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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 12:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Sahid,
I think the most fundamental questions are:
"Moment by moment, do we have the ability to choose between two options (in this case, sinning or not sinning?)" In other words, "Do we have the power of moral choice or not?"
"Does God command people, on pain of hell, to avoid that which he knows perfectly well they cannot?"
"When God says, 'be ye holy, for I am holy', is he just taunting us, or is he indicating that it is in fact possible (and even required) for believers to live holy?"
Sincere questions, that I believe merit sincere consideration by all who name the name of Christ.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
2 Cor. 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
I don't see how the above verses make any sense at all if sin is something that can't be avoided "by any grace received in this life" as the (Calvinistic) Westminster Confession asserts.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/27/2004 1:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE-
Am I to understand that you no longer sin?
Lock
I taught a total of four years in Wesleyan-Arminian colleges in the US, and found that the person in the pew had a poor idea what Wesleyan theology actually was.
The whole notion of whether or not a person someone knew "didn't sin" is not what Wesley was getting from the early church's sources. What WAS the issue, and what did matter WAS THE POWER not to sin. And look for that again in JEE's scripture quotes.
Charles and John Wesley got a lot from pseudo-Macarius, Gregory of Nyssa , St. Ephraim Syrian, and other fathers. (See: http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol1No2/HV1N2Wakefield.html and http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/christian_library/vol1/vol1Part2.htm and http://wesley.nnu.edu/Arminianism/ArminianMag/14-1_96.htm ) Wesley and his followers would emphasize, perhaps, the 'arival' while the early church would emphasize God's sufficency, and the potential that really can be realized.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/27/2004 1:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/27/2004 3:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I don't quite follow your reasoning on the Adam and Eve comment. If I am understanding correctly, your are saying that when we are saved and become a new creation that we are then like Adam and Eve were when they were without sin but able to choose to sin. If that were the case then would not the action of sin have the same effect as it did in the garden and each time the saint sins they then fall from grace and have to start over again and become a new creation again? The cycle would never end.
Lock
That would be true, if we assumed that one could never stop sinning this side of heaven. What a low view of the power of Christ's blood to sanctify, to think that the best the regenerate can hope for in this life is a pathetic cycle of sin-repent-sin-repent-sin-repent.
Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Thess. 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Col. 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
The secret is learning to live/abide/dwell/remain/continue in Him:
1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
JEE-
Am I to understand that you no longer sin?
Lock
Why would my obedience or disobedience affect the truth of Scripture?
If God's word says "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning," and you say, "but everybody keeps on sinning so long as they live in this body," whose word am I to listen to?
If God's word says, He "is able to keep you from falling" am I to believe this or not?
I am sorry. My post does look sacastic, in reality I am trying to understand your view of the matter. 1 John 1:8 "If we should be saying that we have no sin we are decieving ourselves and the truth is not in us." We are even told that if we do sin that Jesus intercedes for us (2:1). John wrote this letter to saints, who were still sinning. As long as we are alive, the law within our members will be warring against the law of our mind (Rom. 7:23). We are to render ourselves as dead (crucified with Christ on the cross)and now our lives are hid in Christ. For me personally to say that I no longer sin would be a lie, but I am assured that my life is hid in Christ and when God see me, He sees the righteousness of Christ. Does this sound similar to your line of thought, or not?
Lock
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I am sorry.
No apology necessary. I didn't take your post as sarcastic at all. I hope mine was not taken that way, either.
quote:
My post does look sacastic, in reality I am trying to understand your view of the matter. 1 John 1:8 "If we should be saying that we have no sin we are decieving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
If 1:8 means, "We cannot help but sin perpetually," then the same inspired writer flatly contradicts himself in 1 John 3:6-9, 5:18, and 2:1 by saying "if." In addition, the inspired writer has inscribed a palpable untruth by saying "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If sin is an autonomic occurence that is basically equivalent to breathing, and sanctification is analogous to perpetually trying to wash a mud statue, then the promise of God of cleansing from ALL sin is simply bogus.
From the NET Bible
quote:
1:8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,21 we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Footnote:
21tn Grk “say we do not have sin.” The use of e[cw + aJmartiva (ecw + Jamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where e[cw governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12-13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of aJmartiva would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression e[cw + aJmartiva occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin. The context of 1 John does not imply libertinism (where sins are flaunted as a way of demonstrating one’s “liberty”) on the part of the opponents, since the author makes no explicit charges of immoral behavior against his opponents. The worst the author explicitly says is that they have failed to love the brethren (1 John 3:17). It seems more likely that the opponents were saying that things a believer did after conversion were not significant enough to be “sins” that could challenge one’s intimate relationship with God (a relationship the author denies that the opponents have to begin with).
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
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We are even told that if we do sin that Jesus intercedes for us (2:1).
Yes, without this all would surely perish.
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John wrote this letter to saints, who were still sinning.
Again, that supposition directly contradicts the verses immediately preceding and following 1:8, as well as several other verses in the same letter. Are we to conclude that this epistle contradicts itself?
quote:
As long as we are alive, the law within our members will be warring against the law of our mind (Rom. 7:23).
Romans 7 is in the present tense, but so are chapters 6 and 8, which directly contradict the idea that Romans 7 is the highest any Christian can ever hope to attain in this life.
quote:
We are to render ourselves as dead (crucified with Christ on the cross)and now our lives are hid in Christ. For me personally to say that I no longer sin would be a lie, but I am assured that my life is hid in Christ and when God see me, He sees the righteousness of Christ. Does this sound similar to your line of thought, or not?
Obviously, we disagree. When he spoke to the churches in Rev. 2 & 3, our Lord didn't say, "I only see My imputed righteousness when I look at your sins."
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I think it is also important to see the difference of the evangel for the circumcision (Those addressed in Rev. 2 and 3) as compared to the evangel for the uncircumsicion (the Gentiles, whom Paul was commissioned).
Ummm...Rev. 2 & 3 was not written to Jews, it was written to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Turkey).
Anyway, the dispensational slight of hand doesn't make a difference in this case. I am unaware of any Pauline passages that say anything like, "God can't see you sinning because all he sees when he looks at you is Jesus."
On the contrary, in addition to Romans 6, 8:1-14, & 2 Cor 6:14-7:1, Paul says the grace of God which bringeth salvation to all teaches us to live righteous and godly lives:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/27/2004 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Ummm...Rev. 2 & 3 was not written to Jews, it was written to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Turkey).
I suggest reading Commentary on Revelation by E.W. Bullinger. His insight on the subject is incredible.
quote:
Anyway, the dispensational slight of hand doesn't make a difference in this case. I am unaware of any Pauline passages that say anything like, "God can't see you sinning because all he sees when he looks at you is Jesus."
You are right in that was a weak paraphrase, but we are to reckon ourselves dead and yet alive in Christ. God vivifies us together with Christ and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:7-7). We have died and our life is hid together with Christ in God (Col. 3:3-4). All that we have from God, our hope, is in Christ. Christ has accomplished it, "it is finished".
Lock
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/27/2004 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [Lock]
With all due respect the scripture quoted above is only one verse in the passage and the way its quoted by many it's taken out of context. In 1 John he was not saying all saints have sin, and do sin. [Of course all men are sinners before they receive the Lord Jesus Christ but after receiving Christ they became new creations. What the 1 John passage was stating was there are those who claim to be in fellowship with God and walking in the light but if they or we are choosing to really walk in sin and we claim that wehave no sin then yes we are deceiving ourselves. Again this verse is meant for those who are claiming to be walking in the light as he's in the light but who truly are not. 
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Ummm...Rev. 2 & 3 was not written to Jews, it was written to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Turkey).
I suggest reading Commentary on Revelation by E.W. Bullinger. His insight on the subject is incredible.
It probably is. I generally find dispensationalist authors' thoughts incredible. 
quote:
Anyway, the dispensational slight of hand doesn't make a difference in this case. I am unaware of any Pauline passages that say anything like, "God can't see you sinning because all he sees when he looks at you is Jesus."
quote:
You are right in that was a weak paraphrase, but we are to reckon ourselves dead and yet alive in Christ. God vivifies us together with Christ and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:7-7). We have died and our life is hid together with Christ in God (Col. 3:3-4). All that we have from God, our hope, is in Christ. Christ has accomplished it, "it is finished".
Lock
Yes, and in Him is no sin.
1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6Whoever abides in Him does not go on sinning. Whoever continues to sin has neither seen Him nor known Him.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/27/2004 6:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God's word says "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning," and you say, "but everybody keeps on sinning so long as they live in this body," whose word am I to listen to?
Here I think is a good illustration to understand this issue. Think of an airplane and the force of gravity. Because an airplane flies it does not mean the force gravity does not exist. What it means is that the aircraft is applying certain principals which cancel out the effect of gravity in its regard. The law of gravity therefore is set aside. Well the Bible speaks of two laws the law of sin and death but also the law of life in Christ Jesus. As we walk in the life in Christ Jesus we experiencially and in every way walk free from sin and its power.
Therefore we are free from sin and the way God wants us to look upon it is that we are no longer sinners but new creations in him. We must continually walk in faith to do this for its the reckoning therefore the old man dead on a daily basis by faith, that there comes a release of the resurrection power of Jesus from within us energizing us with power to overcome sin and walk free from it. If an airplaine is in flight however and the pilot turns off the engine the aircraft is going down. Why? Becaause the force of gravity is out there in the world and it will begin to work upon the plane. So with us with the law of sin and death. But the airplane is really free from gravity in the truest sense and nobody can say that it isn't. So likewise we are free from sin and the sin nature that is as we walk in the light [the light, energy, power glory of God] as we walk in this light as he's in this light. [the light energy power glory of God]
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