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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > I met the devil, and he is me ( Doc/Icon) | Forum Quick Jump
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
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| Posted 8/31/2004 6:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
And why would this be to “belittle his miracle”? I think it is an absolutely amazing thing to heal someone of multiple personality disorder – much, much harder than healing epilepsy or hemophelia.
quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
Jesus told Peter to come to Him on the water. Peter jumped out of the boat and started walking on the water. Was this a "miracle" or simply a demonstration of the power that us humans have? The answer lies, in my opinion, in the fact that when Peter started losing faith he started sinking. Thus, it was not by Jesus personal power that Peter started walking on the water. It was by Peter's personal faith that Peter walked on the water. Yes, it was Jesus' personal power that rescued Peter when Peter's faith faltered.
quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
My view is that even if one is acting out of faith that moves mountains (the "power of God") and one does something bad it still cannot be attributed to God.
In my view our ability to walk is as much "God's power" as any "faith the size of a mustard seed" sort of thing we do. God gives us power - it is up to us how we use it.
Again, Jesus said that if we have the faith the size of mustard seed we can say to this mountain go jump into the sea. Now, when is it God's will some mountain goes and jumps into the sea? Jesus doesn't condition this statement saying that it will only happen as long as it is on balance a good thing and not a bad thing. The meaning to me is that God has given us awesome power (as well as limitations) - for good or for ill.
quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
Moreover, in hypnotic states people can do things that seem miraculous. But they are not really miraculous - they are simply things that our bodies and spirits are actually capable of but our conscious mind limits us from actually doing.
Ok Iconoclast, we need to find a miraculously (amazing) happy  ending to the pig’s little story. In order to keep things simple, I tried to use the story of the pigs as a good example of literal demons. The discussion has turned into, what defines a miracle? Your definition of a miracle, as an act of God, seems to be relatively unorthodox and is at the center of our impasse. Let us take a look at what the dictionary says:
miracle
mir•a•cle [mírr#601;k’l]
n
1. act of God: an event that appears to be contrary to the laws of nature and is regarded as an act of God
2. amazing event: an event or action that is totally amazing, extraordinary, or unexpected
• It’ll be a miracle if we get there on time.
3. marvelous example of skill: something admired as a marvelous creation or example of a particular type of science or skill
• a miracle of modern engineering
[12th century. Via Old French from Latin miraculum “object of wonder,” from mirari “to wonder at,” from mirus “wonderful.”]
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What definition of a miracle are you suggesting to explain the madman’s ability to influence the pig’s behavior? Do you explain it as a miracle from God or a miracle from science using a form of psyche power? It seems that you have fused the two together, creating a muddled combination of the two:
1. The madman used a miracle from God:
This discussion has become increasingly unclear in regards to what constitutes a miracle from God? Iconoclast, you seem to suggest that it is man that determines the fruit of miracles and that the power of the miracle is a free gift from God for our taking and use. You leave me the impression that we just have to tap into miracles and choose how to use them.
2. The madman used a miracle from science, a form of spiritual psyche power:
You state that the human conscience is a powerful resource that can rise to such feats as lifting cars off people. This power that can move mountains (I think this might be a real metaphor) is at our disposal if we choose to cultivate it. This untapped hidden power of our conscience mind is, in an unlimited sense, a miracle from God that can be unleashed for anyone regardless of their spiritual faith, since science provides no theodicy or theology. This power can be used in a good or bad way depending on how our free-will chooses.
Icon, you mention poltergeist as an example. But by definition, that is a noisy spirit, a supposed supernatural spirit that reveals its presence by creating disturbances, for example, by knocking over objects. If this is true, how do you discern the good spirits from the bad? Or are we to understand that it’s not from spirits; it’s just a matter of us discerning our “reptile brain” from our “mammalian brain”? How is the paradigm shift to be understood, that good and evil comes from two different sides of our brain? Is this how we find the devil, by looking at our profile in the mirror? Yes, hmmm, “I met the devil and he is me.”
I agree, the battle of evil is won in our mind. Satan has little power with out us acting as his instrument of evil. I agree, we have a wealth of untapped resources in our conscience. But I disagree that it somehow explains miracles from God. Our mind is not going to turn water to wine, or a rock to water. Our mind is not going to feed thousands of people with food for only a few or raise the dead to life. In my Christian mind, our conscience mind should be focused on raising one person from the dead, our self. In my case, that constitutes a miracle from God.
Thanks for your patience and help,
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/1/2004 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | I find the following passage very compelling with respect to literal demons.
Matthew 12:22-32
Then a demon-possessed man, who was both blind and unable to talk, was brought to Jesus. He healed the man so that he could both speak and see. [23] The crowd was amazed. "Could it be that Jesus is the Son of David, the Messiah?" they wondered out loud.
[24] But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, "No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons."
[25] Jesus knew their thoughts and replied, "Any kingdom at war with itself is doomed. A city or home divided against itself is doomed. [26] And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive. [27] And if I am empowered by the prince of demons, what about your own followers? They cast out demons, too, so they will judge you for what you have said. [28] But if I am casting out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you. [29] Let me illustrate this. You can't enter a strong man's house and rob him without first tying him up. Only then can his house be robbed! [30] Anyone who isn't helping me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me.
[31] "Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven. [32] Anyone who blasphemes against me, the Son of Man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
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