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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > I met the devil, and he is me ( Doc/Icon) | Forum Quick Jump
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/28/2004 7:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | sparknheart
I contend when a so-called man of god does bad it cannot be contributed to God. At that point, it might be his “demon brain”. By the way, you explained what a demon brain was not, I’m still waiting for your definition of what it is.
Iconoclast
I, of course, struggle with you characterization of it being our "demon brain" so I will refer to it as our "reptilian brain".
In my view this is the part of us that is our instinct. Even science has this notion of our mammalian brain and our reptilian brain. That our reptilian brain is the most basic creaturely part of us that is only concerned with our own physical survival - it is the fight or flight response.
Notice that Jesus says that we must die to live. I think this means that we must overcome our individual reptilian brain that is only concerned with our own individual physical survival and lay down our life for another. Love means overcoming this part of ourselves that only cares about ourself (specifically ONLY about our physical survival). And how do we overcome this? We actually have to care MORE about someone else. And THIS is the fundamental choice we all have to make.
In my view the author of the Adam and Eve story understood the nature of our "reptilian brain" and this is why they refer to it as the "serpent". The serpent cares nothing for another - only for its own survival.
So the question is: are we animals like reptiles who don't even care about their own young - or are we Imago Dei - like God - who lays down His own life for the very people who torture and murder Him?
Thus, the Adam and Eve story is not something that happened long ago, it is what is happening right now. Our own "serpent" talks to us all the time telling us that we should protect our own life over and against our brother. But just like then it is lying to us even now - for our life can only be found by laying it down for our brother.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/28/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
I, of course, struggle with you characterization of it being our "demon brain" so I will refer to it as our "reptilian brain".
Iconoclast
Sorry Icon, with all this demon talk going on, I must have demons on my mind. I was referring to what you coined as “serpent brain”, not “demon brain”. 
I’ll have to get back to you about the rest of your post. My initial thought, it’s one of the best explanations I’ve heard to date for a girl to throw paradise away. I like it. It could prove to be very helpful. Thanks, Mark
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/28/2004 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Semeia
And the idea that Jesus wouldn't have responsibility for what the "demons" did to the pigs also escapes logic for me. To use an analogy: let's say the demon possessed man is like a prison guard being held hostage by the violent prisoners he is guarding. If one rescues the hostage by opening the doors of the prison and releasing all the criminals, wouldn't one bear some responsibility for any future crimes they did? If these demons were evil, why release them from the man, when they could go inhabit ten more people?
If the demons are literal beings, and Jesus heals the man by sending them out of him, how is he not responsible for what the demons do? How would that not be like opening the doors of the prison for the criminally insane?
Hi Semeia, a quick comment.
IMHO, I think your analogy breaks down when you use the word “prison”. I think Jesus would think of demons dwelling inside of a man’s body to be closer to a temple then a “prison”. So, to let all of the “violent prisoners” out of the good house (temple) would be quite a contrast to unlocking the doors to the big house(prison).
Shalom,
Mark 
P.S.
I love  this quote of yours:
quote:
Originally posted by Semeia
Simply stated: love is not ever complicit with evil of any size, and God is love. Anything in the Old Testament that seems to say otherwise has to be looked at through the lens of the direct revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
Thanks,
Semeia
Carlie was murdered--Where was God?
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Psalm 103:20
Praise the LORD , you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 5:16 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Psalm 148:2
Praise him, all his angels,
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 5:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Judges 13
The Birth of Samson
1 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD , so the LORD delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years.
2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was sterile and remained childless. 3 The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, "You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean, 5 because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite, set apart to God from birth, and he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines."
6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, "A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, 'You will conceive and give birth to a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from birth until the day of his death.' "
8 Then Manoah prayed to the LORD : "O LORD , I beg you, let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born."
9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, "He's here! The man who appeared to me the other day!"
11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, "Are you the one who talked to my wife?"
"I am," he said.
12 So Manoah asked him, "When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule for the boy's life and work?"
13 The angel of the LORD answered, "Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her."
15 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD , "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you."
16 The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD ." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD .)
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD , "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?"
18 He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding. " 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD . And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"
23 But his wife answered, "If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this."
24 The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and the LORD blessed him, 25 and the Spirit of the LORD began to stir him while he was in Mahaneh Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
PoW
Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
22 "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"
Iconoclast
Good find PoW. Thanks for digging this up.
There you have it folks. These people see an angel and it is clear to them that they have "seen God".
An angel is a manifestation - an aspect - of God.
thanks,
Iconoclast
Nope.
Just that it was all the same for them -- that the same fate was feared. The emissary "is the same as" the emperor.
But notice what the passage DOES say: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Hardly sounds like "God."
Many other passages in the Psalms can be read "either/or" as the representation of God by angels is strong, and can fit the matter portrayed: emissary equals emperor. (Search Psalms for "angel" to see.) God-represented and God's will performed are their message. (Icon's thesis fits on the surface.) But the two Psalms I posed do NOT lend themselves, and ANGELS are praising God. One being worshiping and glorifying another.
Samson's parents did not see "God" they "saw God" when they saw his angel who was his emissary. (And that emmisary "blazed up from the altar toward heaven.")
This does not mean that there should be a disconnect between God's angels and God as to mission. But it does not mean that angels are eternal, unoriginate, etc.
No cigar, Icon. 
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | There ARE passages in the Old Testement where the angel IS God -- like the burning bush--The Word. But not every instance is.
And the concept of the Spirit developes slowly across the writing of scripture. By Ezekiel (very late) the Spirit begins to be personified. (The cultures of Zoroasterianism and Qumeran supply some of the vocabulary for St. John's Gospel.)
The creature-ness of angelic beings is salient:
"Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." (Isaiah 6:2) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 6:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
The creature-ness of angelic beings is salient:
"Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." (Isaiah 6:2)
The covering of feet and eyes by the angelic beings portrays to us (and is real to them) of the magnatude of difference between created and uncreated beings. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
PoW
The creature-ness of angelic beings is salient:
"Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." (Isaiah 6:2)
Iconoclast
Are you suggesting that this is a literal description of an angel?
I said what I said, already: "The covering of feet and eyes by the angelic beings portrays to us (and is real to them) of the magnatude of difference between created and uncreated beings."
Moses was told to remove his shoes, for he was on holy ground.
The angels are on "holy ground" and act accordingly. (Which of course is necessary for any creature!)
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/28/2004 6:34 PM (GMT -6) | |
Ja just gotta know when to not push an analogy beyond its breaking point, Icon!
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/29/2004 1:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
It is not evident to me why causing the death of some who were mocking God's prophet would be any more evil than tossing them headlong into the lake of fire would be evil. God reserves the right to mete out justice whenever he sees fit, and sometimes he does things to make an example of how one should NOT act.
I aggre, John.
Life Application Notes:
2:23-24 This mob of youths was from Bethel, the religious center of idolatry in the northern kingdom, and they were probably warning Elisha not to speak against their immorality as Elijah had done. They were not merely teasing Elisha about his baldness, but showing severe disrespect for Elisha’s message and God’s power. They may also have jeered because of their disbelief in the chariot of fire that had taken Elijah. When Elisha cursed them, he did not call out the bears himself. God sent them as a judgment for their callous unbelief.
2:23-24 These young men jeered at God’s messenger and paid for it with their lives. Making fun of religious leaders has been a popular sport through the ages. To take a stand for God is to be different from the world and vulnerable to verbal abuse. When we are cynical and sarcastic toward religious leaders, we are in danger of mocking not just the person, but also the spiritual message. While we are not to condone the sin that some leaders commit, we need to pray for them, not laugh at them. True leaders, those who follow God, need to be heard with respect and encouraged in their ministry.
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 8/29/2004 1:25 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE
Also, it seems to me that Icon assumes that God is too nice to strike people dead.
Iconoclast
My understanding is that God is love and that the full revelation of God is Jesus Christ. Did Jesus go around striking people dead? If this is what God is all about why didn't Jesus, the full revelation of God, show us this aspect of Himself? It seems to me He did quite the opposite.
Now, I can certainly understand how when people are in the "fullness of their iniquity" that the most loving thing to do is to call a halt to the madness. But I just don't believe God goes around striking people dead because they mocked His prophet. I mean, why didn't God strike Hitler dead? Seems to me like Hitler did a lot worse than mock one of God's prophets. Why not believe that Elisha acted rashly and did an all-too-human sort of thing? Is it because Elisha didn't do this with his bare hands? Is that why we want to believe it was really God who did it? Do we not believe Jesus when He says that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can tell mountains to go jump into the sea?
Is it because Elisha was a "man of God"? But wasn't David a "man after God's own heart"? Didn't David kill Uriah? Didn't David get the power to kill Uriah from God? I believe God installed David as the King of Israel. Is it because we don't see Elisha being reprimanded by God? Does the bible show God reprimanding everyone who did something bad?
For myself, when I see a conflict between what Jesus was like and what folks attribute to God I assume that we are misinterpreting the text. In fact, what I see is that much of these angry / vengeful attributions of God are "legal view" interpretations.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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| Posted 8/29/2004 8:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
JEE
Also, it seems to me that Icon assumes that God is too nice to strike people dead.
Iconoclast
My understanding is that God is love and that the full revelation of God is Jesus Christ. Did Jesus go around striking people dead? If this is what God is all about why didn't Jesus, the full revelation of God, show us this aspect of Himself? It seems to me He did quite the opposite.
Jesus' purpose in coming to the world was "not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." He was then "the Lamb of God," not yet the full revelation of the LION of the tribe of Judah that we find in the Book of Revelation. Don't the depictions of Christ in Revelation present a Jesus who kills wicked people?
quote:
Now, I can certainly understand how when people are in the "fullness of their iniquity" that the most loving thing to do is to call a halt to the madness. But I just don't believe God goes around striking people dead because they mocked His prophet. I mean, why didn't God strike Hitler dead? Seems to me like Hitler did a lot worse than mock one of God's prophets.
Apparently good had sufficient reason not to end Hitler's life. I honestly don't know.
quote:
Why not believe that Elisha acted rashly and did an all-too-human sort of thing?
Because Elisha didn't command the bears, he simply cursed those who were mocking the authority God had just anointed him with.
quote:
Is it because Elisha didn't do this with his bare hands? Is that why we want to believe it was really God who did it? Do we not believe Jesus when He says that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can tell mountains to go jump into the sea?
Interesting point. As I am unaware of ANY instance in Scripture or in history where anyone has ever moved a mountain into the sea by faith (not even Christ did this particular miracle), I can only conclude that he was using hyperbole in this instance to boldly underscore the great potentiality of faith.
quote:
Is it because Elisha was a "man of God"?
The narrative of Elijah's and Elisha's ministries in Kings is pretty straightforward in presenting them as God's untouchable prophets. In 2 Kings 1, Elisha calls down fire from heaven to destroy the enemies of God. In 1 Kings, Elijah similarly is able to call down fire from heaven and also is apparently supernaturally enabled to slay all the prophets of Baal. The inspired narrator certainly didn't seem to think that these men were anything less than duly authorized by God to in some cases call down temporal divine judgment on the enemies of God. (I even know of this happening a time or two in recent history with regard to witch doctors and others who were steadfastly opposed to a real man of God).
quote:
But wasn't David a "man after God's own heart"? Didn't David kill Uriah? Didn't David get the power to kill Uriah from God?
No, David got the power to kill Uriah by ABUSING his authority as king. God certainly doesn't empower people to sin, in the sense of endorsing sin.
quote:
I believe God installed David as the King of Israel. Is it because we don't see Elisha being reprimanded by God? Does the bible show God reprimanding everyone who did something bad?
The Elisha narrative nowhere states or even implies that he was anything BUT a prophet approved by God.
quote:
For myself, when I see a conflict between what Jesus was like and what folks attribute to God I assume that we are misinterpreting the text. In fact, what I see is that much of these angry / vengeful attributions of God are "legal view" interpretations.
It's certainly a good thing to see you come clean with your bias. 
Matt 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
(Sure sounds to me like Jesus will certainly one day be Judge, though for the time being he is the Savior).
Scripture reveals that God's wrath has not abated, but continues even in this present age:
Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
(Which is one very good reason not to believe in the penal substitution view of the atonement, by the way).
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Heb 10:26 ¶ For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on {the testimony of} two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
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Sahid
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| Posted 8/29/2004 11:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Did Jesus go around striking people dead?
Matt. 24: 51; 25: 30, 46. Which is worse: being struck dead or being assigned to everlasting torment? Jesus plans on separating the sheep from the goats. But I still agree that this must be reconciled with love being the defining personal characteristic of God (as opposed to essential characteristics (I think I screwing up the jargon, but I think/hope you know what I mean.)). quote:
Good question.
Thanks, but only the Father in heaven is good. quote:
The way I conceptualize this is that we are not to worship a particular aspect of God - a manifestation of God - but rather God Himself in His fullness - his full glory. An angel is a messenger or a message of God (angel literally means messenger).
This is similar to when the man called Jesus "good" and Jesus said that we should only call the Father in heaven "good".
I thought that when Jesus said that, he was being ironic. (Little did they know that he and the Father actually were one.) Wasn't Jesus a manifestation of God? The perfect image of the invisible God and all that jazz. Did not Jesus possess the fullness of God? I firmly believe that Jesus is just as good as the Father. Jesus never told the man not to call him good like certain angels did.
If an angel is part of God, is it a person? Well, angels a appear to have consciousness (just as other humans we meet appear to have consciousness). So if we question the consciousness of an angel, I would say we need to question just as thoroughly the consciousness of every human we talk with. What else constitutes personhood? Individuality from other persons? That's exactly what I'm trying to see if angels have. I don't know. I'm happy with consciousness as the only criterum for personhood. Of course, then we have to define consciousness. But for now, I'd rather not, and it doesn't matter anyway. The best we can hope to determine about another is their apparent personhood. I'd say, that from my perspective, an angels as described in the Bible are apparently just as personal as my best friend.
So, how many angles sang at Jesus' birth? We've exceded "trinity". I know that God is mysterious, but I thought three persons to God was pretty well established.
Surely it's at least possible that God might create heavenly beings roughly corresponding to us earthly beings. I don't take the heavens in "the heavens and the earth" to mean the sky. Maybe I'm making too many assumptions. Iconoclast, do you believe in a literal heaven or spiritual realm in which angels and demons might exist?
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Sahid
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| Posted 8/30/2004 12:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I think the epistemic distance stuff begs the question. Here's how I see it. Show me what's wrong.
If we believe that freedom requires distance, then we say that all free creatures are distant. But, why believe that freedom requires distance. Because, free creatures require distance.
Likewise, if we believe that freedom doesn't require distance, then we say that some free creatures may not be distant. But, why doesn't freedom require distance. Because, some free creatures may not be distant.
I must be missing something. Is there a noncircular reason why freedom requires distance? Isn't there more to our decision making than knowledge? What about desire, emotion, creativity? I admit, I'm no great philosopher, but is epistemology really as broad as the entire person? I've seen people do things that they knew full well were destructive, but they've done them anyway just so that they could experience them. Might not this be an example of freedom without epistemic distance. Be patient with this remedial student of philosophy.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/30/2004 4:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
If an angel is part of God, is it a person?
Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.
Three Old Testament people “entertained angels without knowing it”: (1) Abraham (Genesis 18:1), (2) Gideon (Judges 6:11), and (3) Manoah (Judges 13:2).
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