodging here; and so there being also an inward quietness and retiredness of mind, the witness of God ariseth in the heart, and the Light of Christ shineth whereby the soul cometh to see its own condition. And there being many joined together in this same work, there is an inward travail and wrestling; and also, as the measure of Grace is abode in, an overcoming of the power and spirit of darkness; and thus we are often greatly strengthened and renewed in the spirits of our minds without a word, and we enjoy and possess the holy fellowship and "communion of the body and blood of Christ," by which our inward man is nourished and fed. Which makes us not to dote upon outward water and bread and wine in our spiritual things. Now as many thus gathered together grow up in the strength, power, and virtue of Truth, and as Truth comes thus to have victory & dominion in their souls, then they receive an utterance & speak steadily to the edification of their brethren, and the pure Life hath a free passage through them, and what is thus spoken edifieth the body indeed.
At one time George Fox was silent more than 3 hours while a multitude of people waited for him to speak. This is so foreign to us today and I know of no preacher or congregation that has the patience to wait upon God in this manner. Nevertheless the promise is valid. Maybe it just needs validation.
quote:
Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
Isaiah 30:16 But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
Isaiah 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.
www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/apology/index.html
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | Ron, thank you for posting what you are thinking about. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/31/2004 9:08 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/2/2004 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/3/2004 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | feelinahole
quote:
(I'm being quiet now...shhh).
Ron
OK, you can talk now. | | Back to Top | | |
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