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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/22/2004 3:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | For years we’ve heard the statement, “Im a sinner saved by grace.” Isn’t a more accurate way of stating what we are is that we were a sinner, we were saved by grace but now we're new creatures created in Christ Jesus, with the life of God within?
quote:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co_5:17)
Does this mean that we can’t or won’t ever sin? No. But let us ask ourselves this, is not the old man [as the scripture speaks of the sinful nature] didn’t it die with Jesus on the cross? Are we not to reckon and view the old man as dead, not dying but dead? Are we not truly free from sin In Christ. I think of it in this way that yes the force of sin is always upon us but in the same way that gravity surrounds an airplane. As long as the aircraft applies the laws of aviation which keep that airplane airborne gravity in the true sense of the word is dead or does not in any way shape or form effect the plane. I would say it is the same with us. We are In Christ, if we’ve received the Lord Jesus into our hearts, and being in Christ we are no longer sinners. Why do people magnify the work that Satan did in the fall, and almost consider it greater then the work that Jesus did in redeeming us? Should we not always rather say we are New Creations in Christ Jesus? The New Creation is actually the work that Jesus did and what he made us and how the Father now looks upon us? Should we not say what God says about us?
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Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85
| Posted 8/23/2004 2:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
Colossians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
Romans 1:
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
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.
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7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Yes we are saints, at the same time we are still sinners.
saint != sinner
two contradictory states
We're still sinners? You don't believe in the efficacy of Jesus' death and resurrection then.
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Armchair Theologian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/26/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | The Apostle Paul calls us saints, borg calls us sinners, who are you going to believe?
hmmmmm
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath RECONCILED us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of RECONCILIATION; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of RECONCILIATION. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye RECONCILED to God." (2_Corinthians 5:17-20.)
"The LORD said to her,
'Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body'" | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/26/2004 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by borg
Yes we are saints, at the same time we are still sinners.
saint != sinner
two contradictory states
We're still sinners? You don't believe in the efficacy of Jesus' death and resurrection then.
We our saints dressed in the cloak of Jesus’ righteousness, naked we are sinners.
So no sex for you Saints. 
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/26/2004 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | And yet Paul declares what a "wretched" man he is, though he has been saved... hmmm... salvation an already and a not yet? I think so. if you are a new creation, why do you still deal with sin? if the old has gone, why do you still sin? if you are a saint, why do you still sin?
blessings,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/26/2004 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | armchair, i'm not saying you shouldn't side with the apostle. Please DO!! but at the same time as Paul declares that he is a saint, he is saying that he is a wretched man, that he still struggles with sin. given the idea that we are saints and not sinners, that salvation is not an already and not yet; i don't know how you can be consistant. i'm not contradicting St. Paul, i'm merely pointing out that i believe salvation is already and not yet, something you would disagree with.
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/26/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | ATTENTION ALL SAINTS: Please line up here to purchase your indulgence to sin. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/26/2004 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
and the point being... according to some Greek scholars, no argument can be based off of tenses, but can they?
blessings,
borg
The point being that one cannot argue "Romans 7 is in the present tense; therefore, Paul must have been describing his present state as a believer in that chapter," and then turn around and not argue the SAME for Romans 6 and Romans 8:1-14, both of which directly contradict the depiction of helplessness and defeat found in 7:14-24.
Romans 6 says the believer is FREE from sin, and that sin shall NOT be your master, for you are not under law but under grace; Romans 7 says "I am in bondage to sin," and "I cannot do the things I know I should," "O wretched man that I am..." Romans 8 then comes out with Paul saying, "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death" (which he had just been describing in ch. 7 in present tense).
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/26/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
if you would like to say that sin and evil are similar, Jeremiah 2. but i don't see how Paul would be contradicting himself necesarily. again, as much as i hate to do it, i appeal to experience. do you often find yourself in the same situation as described in Romans 7?
grace to you and your household,
borg
Could you be more specific with regard to what sins you find yourself unable to overcome by God's power? In my experience, most people just have too vague a definition of sin; they think that for some reason sin is basically like breathing (autonomic). All of the words in Scripture that are translated "sin," "transgression," etc., speak of sin as a conscious choice one makes.
As far as I am aware, no, I am no longer a slave of sin, for the Son has made me free, all glory be to God. As Paul exclaimed, "for the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/26/2004 4:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Armchair Theologian
quote:
Originally posted by borg
armchair, i'm not saying you shouldn't side with the apostle. Please DO!! but at the same time as Paul declares that he is a saint, he is saying that he is a wretched man, that he still struggles with sin.
Just as Adam and Eve, who weren't sinners, could choose to sin, so can saints. But our state has changed, we are "new creatures" as Paul says; we're saints.
That's why I prefer the biblical "saints" over "sinners saved by grace". If we're still in the state of being sinners, then Jesus' death and resurrection isn't very effective.
Armchair-
I don't quite follow your reasoning on the Adam and Eve comment. If I am understanding correctly, your are saying that when we are saved and become a new creation that we are then like Adam and Eve were when they were without sin but able to choose to sin. If that were the case then would not the action of sin have the same effect as it did in the garden and each time the saint sins they then fall from grace and have to start over again and become a new creation again? The cycle would never end.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/26/2004 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by borg
if you would like to say that sin and evil are similar, Jeremiah 2. but i don't see how Paul would be contradicting himself necesarily. again, as much as i hate to do it, i appeal to experience. do you often find yourself in the same situation as described in Romans 7?
grace to you and your household,
borg
Could you be more specific with regard to what sins you find yourself unable to overcome by God's power? In my experience, most people just have too vague a definition of sin; they think that for some reason sin is basically like breathing (autonomic). All of the words in Scripture that are translated "sin," "transgression," etc., speak of sin as a conscious choice one makes.
As far as I am aware, no, I am no longer a slave of sin, for the Son has made me free, all glory be to God. As Paul exclaimed, "for the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
Can a person not be a slave to sin but yet still be a sinner?
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Lock
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/26/2004 4:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I don't quite follow your reasoning on the Adam and Eve comment. If I am understanding correctly, your are saying that when we are saved and become a new creation that we are then like Adam and Eve were when they were without sin but able to choose to sin. If that were the case then would not the action of sin have the same effect as it did in the garden and each time the saint sins they then fall from grace and have to start over again and become a new creation again? The cycle would never end.
Lock
That would be true, if we assumed that one could never stop sinning this side of heaven. What a low view of the power of Christ's blood to sanctify, to think that the best the regenerate can hope for in this life is a pathetic cycle of sin-repent-sin-repent-sin-repent.
Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Thess. 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Col. 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
The secret is learning to live/abide/dwell/remain/continue in Him:
1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/27/2004 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I don't quite follow your reasoning on the Adam and Eve comment. If I am understanding correctly, your are saying that when we are saved and become a new creation that we are then like Adam and Eve were when they were without sin but able to choose to sin. If that were the case then would not the action of sin have the same effect as it did in the garden and each time the saint sins they then fall from grace and have to start over again and become a new creation again? The cycle would never end.
Lock
That would be true, if we assumed that one could never stop sinning this side of heaven. What a low view of the power of Christ's blood to sanctify, to think that the best the regenerate can hope for in this life is a pathetic cycle of sin-repent-sin-repent-sin-repent.
Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Thess. 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Col. 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
The secret is learning to live/abide/dwell/remain/continue in Him:
1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
JEE-
Am I to understand that you no longer sin?
Lock
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I don't quite follow your reasoning on the Adam and Eve comment. If I am understanding correctly, your are saying that when we are saved and become a new creation that we are then like Adam and Eve were when they were without sin but able to choose to sin. If that were the case then would not the action of sin have the same effect as it did in the garden and each time the saint sins they then fall from grace and have to start over again and become a new creation again? The cycle would never end.
Lock
That would be true, if we assumed that one could never stop sinning this side of heaven. What a low view of the power of Christ's blood to sanctify, to think that the best the regenerate can hope for in this life is a pathetic cycle of sin-repent-sin-repent-sin-repent.
Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Thess. 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Col. 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
The secret is learning to live/abide/dwell/remain/continue in Him:
1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
JEE-
Am I to understand that you no longer sin?
Lock
Why would my obedience or disobedience affect the truth of Scripture?
If God's word says "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning," and you say, "but everybody keeps on sinning so long as they live in this body," whose word am I to listen to?
If God's word says, He "is able to keep you from falling" am I to believe this or not?
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