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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > I met the devil, and he is me ( Doc/Icon) | Forum Quick Jump
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/17/2004 12:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | larris
If you judge their teaching as FALSE, then that leads to the biblical conclusion that anyone who teaches it is a FALSE TEACHER. This then leads to the next biblical conclusion that anyone who teaches falsely being a false teacher is destined to eternal judgment and having his part in the lake of fire along with the real non metaphoric devil and Satan.
Iconoclast
Wow, that’s pretty harsh larris. Are you suggesting that if someone teaches something that is incorrect then they are therefore destined for eternal judgement? Is there any chance that you have every been mistaken about something and taught that mistaken notion to another – even if only through yourself as a role model? If you did would this then mean that you are a FALSE TEACHER and headed straight for damnation?
larris
So you see that hence by JUDGING THE TEACHING, you are in essence judging the person since the teaching is an integral part of who that person is, representing as it dose what that individual believes in his innermost being. In other words by telling someone what they are saying is “false”, you are really saying YOU ARE A LIAR. Hence the so called evil accusation THEY ARE ENDEAVORING TO AVOID!
However if what you are saying is the truth, if the person is teaching falsely and therefore A LIAR, it’s not an ACCUSATION, it’s simply the truth.
Iconoclast
Well now, if this logic is correct then this is the most convenient sort of thing I have ever heard. What I hear you saying is that as long as we are 100% right we get to correct everyone else and it is not an accusation at all. So then, if you are 100% correct in everything you believe and say then you get to hammer everyone else (like you just did) and that is really a good thing – no matter how it actually affects the other person.
One thing I struggle with in this logic however is why it is that you believe that judging someone’s teaching is identical with judging the person? Why is someone’s teaching / beliefs identical with who they are? Is this true for you? I can only speak for myself but it is self-evident to me that it is certainly not true for me.
If it really is true for you then I can see why you speak with such vehemence and vitriol about beliefs that are different from yours. Why, to actually entertain the idea of some belief that you do not hold being true must feel life-threatening.
larris
What he is REALLY SAYING is that we should stick with HIS method of INTERPRETATION of the scriptures. He's trying to make Bill or anyone else who has an opposite opinion feel guilty for questioning him or actually having a firm belief in what is right and wrong.
Iconoclast
Help me understand exactly how it is that you are not doing this very thing of which you speak.
larris
THEIR INTERPRETATION is just “exploring” and uncovering new truths. YOUR INTERPRETATION on the other hand is always narrow minded especially if your interpretation questions their interpretation.
Iconoclast
Do you agree that we are arguing over each other’s interpretation? That neither of us have the word of God itself? If so, how would you recommend that we go about determining which interpretation is a better fit? If not, are you saying that you do indeed have the word of God itself? That you have it all sewn up and that any teaching or interpretation that contradicts yours is false teaching and the person promulgating it and evildoer that is going directly to hell?
By the way, how do you understand Jesus’ teaching to “judge not lest ye be judged for the judgment you make is the judgment you shall receive”? Do you want to be judged by the judgment that you make? Do you consider this a good thing because you judge so well and you want to be judged by God as well as you judge others? Or do you really not want to be judged at all but really want mercy?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/17/2004 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Phooey...
The question still comes out, "legal view" vs. "love view" .
peace, don
A false dichotomy is proposed by those who would separate love from righteousness. This, neither Jesus nor his Apostles did:
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
Scripturally speaking, an UNloving righteousness is impossible, (for if unloving, it would then not be actually godly righteousness).
Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Mark 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
29Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.'This is the first commandment. 31And the second, like it, is this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
32So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."
James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14:23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Jesus, the most perfectly loving person there ever was or will be, had this to say about whether or not "law" mattered:
Matt. 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/17/2004 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
Seems I have done quite a bit of that in the past. What text would you like me to deal with?
HERE THEY ARE:
quote:
Originally posted by billzbob
Doing chores around the house, making errands, and cooking BBQ these two passages in scripture popped into my head:
1. The Demons caste out, who entered the herd of pigs.
2. The warning advice about newly caste out demons returning later to the empty place they had come from.
Both of these lack a conscious view of metaphor on the part of the author. (And did the pigs consider the water a metaphor?)
quote:
Matthew 8:28-34
28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
How can metaphors do that?
quote:
Matt 12:43-45
43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."
For demons to be mere metaphors, then that 'truth' would here be unknown by the Unbegotten Son of God.
Also, look at The Apostle Jame's understanding:
quote:
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
I think this, maybe, is the least unabandonable part of Icon's notion.
- two cents
I see Icon as stating two things, but thinking that they are inseparable. He's saying that humans can be what otherwise would be called "demonic", but then also conflates scriptural reference to actual demons to refer only to humans.
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/17/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Here is a previous post I did some time ago that dealt with two of the scriptures you pointed out. Let me know if you want me to do the third as well.
Previous Iconoclast post:
Trosie:
I'd be interested to understand how one might square the following scripture passages with the Satan as a mere metaphor idea:
Mark 5:1-17 The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man
Matt. 12:27-28 "And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then they will be judges. But if I drive them out by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
2Corin. 11:14 "for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."
James 2:19 "You believe that there is a God. Good! Even demons believe that and shudder."
Iconoclast:
“Mere metaphor” suggests that there is no power or underlying reality to something. I am not saying this. I do not in any way deny the experiences people have had related to demons. I totally believe these accounts. I do not however believe the interpretations are literal truth – as though we can even know completely what the literal truth is. (We do know who the Truth is) This does not however mean that these interpretations are not useful and effective. They are clearly very effective. When someone casts out a “demon” and the “demon” possessed person is healed – that is real – as real as it gets – and all that matters. If the model works – use it.
My goal in this dialogue (search for truth) is not to invalidate the usefulness of the current model but simply to highlight it as a model (or "map" in TNT / NLP speak) and seek additional models.
Here is one possible underlying reality that can square with the metaphorical language being used in these passages:
Satan (Hebrew: ha-satan – The Adversary – as in a court) is really referring to that “part” of us that is against God and each other. The part that accuses God and each other of causing us and our loved ones pain.
Some facts:
“Demon” comes from the Greek word “diamon” – which means “unseen agent” – interestingly enough the Greek word does NOT entail good or bad in its meaning – it is neutral in this respect – the Unix operating system uses the word “daemon” for system services that operate in the background.
“Angel” comes from the Greek word “angelos” which simply means messenger.
95% of our “thought” is unconscious. – Cognitive Science
The metaphors for Self are multi-“selved”. We have a “True Self” that is our “essence” (conscious part in control) and we have multiple other “selves” that are parts of us. “I was beside myself.” “That was the rum talking, not me.” This comes from the book “Philosophy in the Flesh” by Lakoff and Anderson.
Jesus said: If you have enough faith you can say to this mountain “jump into the sea” and it will be done for you. (We have a lot of power at our disposal depending on our faith)
Alternate interpretations based on these “meanings”:
Mark 5:1-17 The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man
The man had “legion” demons in him: his unconscious was totally fragmented into multiple “personalities” and they were ANGRY! We all have heard the stories of people who acting out of their “unconscious” passion have been able to lift cars. No one suggests that this comes from the power of a “demon”. Hypnotists have also learned how to actually talk to the multiple parts of a person’s unconscious. And these multiple parts are not necessarily malevolent or even angry. There are documented cases of a part of a person’s unconscious rationally protecting the conscious self from knowledge that would be damaging.
One more point that I find very interesting in this story. The demons asked to go into the pigs. Jesus let them. The pigs, ostensibly under demon control, killed themselves thus giving no home to the demons. Now one might argue that the demons were stupid or that Jesus tricked them and then Jesus caused the pigs to go into the sea. However I would like to offer another explanation. The multiple fragmented parts of the self were the very, very angry parts that also were accusing the “True Self” of being unworthy: “what have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God.” Notice also what Jesus said: “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit.” This language presupposes that the fragmented angry, accusing parts of the man are simply parts, they are NOT the True Self, they are NOT the man. Jesus is OK with the man – but not with the angry, accusing parts – they have to go. The True Self hears this and also hears Jesus commanding these other parts to leave – the man can now let go of the anger he has been affirmed as being OK and in control – but wait the angry parts are also part of the man – they are also part of himself. They have served him and shouldn’t or can’t just be let go of – they must have their final angry expression and therefore justification. That final angry expression is for the man in his intense unconscious passion to send the pigs to their death. Jesus in his mercy is OK with this expression of anger.
Call me crazy (and I am sure you will  ) but when my brother died a few months ago after a few days I got really, really angry. Coincidentally there was a thunderstorm that day. At a certain point when I was at my most intense seething deep anger there was a rash of lightning all around me such as I have never experienced before. And I am talking sub-second thunder and 20-30 thunderbolts in rapid succession. I absolutely felt my energy going into that display – I felt one with it – and it felt really, really good – to just express my anger in such a powerful way – and I thank God for that experience.
Matt. 12:27-28 "And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then they will be judges. But if I drive them out by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
Demons = “unseen” agents. Notice he pre-supposes that they also “drive out demons”.
2Corin. 11:14 "for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."
For The Adversary / Accuser part of ourselves masqerades as a messenger of open dialogue and communication. When really we just want to win because in our distress we somehow believe our survival depends on it. We then unconsciously (sometime consciously) attack the other person. This separates us and is the opposite of Loving one another.
James 2:19 "You believe that there is a God. Good! Even demons believe that and shudder."
Your “True Self” (conscious part of you “in control”) believes that there is a God. Good! Even your unconscious parts believe that and shudder. There is a scripture somewhere in Jeremiah (I think) about how now God's law will be implanted into us (our unconscious will know him - and yes - shudder).
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/17/2004 8:23 PM (GMT -6) | | billzbob
Matt 12:43-45
43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."
Iconoclast
Now, if this scripture doesn't just scream out metaphor, metaphor, metaphor I just don't know what does. Do you honestly think this LITERALLY happens? Is this what is LITERALLY happening when you give up a bad habit through sheer will power and don't replace it with some life-giving behavior pattern like doing something for someone else? Isn't this a STORY about what happens when we seek life by trying to be good by getting rid of the bad things we do rather than seek life by actually laying down our own life for someone else? Is this story meant to be taken LITERALLY? If so, what is its meaning? What exactly are we supposed to do with this bit of knowledge if it is intended to be LITERAL? Are we supposed to make sure we clutter up our houses and keep them dirty?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 8:32 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 8:56 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 9:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Icon & All,
I guess this is all news to me. I've never heard any of this before, and wonder how we can be involved in spiritual warfare if there is no "real" enemy. Is it just "us" then; is it literally "me" that I am warring against in prayer? Does that make sense? Is this really, "I have seen the enemy, and he is us?"
I believe that we often excuse our own choices, actions, behaviour by blaming "the enemy", or someone, or something. But Jesus directly addressed the enemy, and we are told to "flee from him" - and not to give him any opportunity. "Who" or "what" then are we fleeing from - Iconoclast?
'Nite (finally) and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/18/2004 5:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
[quote]If the satan is a metaphor, and not an actual entity; a fallen angel - then who was Jesus addressing in the desert?
Jo-Anne 
Icon merly said he dealt with scripture. He ducked it.
Jo-Anne, you bring up an important one here.
Also, who sent "into" the swine?
Icon's has vaporously missed addressing the narratives of the Gospels.
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ataraxia
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | billzbob,
I'm uncomfortable with the extracurricular attitude of some of your posts. I know you're passionate about this, but the enlarged and bold fonts as well as CAPS (usually used for emphasis) seem to in your usuage suggest you're shouting. Try to cut people some slack, as one member asked. If you're not satisfied with Iconoclast's answers to your questions, then you're free to disagree, but you appear to be shouting him down.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/18/2004 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ataraxia
billzbob,
I'm uncomfortable with the extracurricular attitude of some of your posts. I know you're passionate about this, but the enlarged and bold fonts as well as CAPS (usually used for emphasis) seem to in your usuage suggest you're shouting. Try to cut people some slack, as one member asked. If you're not satisfied with Iconoclast's answers to your questions, then you're free to disagree, but you appear to be shouting him down.
ataraxia
Thanks for sharing your feeling and question, ataraxia.
No, that was not shouting. Icon had not answered the Scripture verses that I had both posted and made comment about. That had been done following his challenge to find scripture to support the traditional view that demons exist.
I made the remark "Deal with the texts." to be sign-sized so as to catch both Icon's attention and the attention of those who have also been offering scripture verses (Which Icon has ignored).
Why did I do this. Well, I'm not the only one pointing out that this new view of his selectively ignores Scriptures. I made the "Deal with the texts." sign for the benefit of other people's interests too.
I wonder whether Icon will actually deal with what I and Jo-Anne, and others have posted; or will he just gloss over or ignore?
Icon ignored what I'd actually posted, partially supporting him. I'd differentiated the human capability to make something "demon-IC" (which I would grant) from the matter of the actuall existance of angels who are in rebellion against God. But rather than recognize what I was saying, Icon merely glossed over and steriotyped my post into one single adversary. He supposedly answered something that wasn't even a challenge.
How is discussion possible when facts and details are ignored, and possitions steriotyped, and contorted into strawmen?
I hope that Icon will do better.
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/18/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Matthew 8:28-34
28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" 30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." 32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
.
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 8/18/2004 2:20 PM (GMT -6) | | .
quote:
larris wrote:
Parents will be judged for their deeds and there is a "special" place in hell reserved for the liberal media, I convinced of that.
.
quote:
larris wrote (to Iconoclast):
What he is REALLY SAYING is that we should stick with HIS method of INTERPRETATION of the scriptures. He's trying to make Bill or anyone else who has an opposite opinion feel guilty for questioning him or actually having a firm belief in what is right and wrong.
YES these hypocrites, accuse while stating you should not accuse. At the same time they constantly harp on “interpretations” of scriptures that someone else is giving. What they want is for you to just SHUT UP and let them sling their hash all over the place without you ever questioning THEIR INTERPRETATION.
THEIR INTERPRETATION is just “exploring” and uncovering new truths. YOUR INTERPRETATION on the other hand is always narrow minded especially if your interpretation questions their interpretation.
The truth is there are more children of the harlot than of the married wife.
That is why these people are always flattering and defeding one another. They attack with venum those who question THEIR INTERPRETATIONS, teaching that anyone who questions their false teachings is in league with Satan. I’ve seen it big time already among many on this board. When you “accuse” any of them of teaching something that is not in accordance with what you think the bible teaches, then you will be SATAN. When anyone confronts the teachings of their idols they turn on that person like sharks in a feeding frenzy. (there how’s that for a metaphore.)
.
quote:
larris wrote:
If you judge their teaching as FALSE, then that leads to the biblical conclusion that anyone who teaches it is a FALSE TEACHER. This then leads to the next biblical conclusion that anyone who teaches falsely being a false teacher is destined to eternal judgment and having his part in the lake of fire along with the real non metaphoric devil and Satan.
.
quote:
larris wrote:
Of course if you have come to this board, you are in good company because everyone here pretty much loves and follows the same deceitful types of men, and their ears are just itching to hear what you have to say. You can all pat each other on the back and flatter each other while heaping up judgment, that will in fact literally come upon your heads. There are a “few” here....”very few” who actually have some sort of reverence for God and His Word and just might come out of their own false notions.
As for you, I cannot judge as to weather you will wind up in heaven or hell since I don’t know your future. However I can say that you and those like you, IF you do not repent from the manner in which you read and handle and speak concerning the Written Word of God, will suffer eternal judgment.
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larris wrote:
quote:
I’m HAMMERING you so to speak.........
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Meet "Jack Hammer"!
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