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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 8/12/2004 7:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | From www.sharktacos.comquote:
We tend to want to blame someone for our oppression, to project the problem onto some outside group rather than directly addressing the dominating power of abuse and oppression at work in our own lives: Blame it on the church, blame it on our parents, blame it on the Jews, blame it on the liberal media.- just don’t look inside. But the real "enemy", the New Testament tells us, is not any particular human, or group, or system, but the power of evil itself at work in all of our lives and our systems. Our real struggle is with our own images of false authority and power - with the spiritual and psychological power of lies to dominate and determine our identity and our worth. Thus Paul writes,
"Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph 6:12)
This quote reminded me of Iconoclasts description of Satan.
As I explore the bible as story, instead of just a mine for "principles" , it's amazing how the story links to the way we "do" life.
I'm beginning to think that if God had wanted us to know he is green, he would have just said so. You know, a Powerpoint, bulleted list of facts. Where's the FAQ about God?
"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 8/13/2004 2:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Don,
Well since you asked....
I think upon first examination that sounds all fine and nobel but dose not actually line up with life in that it's too general and one sided.
Example concerning this statement:
"We tend to want to blame someone for our oppression, to project the problem onto some outside group rather than directly addressing the dominating power of abuse and oppression at work in our own lives:
Yes, yes it's true that we each have to deal with and address the dominating power of abuse and oppression at work in our own lives or "sin" etc. However some have already dealt with it and have it under control and are doers of the Word. Others never actually have much of a probelm with such (believe it or not) and thus there is nothing they have to deal with that is all that bad.
But let me say that there are MANY in the world who will never deal with or address the dominating power of abuse and opression at work in their own lives and thus ARE THE ACTUAL OPPRESSORS OF OTHERS. This FACT of course gives many a full fledged rightful and true reason to lay the BLAME where the BLAME is due.
The next statement was: ": Blame it on the church, blame it on our parents, blame it on the Jews, blame it on the liberal media.- just don’t look inside."
Yes, but also why not do both? Sure take that check up from the neck up. But then also learn to discern each of these groups as the Word tells us to do in learning how to separate truth from error and good from evil. Sorry but the Word states "Judgement shall begin at the house of God". The Church is going to be judged for the lies she's perpitrated on God's children. Parents will be judged for their deeds and there is a "special" place in hell reserved for the liberal media, I convinced of that. As for the Jews, God has a special plan for them, they are purposely blinded just so a few gentiles can be let into the common wealth of Israel. Someday their eyes will be opened.
However it is this next statment that is wholly untrue, which the writer states: "the New Testament tells us, is not any particular human, or group, or system, but the power of evil itself at work in all of our lives and our systems."
I always love it how these guys say "the New Testament tells us..." and then make a completely false statement. Where did this guy ever get the idea that the power of evil is just some invisible force latently at work within us? He took that verse of scripture from Eph. 6 and imasculated it. For evil IS A GROUP, IS HUMAN AND IS ALSO A SYSTEM.
"Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph 6:12)
Spiritual forces of evil are the DEVIL and his angels who are a GROUP, who word in HUMANS to do their evil bidding, by using a SYSTEM of DECEPTION they thought up.
This writer actually took the verse and made it seem to say exactly the opposite of what it really says. He's directing it towards you the puny human of "flesh and blood" saying it's just the evil "principle" within you. But in reality Paul is saying just the opposite it's NOT YOU, but there is a literal army of evil spirit beings out to GET YOU, and that is what you are wrestling against.
The Bible as a "story" tells the truth of how to recognize the children of God and the children of the devil. Not just two "principles" of good or evil at work in or latent within the heart of man but two literal beings. And each man chooses which one he's going to follow, the proof of the pudding is in the thoughts, words and deeds. Those things show both God and us, where we are at and where we need to be.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/13/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | might-be-don
If you have the strength for this, can you review the basic premise from which you are working.
Iconoclast
Sure. I am a bit time-limited today but I can throw out some basic thoughts to get things started.
The first thought is about the nature of our abstract reasoning. Almost all of our abstract reasoning is done using metaphors. A metaphor is simply taking something that is well understood in a particular domain (the source domain) and applying it to something less well understood in another domain (the target domain).
An example of this is love. Love is a domain that is rather abstract so we take more concrete domains and apply the logic of those domains to love. For example – “Love is a Journey”. We use this metaphor logic when we say that “our relationship is at a dead-end.” People who drive have an experiential base for what it means to hit a dead-end. It means you have no choice but to back up and try a different path.
Another example is inflation. What is inflation? What is its logic? We understand this and talk about it using the metaphor “Inflation is an Entity”. We talk as though it is a person. And in many ways it is like a person because it is really an aggregate phenomenon of millions upon millions of free-will decisions.
Now, what is interesting about the “XXX is an Entity” metaphor (or any metaphor for that matter) is that unless we have some other concrete evidence we cannot tell from the speech alone whether someone is speaking metaphorically or literally. What this means is that even though someone is talking about some phenomenon AS THOUGH it is a literal person this does not constitute evidence for that phenomenon actually BEING a literal person (or agent). Therefore, everything said in the bible that suggests that satan is a literal entity is NOT evidence for satan actually being a literal entity as long as it can be construed as metaphorical speech. The only way we can know from the biblical speech whether satan is a literal entity or not is if there is some direct reference that can not be construed in any other way.
From this thought we can scour the bible for direct references – I haven’t found any. But this isn’t necessarily evidence that satan IS a metaphor it is just not evidence that satan is a literal entity.
So the real task is to take this notion of satan as a metaphor and to then scour the bible with this new view to see if it illuminates anything new for us. Because, if satan is a metaphor, still gives us all the same logic as satan is a literal entity, then we have everything we already had (we have lost nothing) and we may actually illuminate whole new areas of understanding. The analogy here is Newtonian physics and Relativity theory. Satan as a metaphor is like Relativity theory. It does not invalidate anything in Newtonian physics (satan as a literal entity) but it illuminates vast new areas of understanding. So, if satan as a metaphor can do this then we would have strong evidence for its veracity.
The next thought then is, if satan is a metaphor what is it a metaphor FOR? What is the underlying reality – the underlying target domain that this source domain (free-will agent) helps us to understand?
I think the key to this question is to look at the Hebrew word for “Satan”. The first thing we find is that “Satan” does not have a name. “Satan” is not a name – it is a word – it is “ha satan” which literally means “the adversary, or the accuser”. So whenever we see the word “satan” in the bible it really means “the accuser”.
So, who is really “the accuser”? Why, it is us. We are the ones who accuse God, who accuse each other and who accuse ourselves. This is what it means to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We become judgers of God, each other and ourselves – we accuse and out of our accusation comes evil. For, to accuse, presupposes separation from the other and it is this separation that is anti-thetical to love and therefore death.
If we take this notion then and apply it the entire biblical story it suddenly illuminates whole new areas that didn’t make a lot of sense before. For instance, why is it that in the “spiritual war” we are supposed to love our enemies rather than destroy them? Why? Because they are us. God loves us. His war against us is like the drug war against our kids. We are not trying to kill our kids. We are trying to influence them to not take drugs. Thus it is a war of influence and the greatest influence is love.
This view also illuminates the preamble to Job. How is it that God gives in to Satan’s desire to torture Job? Well if we understand Satan here not as Satan but as ha-satan then suddenly we can look at this story NOT as a literal dialogue between God (an entity) and Satan (an entity) but as a story meant to convey what is going on here. It leads us to much deeper meaning – meaning that we suddenly realize is being reverberated through the entire bible. I won’t go into it but will simply say that suddenly we realize that the Job story is really the same story as the Adam and Eve story (Job is actually the oldest book written in the bible).
And when we look at the Adam and Eve story with this view we also get new illumination. We suddenly realize why it is that the “serpent” is never identified as “Satan”. In fact, we suddenly realize why the story goes to such great lengths to show that the fall happened entirely within God’s creation – the creation that He just called Very Good (literally “a unified order”). There wasn’t some outside entity that came in and wrecked it all – some evil entity that had already fallen - it all happened from within. It IS the original story of the fall.
This view also explains why Jesus came and died for us but apparently not the angels who fell. You see, if there really are these other literal entities that God created with free-will who then fell are we like the second try? Is this Jesus’ second time around? Did He become an angel and then die for the fallen angels?
And let’s look at the word “angel”. This is the word “angelos” which simply means messenger. And notice the “angel of the Lord” in the bible is clearly identified with God Himself. We can easily understand “angel” to simply be an aspect of God – when an angel shows up it is an aspect of God Himself showing up – a messenger if you will – like His left pinky.
I could go on and on…
Here are some other posts of mine on this subject:
Previous Iconoclast post:
So, rather than simply suggest why I think that this verse does not contradict a metaphorical usage of the term ha-satan maybe you can help me understand what this verse means with an interpretation of Satan as a literal pure evil being.
Here is the full context:
Luke 22:31-34
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." And he said to him, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." He said, "I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me."
Satan is demanding to do try and make Peter fall – that his faith may fail. God is giving in to Satan’s demand – in fact – it seems clear that God has NO CHOICE but give in to Satan’s demand. (Why is this?)
Jesus says that He has prayed that Peter’s faith will not fail him NOT that God stops Satan from doing this in the first place. (Why is this?)
Jesus already knows that Peter will, in fact, deny Him three times. Is THIS Peter’s faith failing Him? It cannot be since Jesus knows that Peter WILL deny Him and yet Jesus then presupposes that Peter WILL turn again – at some point.
How does this not mean that what Satan is demanding to do to Peter is to CAUSE Him to deny Jesus three times? That causing Peter to deny Jesus three times IS the test of Peter’s faith?
But wait. If Satan (a literal pure evil being) is allowed to CAUSE Peter to deny Christ then How is it that Peter is the one who denied Christ? And then, why is it that Peter would be faith challenged if it wasn’t him who denied Christ but if the devil MADE Him do it? Especially as Jesus just communicated this very fact to Peter.
It seems to me that if it was truly the case that Satan is a literal evil being that can MAKE Peter deny Christ then Jesus just decoded this reality for Peter such that Peter wouldn’t really be faith challenged at all, but simply realize that this denial of his was forced upon him by the devil.
My problem is that this interpretation takes away any sense of Peter’s personal responsibility for denying Christ three times. In fact, the very passage ALSO presupposes that Peter IS personally responsible for choosing to have faith in Jesus.
My confusion is that the Satan is a literal evil being interpretation seems to cause this passage to BOTH suggest that Peter is NOT responsible for His denial of Christ while at the same time suggesting that Peter IS responsible for NOT denying Christ AFTER He denies Him three times. It presupposes that Peter DOES NOT have a choice AND that he DOES have a choice.
And yet, Peter himself does not seem to understand it this way when it actually happens. Peter seems to realize that he IS personally responsible for denying Christ. Perhaps this is because earlier Jesus said the following to Peter:
Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Maybe Peter really knew exactly WHO Jesus meant when He said to him that ha-satan wanted to sift him like wheat?
Tim
Satan is a fallen angelic being, messenger, correct?
Iconoclast
Yes, exactly.
Except, I would argue that this is metaphorical speech.
There are really two coherent but unfortunately entangled metaphors operating here.
1. “ha satan” (literally: the accuser / adversary) is an entity.
2. “lucifer” (literally: the light bearer) is an entity.
They are entangled because we literally believe that Lucifer IS Satan.
Biblically the connection between “lucifer” and “ha satan” is tenuous at best. I would argue that the connection REALLY comes about because the metaphors for them are coherent.
I have been arguing that Satan (accusation / adversarial judgement) comes about because of epistemic distance.
Lucifer an angel (“angelos” - literally: message bearer) is God’s light bearer. This is metaphorical speech in my opinion for God’s transparent communication (and therefore communion) with us. Lucifer fell which means that this communication stopped being transparent – the message bearer who communicated God’s information stopped communicating that information. This is what I call epistemic distance.
Now, let’s see how these metaphors are entangled:
Lucifer falling = reduced messaging from God = epistemic distance.
Satan = accuser / adversary = destroyer.
Accuser / adversary (Satan) can only come about because of epistemic distance (Lucifer falling).
Thus, we conclude that Satan (the accuser) IS a fallen Lucifer (light bearer / angel of light).
Or,
A fallen Lucifer (epistemic distance) leads to Satan (entropy (destroyer), accuser, adversary, god of this age).
Fundamentally what I am trying to argue in this thread is that to confuse these two metaphors with literal reality leads us to a false conclusion.
To believe that Lucifer and Satan are literal entities that are one and the same actual literal beings leads to the false conclusion that “natural evil” is EVIL Which is to say that Entropy = Evil.
The metaphors are coherent because epistemic distance leads to the ABILITY (or rather - inevitability) to accuse / be an adversary. Thus we connect Lucifer to Satan.
However this connection of Lucifer = Satan LITERALLY leads us to the conclusion that epistemic distance (which we experience as entropy) IS evil.
Let’s look at our very language to see how we have falsely entangled this in our conceptual framework:
The word “evil” in Hebrew is “ra”. Words in Hebrew have a denotative meaning a connotative meaning and a symbolic meaning. In Greek the word for “evil” is “kakos”. So what are these meanings?
Hebrew: Ra =
1. Denotative: Loud/noisy
2. Connotative: Pain
3. Symbolic: Evil
Greek: Kakos = Evil - This is the root of the word cacophony.
Notice the meanings of “loud/noisy” and “cacophony”. I would suggest that these come from our experience of entropy which is simply order to disorder or information loss. “Noise in the system" is a measure of information loss.
Then look at how we have entangled information loss (noise, cacophony) with “pain”. Information loss leads to pain which we then entangle with our symbolic understanding of EVIL.
We experience entropy as pain and then think of it as EVIL which, we falsely conclude, must be someone being against us (we accuse and judge). But WHO is against us? WE accuse and judge God, and each other for causing us pain (thus WE are Satan). Also, notice that “pain” is the same thing as NOT having the very best – someone withholding something from us that they should (if they are not against us) give us. This is the fundamental meaning of what we see happening in the Garden of Eden. Eve (through her subconscious agent the serpent) questions and then concludes that God is withholding the knowledge of good and evil BECAUSE He doesn’t want them to be wise like He is. BECAUSE He is withholding some gift that a loving God would, of course, give to her. This is Satan or EVIL itself – accusing God in a lack of information environment of being against her. It IS evil itself BECAUSE it immediately leads to (and really IS) to separate and thus disunite with God. It is to CHOOSE against God because we falsely conclude that God is against us.
The REALITY is that entropy is NOT evil but is a necessary aspect of the gift that God has given us – Life – the ability to Love. To see it as EVIL is to judge the giver, reject the giver and thus reject the gift. It is spiritual or eternal DEATH.
What is truly EVIL is to accuse and become an adversary of God and others. This is why we correctly understand that Satan is PURE evil – because Satan IS accusation / adversarial judgement which is the same as disunity or separation from God.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Icon's thesis (That there is no "devil") falls apart at the existance of even one demon. And the scriptures present them as real as it does God.
As does at least one of Boyd's books. | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 8:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
...are you suggesting that we should just stick with your interpretation of the scriptures?
Presenting me, as a strawman, does little to demonstrate your position from scripture. | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by billzbob
Icon's thesis (That there is no "devil") falls apart at the existance of even one demon. And the scriptures present them as real as it does God.
As does at least one of Boyd's books.
It equally falls apart at the very existance of ANGELS!
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Angels-and-Evil-Spirits.html | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
...to really comprehend what I am suggesting I would recommend you read "Metaphors We Live By". Only when one fully comprehends the nature of abstract reasoning through metaphors can one fully appreciate my suggestion.
Iconoclast, I have no lack of understanding for that thesis. But you have over applied it. Metaphor is only one of many aspects that a are present, sometimes at the same time, in scripture. Covering everything in scripture by that one thesis becomes a self-predictive prophecy that that is all you will see.
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 9:12 AM (GMT -6) | | - Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. (1 Pet 5:8)
- Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places (Eph 6:11-12).
John Romanadies:
quote:
Whether or not belief in the present, real and active power of Satan appeals to the Biblical theologian, he cannot ignore the importance that St. Paul attributes to the power of the devil. To do so is to completely misunderstand the problem of original sin and its transmission and so misinterpret the mind of the New Testament writers and the faith of the whole ancient Church. In regard to the power of Satan to introduce sin into the life of every man, St. Augustine in combating Pelagianism obviously misread St. Paul. by relegating the power of Satan, death, and corruption to the background and pushing to the foreground of controversy the problem of personal guilt in the transmission of original sin, St. Augustine introduced a false moralistic philosophical approach which is foreign to the thinking of St. Paul and which was not accepted by the patristic tradition of the East.
- Mk 1:12-13 At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him
- Jn 12:31 (also 14:30 and 16:11) Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
- II Tim. 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
- II Cor. 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
- 2 Corinthians 2:11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
- 2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
- II Tim. 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
- I Cor. 7:5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
- Eph. 4:27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
- I Thes. 3:5 For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent Timothy to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.
- I Tim. 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
- Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
- Col. 2:15 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
- II Cor. 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/13/2004 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Larris, interesting feedback that you gave to might-be-don.
Icon and others, do you believe that angels are a metaphor too? Just curious what your take on angels would be.
This is off the point, Billzbob, but this scripture you posted
2Cor. 11:14 "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" reminds me of how the church has done and still does horrid things in the name of Christianity. Satan uses the church itself, something many associate with God, and destroys peoples hearts. Just as with Semeia's two sisters feeling on the outside and having no interest in God because of the church. | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 10:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
billzbob, everything you just posted just screams out metaphor, metaphor, metaphor. It is metaphorical language that we often confuse for literal reality. It is no different than when people say that time is like a river they then confuse time with being like a literal river - as though the past really exists downstream and the future really exists upstream.
ha-satan is a metaphor for the evil power of our accusation and judgement of each other.
thanks,
Iconoclast
YOU HAVE PRESUPPOSTIONS. (OF COURSE YOU SEE WHAT YOU PRESUME.) THAT DOES NOT PROVE YOUR POINT.
And you didn't answer as to Angels! | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Originally posted by Iconoclast
...everything you just posted just screams out metaphor, metaphor, metaphor.
INTERESTING that it did not scream out 'metaphor' to the writers of those scripture passages:
quote:
Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. (1 Pet 5:8)
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places (Eph 6:11-12).
Mk 1:12-13 At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him
Jn 12:31 (also 14:30 and 16:11) Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
II Tim. 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
II Cor. 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 2:11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
II Tim. 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
I Cor. 7:5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Eph. 4:27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
I Thes. 3:5 For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent Timothy to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.
I Tim. 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Col. 2:15 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
II Cor. 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
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billzbob
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Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Don and Icon,
I wrote: "Iconoclast...you have over applied it." Implicit in that is my recognition that there are some good things in what Icon has said. (Is that enought slack, Don?) One can recognize good ideas within what Icon has been saying without accepting the whole thing!
The expression "demonic" as applied to people, and the recognition that WE brought evil into the material world -- something that presumably immaterial (the "unseen" in the Nicene "seen and unseen") fallen angels couldn't do without our help -- points to the reality of evil, in contrast to the tradition of chalking up all problems just to legalism. (The John Romanidies quote above; which supports, actually, part of Icon's offering.)
But I wonder whether Icon is as fond of all parts, of this bouquet here, as he is to other parts. What happens if he feels he must recognize that not all biblical authors held and expressed his view. And what if he gives in and accepts the undeniable narrative of actual demons who aren't mere metaphors. In that event, I think that the OTHER things he's saying don't crumble. They have legs of their own.
- two cents | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
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Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/13/2004 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Doing chores around the house, making errands, and cooking BBQ these two passages in scripture popped into my head:
1. The Demons caste out, who entered the herd of pigs.
2. The warning advice about newly caste out demons returning later to the empty place they had come from.
Both of these lack a conscious view of metaphor on the part of the author. (And did the pigs consider the water a metaphor?)
quote:
Matthew 8:28-34
28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
How can metaphors do that?
quote:
Matt 12:43-45
43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."
For demons to be mere metaphors, then that 'truth' would here be unknown by the Unbegotten Son of God.
Also, look at The Apostle Jame's understanding:
quote:
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
I think this, maybe, is the least unabandonable part of Icon's notion.
- two cents
I see Icon as stating two things, but thinking that they are inseparable. He's saying that humans can be what otherwise would be called "demonic", but then also conflates scriptural reference to actual demons to refer only to humans.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 8/14/2004 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | .
might-be-don wrote:
quote:
BIlLZboB,
Let's be sure to give each other some space. One of the prime directives ( trek reference ) around here is to be able to state someones else's position in a way that shows we understand it.
I'm trying to understand Iconoclast's view on this issue, and I might not be as swift at it as you are so cut some slack for me.
.
Thank you.
I sincerely look forward to Iconoclast's contributions, as well.
Peace & blessings,
<><
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 8/17/2004 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Inconoclaust states:
"ha-satan is a metaphor for the evil power of our accusation and judgement of each other."
"So, who is really “the accuser”? Why, it is us. We are the ones who accuse God, who accuse each other and who accuse ourselves. This is what it means to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We become judgers of God, each other and ourselves – we accuse and out of our accusation comes evil. For, to accuse, presupposes separation from the other and it is this separation that is anti-thetical to love and therefore death.
So what is the POINT? The point is to endeavor to intimidate people away from JUDGING this persons "INTERPRETATION" of the Word of God.
If you judge their teaching as FALSE, then that leads to the biblical conclusion that anyone who teaches it is a FALSE TEACHER. This then leads to the next biblical conclusion that anyone who teaches falsely being a false teacher is destined to eternal judgment and having his part in the lake of fire along with the real non metaphoric devil and Satan.
So you see that hence by JUDGING THE TEACHING, you are in essence judging the person since the teaching is an integral part of who that person is, representing as it dose what that individual believes in his innermost being. In other words by telling someone what they are saying is “false”, you are really saying YOU ARE A LIAR. Hence the so called evil accusation THEY ARE ENDEAVORING TO AVOID!
However if what you are saying is the truth, if the person is teaching falsely and therefore A LIAR, it’s not an ACCUSATION, it’s simply the truth.
Endeavoring to make literal statements into “metaphors” when no metaphor is present is a means of deception. At the same time taking a genuine metaphor meant to describe an aspect of a literal being such as the devil and turning it into an allegory by saying it represents something it dose not is willful corruption of the Word of God. Anyone who reads enough of God’s Word knows where that leads.
Icon. stated: “we accuse and out of our accusation comes evil. For, to accuse, presupposes separation from the other and it is this separation that is anti-thetical to love and therefore death.”
This statement has no basis of truth whatsoever according to the Word of God. This kind of love is a perverted humanistic love, and not in accordance with the love depicted and taught in the Word of God that DEMANDS SEPARATION both from the things of this world and PEOPLE who do not walk accordingly, (ESPECIALLY so called “brothers” in Christ who deny the sound doctrine of the Scriptures, while quoting scripture at the same time.)
They use the Word of God deceitfully, speaking and thinking according to their own heart and not according to the gospel of Christ, that again DEMANDS that you separate yourself from every brother that walks disorderly and not after the COMMANDMENTS of Jesus Christ and his apostles.
While covertly complaining about being “accused”, they in fact are pre-accusing in order to avoid being nailed for who and what they actually are. Their very teaching itself ACCUSES you or anyone else that dose not agree with what they teach as being SATAN. Hence they are in fact doing EXACTLY what they themselves are endeavoring to avoid having done to them i.e. using accusation. Howbeit in a subtle sneeky round about manner.
Icon states to Billzbob: We are not. We are trying to get at the real "meat" of what the bible and Christianity means just like Paul asks us to do. Or are you suggesting that we should just stick with your interpretation of the scriptures? But seriously PoW. Do you really believe that us humans now have the complete and total meaning of scripture locked up? Do you believe that you now have the full and totally accurate interpretation of the full depth of scripture and the meaning of our existence? Or is there room to explore. Isn't it "God's to cover and the king's to uncover"? Isn't this what we should be doing?
What he is REALLY SAYING is that we should stick with HIS method of INTERPRETATION of the scriptures. He's trying to make Bill or anyone else who has an opposite opinion feel guilty for questioning him or actually having a firm belief in what is right and wrong.
YES these hypocrites, accuse while stating you should not accuse. At the same time they constantly harp on “interpretations” of scriptures that someone else is giving. What they want is for you to just SHUT UP and let them sling their hash all over the place without you ever questioning THEIR INTERPRETATION.
THEIR INTERPRETATION is just “exploring” and uncovering new truths. YOUR INTERPRETATION on the other hand is always narrow minded especially if your interpretation questions their interpretation.
The truth is there are more children of the harlot than of the married wife. That is why these people are always flattering and defeding one another. They attack with venum those who question THEIR INTERPRETATIONS, teaching that anyone who questions their false teachings is in league with Satan. I’ve seen it big time already among many on this board. When you “accuse” any of them of teaching something that is not in accordance with what you think the bible teaches, then you will be SATAN. When anyone confronts the teachings of their idols they turn on that person like sharks in a feeding frenzy. (there how’s that for a metaphore.)
The Bible teaches that we are supposed to SEPARATE ourselves from such teachings and from those who believe such. That dose not mean that in doing so we do not love those people who are caught up in such deception, it just means that we love God more. We believe his choose to obey his will.
Those who follow such things are corrupting the meaning of God's Word to suit themselves. The reason they are all so “tolerant” of one another, giving such voice to one another is simply because they all desire to walk on in their deceptions, deceiving and being deceived with out anyone questioning them. The "love" they speak of is not the love of God, but mere humanistic love based in global one world religion, who’s main philosophy is based on just getting along (peace and safety) regardless of what someone believes, and ultimately denying the Lord that bought them, because in truth they both hate and are ashamed of his words.
WHY DO PEOPLE COME UP WITH SUCH EVIL CONCEPTS TO PERVERT THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE, SUCH AS EVERYTHING IS A METAPHORE?
The reason is they really HATE God and hate what God's Word REALLY says. Therefore they come up with all kinds of inventions to make it seem to be saying something else. You and I just get confused and deceived because after all they talk about "Jesus", they quote scripture, they talk about "love". And because of such we fail to see them for what they really are which is HATERS OF GOD.
If you corrupt the meaning of scripture YOU HATE GOD. That is really the bottom line here. They speak of the "meat" of scripture, that they are just trying to explore and seek the "deeper" meaning. The truth is THEY DO NOT LIKE WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS, so they endeavor to change it and make it more palitable to suit their personal tastes.
What really amazes me is that they actually think they can get away with it. This just shows that in truth they do not believe that there is a real personal God that is going to judge them for their lies and corruptions of his Word. They are in fact FALSE BRETHREN, tares among the wheat, that the Lord Jesus Christ will SEPARATE out at the end of this age.
They also will say "Lord, Lord," for they ARE in fact true Christians in every sence BUT THE WORD. Hopefully some will repent before it is too late.
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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