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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 4:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Three cheers for John and all here!!! A really, really substantive discussion!!!


May I PLEASE make some peanut-gallery comments to John's post if I keep them really small?

quote:
John: I subscribe to the Moral Government/Grotian theory of the atonement, which has historically been the majority Arminian view as well.


Fred: As I read what you posted it struck me that the MG.G view keeps a portion of what I'd otherwise presume to be Augustinian. As with below, where I underlined.


quote:
John: Though certainly there are symbolic and inspirational aspects to it, at its core Christ's death was substitutionary, in that it was a substitute FOR the penalty that we deserved--death and hell. That is, the atoning death of Christ is the means by which God can be just, and the justifier of him that has faith in Jesus. Christ's death satisfied the demands of justice in that now God is able to both uphold His holy and righteous Law, and forgive sinners who repent and place their faith/trust in the atonement. If God had provided no atonement, God could not have righteously forgiven without denying His own moral law. For God to deny his own Law would be sin.


Fred: The WHOLE idea of there being "justice" that is larger than God, that God "has to" answer to, is what Romanadies suggests comes from Augustine's pagan background. www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm . "ORIGINAL SIN ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL" (also linked above)

quote:
Romanadies: "The justice of God has been revealed uniquely and fully only in Christ. No man has the right to substitute his own conception of justice for that of God." . . . The justice of God as revealed in Christ does not operate according to objective rules of conduct, but rather according to the personal relationships of faith and love. . . . Only God can bestow life and this He does freely, according to his own will, in His own way, and at the time of His own choosing.

(and)

On the other hand, it is a grave mistake to make the justice of God responsible for death and corruption. Nowhere does Paul attribute the beginnings of death and corruption to God. On the contrary, nature was subjected to vanity and corruption by the devil, who through the sin and death of the first man managed to lodge himself parasitically within creation, of which he was already a part but at first not yet its tyrant.

(and)

Neither can the death of Adam, or even of each man, be considered the outcome of any decision of God to punish. St. Paul never suggests such an idea.

(and)

To get at the basic presuppositions of Biblical thinking, one must abandon any juridical scheme of human justice which demands punishment and rewards according to objective rules of morality. To approach the problem of original sin in such a naive manner as to say that tout lecteur sense concilura qu'une penalite commune implique une offense commune, and that thus all share in the guilt of Adam, is to ignore the true nature of the justice of God and deny and real power to the devil.

(and especially)

For St. Paul, the justice of God and the love of God are not to be separated for the sake of any juridical doctrine of atonement. The justice of God and the love of God as revealed in Christ are the same thing. In Romans 3:21-26, for example, the expression, "love of God," could very easily be substituted for the "justice of God."

(from ORIGINAL SIN ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL, by John S. Romanides)


It appears that Romanadies would suggest that the MG view retains some Augustinian elements. He, it seems, would suggest shedding them.

=========================================================

quote:
John

Adam's fall brought mortality (death) into the human race. This mortality unfailingly triggers self-seeking/selfishness (otherwise know of as sin). Adam's fall in fact greatly aggravated the subsequent human condition, through physical depravity (diseases, genetic defects and weaknesses), which in turn greatly increase the selfish impulses of all his progeny. Adam's fall also greatly affected all mankind by virtue of the bad influence that a sinful parent has on his/her children. This is also how I understand the "generational curse" concept--sins being "passed down" from generation to generation by influence of sinful examples of adults on children. As you might be able to tell from my above statements, I have no problem with the idea that Adam's sin gravely affected all his posterity.



Personally, I'm finding it helpful to keep both of these two things in front of me: outside influences and inside weaknesses. Neither is sin. But they both play a role!

Thanks, John.


=========================================================

quote:
John

What I meant to say was that young children, until they reach an age of knowing good from evil, are by definition unable to make moral decisions. As I referred to above, I did not mean to say that they did not have a tendency to selfishness or self-seeking, just that they were by definition innocent until they reach the age at which they understand right from wrong. Self-seeking is the root cause of all sin, in my view.


There was a guy in Antioch names Theodore of Moptusia (sp?) who held a view that part of Christ's righteousness was due to his acts--that he earned standing that way. His view is suspect. Christ IS the way the truth and the life. Its PERSONAL. His very being. I think T. of M. opens the door to the "merits" business (though the line of history probably didn't trace that direction). And I wonder about how it might play in this discussion too. Is the REAL issue one of actions or of relationship.?

I've noticed that the Calvinists expect a "Profession of Faith" of those ages 8 to 19, and the Baptists expect "conversion" of their children, and the Lutherans and Catholics "confirmation," and the Orthodox "first confession." (I think that is the best understanding of what is really going on, BTW.) Somewhere, at the "age of accountablility" something new is required.

Is it that we are somehow more "morally accountable, or that we need sins confessed?

I think that really small infants do sin. (I'm a father of two sons.) But they do not need, nor can they make a "confession." Repentance for them is quite different. They do "turn around and go the other way" but what is involved is more basic, more simple. And "more relational, spatial, temporal, visceral.

More reflections on that are deserved.


=========================================================

quote:
John (answering: “Is it theoretically possible for one to live sinlessly?

From birth to death, theoretically yes, or else Jesus was not really human. Also, I do not know how else we can be truly responsible/guilty for sin if it is something we were born with and had no control over whatsoever. However, I do believe that because of all the above factors, all will choose to sin (please note the emphasis) when their personality is developed enough to know right from wrong. And this is because of selfish motivation.


A big "YES" to the unasked (asked on this board a few times) question of whether Jesus was "really" tempted. God got tempted, and suffered temptation. He had the potential as a human to sin; but willed not to sin. Orthodox piety holds that Mary also, relying on God's grace, chose not to sin -- BUT, note, still required salvation in the ONE mediator who died and rose... And in that iconographic piety holds that icon of Mary's faithfulness as proof that YOU AND I CAN tap into that same promise! It is a "liturgical" belief--not a speculative one: "Remembering our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God." The EMPHASIS is on commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God, and, liturgically, the proof of Chirst's work on the cross is the outcome of salvation. That is why in Orthodox liturgies EVERYTHING ends with reference to Mary -- even though the FOCUS of everything (!) is The Cross of Christ.


Thanks.

Fred
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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This whole "babies go to hell" thing seems to be a strawman to me. One can believe in original sin and still believe that God saves babies by Grace, just as he saves adults by grace. In other words, it is NOT EARNED. So what if Augustine said babies go to hell? Do we then discredit his whole theology based on some things we don't agree with?

And if you find it unfair that babies go to hell- a lot of people would find it unfair for any good person to go to hell. Some people believe the Jews in the holocaust went to hell - isn't that pretty unfair?

The point is - God saves by grace, in his sovereign judgment - he gives mercy to those whom he gives mercy.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have to AGREE with RD here!

quote:

This whole "babies go to hell" thing seems to be a strawman to me. One can believe in original sin and still believe that God saves babies by Grace, just as he saves adults by grace. In other words, it is NOT EARNED.



But my thoughts to the issue of "unfair" goes along with Romanadies, that God is NOT fair (R.C.Spraul has a good story about the student who unwisely asked for what he deserved on a project--instad of the grace that was being extended to him.) Again, a reading of what I quoted from R. helps.

But...

quote:
And if you find it unfair that babies go to hell- a lot of people would find it unfair for any good person to go to hell. Some people believe the Jews in the holocaust went to hell - isn't that pretty unfair?


In a way, then, it IS fair for all to "go to hell" as we bring this on ourselves. By the same token it might not be "fair" to bring baies into the world--one in which their mortality and environment plot against them.

But....

quote:
The point is - God saves by grace, in his sovereign judgment - he gives mercy to those whom he gives mercy.


THANKS BE TO GOD, FOR JOHN 3:16.

GO PREACH THE GOSPEL!!!!!
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Laika
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

GO PREACH THE GOSPEL!!!!!



lost sinner: "how can you claim there's a loving God when there is so much evil in the world?"

OVer: "love is not real unless it's chosen and in order to have choice the potential to choose for or against must both be present, so God gave us free choice and some choose to create evil"

Calvinist: "who are you, oh worm, to question the living God?"





Edited by - Laika on 06/19/2003 10:40:10 AM
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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laika - your gross oversimplification is appalling and offensive.
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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
but, to play along:

lost sinner: "So, God is so desperate for Love that he allows people to commit evil acts - he allows unspeakable human and animal suffering- he allows cancer, AIDS, heart disease, disabilities, deformities - he allows earthquakes, tornados, etc. to wreak havoc - all b/c he wants love? what's up with that?"

Calvinist: "These are good questions, and we don't understand what God's reasons are for allowing and ordaining evil. But we trust God that he is sovereign and in control and knows what he is doing - and that somehow, all things do work together for Good eventually."

OV: "Well, God really really wants humans to love him. And in order for htere to be love there has to be complete and total freedom. I don't know why."
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Laika
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ReasonableDoubt
quote:

lost sinner: "So, God is so desperate for Love that he allows people to commit evil acts - he allows unspeakable human and animal suffering- he allows cancer, AIDS, heart disease, disabilities, deformities - he allows earthquakes, tornados, etc. to wreak havoc - all b/c he wants love? what's up with that?"



Which do you think sounds worse, allowing people to do all that evil stuff, or actively planning and creating that evil Himself? Don't you see the difference?


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Laika

Calvinist: "who are you, oh worm, to question the living God?"



See the thread "And YOU thought you knew Calvinism... "
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=567


And ask anybody, I HATE Strawman. And "Calvinist bashing!" (Same thing.)


See also: Our World Belongs to God www.crcna.org/crbe/crbe_ourworld.htm

quote:
Preamble

1. As followers of Jesus Christ,
living in this world—
which some seek to control,
but which others view with despair—
we declare with joy and trust:
Our world belongs to God!

2.
From the beginning,
through all the crises of our times,
until his kingdom fully comes,
God keeps covenant forever.
Our world belongs to him!
God is King! Let the earth be glad!
Christ is Victor; his rule has begun. Hallelujah!
The Spirit is at work, renewing the creation. Praise the
Lord!

3.
But rebel cries sound through the world:
some, crushed by failure
or hardened by pain,
give up on life and hope and God;
others, shaken,
but still hoping for human triumph,
work feverishly to realize their dreams.
As believers in God
we join this struggle of the spirits,
testing our times by the Spirit's sure Word.
4.
Our world has fallen into sin;
but rebellion and sin can never dethrone God.
He does not abandon the work of his hand;
the heavens still declare his glory.
He preserves his world,
sending seasons, sun, and rain,
upholding his creatures,
renewing the earth,
directing all things to their purpose.
He promised a Savior;
now the whole creation groans
in the birth pangs of a new creation.

5.
God holds this world
in sovereign love.
He kept his promise,
sending Jesus into the world.
He poured out his Spirit
and broadcast the news
that sinners who repent and believe in Jesus
can live
and breathe
and move again
as members of the family of God.

6.
We rejoice in the goodness of God,
renounce the works of darkness,
and dedicate ourselves to holy living.
As covenant partners,
called to faithful obedience,
and set free for joyful praise,
we offer our hearts and lives
to do God's work in his world.
With tempered impatience, eager to see injustice ended,
we expect the Day of the Lord.
And we are confident
that the light which shines in the present darkness
will fill the earth when Christ appears.

Come, Lord Jesus!
Our world belongs to you.


(and)

The Missions of God's People

44.
Following the apostles, the church is sent—
sent with the gospel of the kingdom
to make disciples of all nations,
to feed the hungry,
and to proclaim the assurance that in the name of Christ
there is forgiveness of sin and new life
for all who repent and believe—
to tell the news that our world belongs to God.
In a world estranged from God,
where millions face confusing choices,
this mission is central to our being,
for we announce the one name that saves.
We repent of leaving this work to a few,
we pray for brothers and sisters
who suffer for the faith,
and we rejoice that the Spirit[6]
is waking us to see
our mission in God's world.

45.
The rule of Jesus Christ covers the whole world.
To follow this Lord is
to serve him everywhere,
without fitting in,
as light in the darkness,
as salt in a spoiling world.

46.
We serve Christ by thankfully receiving our life
as a gift from his hand.
We protest and resist
all abuse and harm of this gift
by abortion, pollution, gluttony,
addiction, and all foolish risks.

47.
Since God made us male and female in his image,
one sex may not look down on the other,
nor should we flaunt or exploit our sexuality.
Our roles as men and women must conform
to God's gifts and commands
as we shape our cultural patterns.
Sexuality is disordered in our fallen world;
grief and loneliness are the result;
but Christ's renewing work gives hope
for order and healing
and surrounds suffering persons[6]
with a compassionate community.

48.
We serve Christ as singles,
whether for a time or a life,
by undivided devotion to the work of God
and so add our love and service
to the building of his kingdom.

49.
In marriage and family,
we serve God
by reflecting his covenant love
in life-long loyalty,
and by teaching his ways,
so that children may know Jesus as their Lord
and learn to use their gifts in a life of joyful service.

50.
In education we seek to acknowledge the Lord
by promoting schools and teaching
in which the light of his Word shines in all learning,
where students, of whatever ability,
are treated as persons who bear God's image
and have a place in his plan.

51.
In our work, even in dull routine,
we hear the call to serve our Lord.
We must work for more than wages,
and manage for more than profit,
so that mutual respect
and the just use of goods and skills
may shape the work place,
and so that, while we earn or profit,
useful products and services may result.
Rest and leisure are gifts of God
to relax us and to set us free
to discover and to explore.
Believing that he provides for us,
we can rest more trustingly[6]
and entertain ourselves more simply.

52.
Grateful for the advances
in science and technology,
we make careful use of their products,
on guard against idolatry
and harmful research,
and careful to use them in ways that answer
to God's demands
to love our neighbor
and to care for the earth and its creatures.

53.
Since God establishes the powers that rule,
we are called to respect them,
unless they trample his Word.
We are to obey God in politics,
pray for our rulers,
and help governments to know his will for public life.
Knowing that God's people
live under many forms of government,
we are thankful for the freedoms
enjoyed by citizens of many lands;
we grieve with those who live under oppression,
and we work for their liberty[6]
to live without fear.

54.
We call on governments to do public justice
and to protect the freedoms and rights
of individuals, groups, and institutions,
so that each may freely do
the tasks God gives.
We urge governments to ensure the well-being of all citizens
by protecting children from abuse and pornography,[6]
by guarding the elderly and poor,[7]
and by promoting the freedom to speak, to work,
to worship, and to associate.

55.
Following the Prince of Peace,
we are called to be peacemakers,
and to promote harmony and order.
We call on our governments to work for peace;
we deplore the arms race
and the horrors that we risk.
We call on all nations to limit their weapons
to those needed in the defense of justice and freedom.
We pledge to walk in ways of peace,
confessing that our world belongs to God;
he is our sure defense.



Fred



Edited by - fred on 06/19/2003 11:06:40 AM
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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1. First - it's not God making the evil - it's him ordaining it - which means allowing it through part of his plan. Sure we don't know why - but the unknown purpose defense says that God has his reason that he is sovereign and knows more than we can comprehend.

2. Under your view God still is ordaining the evil, b/c he's powerful enough to step in and prevent much of it, but does not do it. You say b/c he wants us to choose love. For many people that doesn't cut it -doesn't outweigh the horrors of suffering and evil.

3. At least under the traditional view GOd has a plan and we can trust in that. Under your view - God's along for the ride much like we are - he can't see evil coming b/c free choices can't be known prior to them being made - but even after they are made and he knows it - he still doesn't step in to stop innocent suffering.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Laika

Which do you think sounds worse, allowing people to do all that evil stuff, or actively planning and creating that evil Himself? Don't you see the difference?


Help me out here, Laika. Are you saying that God is the author of evil, or that he is holding off on judgement until more can be saved (tares and wheat). What do you see as Biblical.

Say it without refering to "-isms." (Again, I HATE Strawmen. None of my missions and justice conscious Reformed friends are "strawmen." )
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Laika
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
fred
quote:

Help me out here, Laika. Are you saying that God is the author of evil, or that he is holding off on judgement until more can be saved (tares and wheat). What do you see as Biblical.



No, God did not create evil. He created people who are able to create evil and create good. I think one of the reasons He gives us children is a model of this. When I have children, the potential for them to love me or hate me exists, yet I still go ahead and have them. In order for them to become mature adults, I HAVE to allow them to make their own choices and live with the consequences. If I micro-manage their lives forever, they will never grow into mature adults. It's a process of starting with much control by me that gives way to more freedom for them as they mature.

I think He is "tarrying" until all people groups have been exposed to the gospel. You're right, He allows the weeds to grow up with the wheat because to take out the one will damage the other. Farmers up north here, don't straight combine their small grains. They cut everything first and let it lie for awhile, once everything dries out, they combine it. The dry weeds won't choke the combine like green ones will. But to cut the weeds, you have to cut the grain as well.



Edited by - Laika on 06/19/2003 11:34:31 AM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
RD
1. First - it's not God making the evil - it's him ordaining it - which means allowing it through part of his plan. Sure we don't know why - but the unknown purpose defense says that God has his reason that he is sovereign and knows more than we can comprehend.


I'd like to set that off to the side for a moment. It needs perspective. And that PERSPECTIVE can best be gained by looking at what a proper understanding of ELECTION is. "Election" is an "office" that one can hold and not anything that belongs to oneself outright, apart from Christ. "Grace" must not be thought of as a ticket that is broken off of the role and given to you. It is a connected part of the ticket-roll. Grace isn't an abstraction. Grace is participation in God's LIFE in Christ by the Spirit. Election is office. (See Smedes on the "You Thought you Knew Calvinism" thread.)

In election the focus is not on the individual people. The focus is ONLY on Christ in whomthey are elect. ONLY ONE PERSOJN IS ELECT. Only one. And THAT one person is Christ. And either we are IN Him or we are not, and that being "in" Him is for us "our" election. The focus is on Him.

Now, turning to the pugnacious "ordaining it" of the harsh life in a fallen world. What is to be the focus. The focus HAS TO BE BEYOND just looking at our feet. The focus is on God's grace. The Focus is on the Salvation of John 3:16.

When RD writes: "he allows people to commit evil acts" (RD spaking for herself, of course; but...) those words should nean several things. First, they mean that God has not repeated the Flood, nor has God called down fire and brinstone. That's saying a lot, and it should not be forgotten. Second, they say that in the midst of all the sh** that the fall brought in, that parasitical presence of evil that mankind is himself repsonsible for (not God)... GOD Himself is still inloved. That (as I quoted above from the CRC),

quote:
"As followers of Jesus Christ,
living in this world—
which some seek to control,
but which others view with despair—
we declare with joy and trust:
Our world belongs to God!

From the beginning,
through all the crises of our times,
until his kingdom fully comes,
God keeps covenant forever.
Our world belongs to him!
God is King! Let the earth be glad!
Christ is Victor; his rule has begun. Hallelujah!
The Spirit is at work, renewing the creation. Praise the
Lord!"


In faith that:

quote:
Our world belongs to God—
not to us or earthly powers,
not to demons, fate, or chance.
The earth is the Lord's!


and

quote:
When humans no longer show God's image,
all creation suffers.
We abuse the creation or idolize it.
We are estranged from our Creator,
from our neighbor, and from all that God has made.

All spheres of life—
marriage and family,
work and worship,
school and state,
our play and art—
bear the wounds of our rebellion.
Sin is present everywhere—
in pride of race,
in arrogance of nations,
in abuse of the weak and helpless,
in disregard for water, air, and soil,
in destruction of living creatures,
in slavery, deceit, terror, and war,
in worship of false gods,
and frantic escape from reality.
We have become victims of our own sin.

. . .

But our world,
broken and scarred,
still belongs to God.
He holds it together
and gives us hope.



And SO everything points beyond just the moment. Individual things are themselves no longer the focus. ALL individual things are part of a downward spiral of dispair. But we see the upward spirial leading to redemption and restoration...

quote:
Our hope for a new earth is not tied
to what humans can do,
for we believe that one day
every challenge to God's rule
and every resistance to his will shall be crushed.
Then his kingdom shall come fully,
and our Lord shall rule forever.

We long for that day
when Jesus will return as triumphant king,
when the dead will be raised
and all people will stand before his judgment.
We face that day without fear,
for the Judge is our Savior.
Our daily lives of service aim for the moment
when the Son will present his people to the Father.
Then God will be shown to be true, holy, and gracious.
All who have been on the Lord's side
will be honored,
the fruit of even small acts of
obedience will be displayed;
but tyrants and oppressors,
heretics, and all who deny the Lord
will be damned.

With the whole creation
we wait for the purifying fire of judgment.
For then we will see the Lord face to face.
He will heal our hurts,
end our wars,
and make the crooked straight.
Then we will join in the new song
to the Lamb without blemish
who made us a kingdom and priests.
God will be all in all,
righteousness and peace will flourish,
everything will be made new,
and every eye will see at last
that our world belongs to God!
Hallelujah! Come, Lord Jesus.



Thanks.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laika posted:

quote:

fred
quote:

Help me out here, Laika. Are you saying that God is the author of evil, or that he is holding off on judgement until more can be saved (tares and wheat). What do you see as Biblical.



No, God did not create evil. He created people who are able to create evil and create good. I think one of the reasons He gives us children is a model of this. When I have children, the potential for them to love me or hate me exists, yet I still go ahead and have them. In order for them to become mature adults, I HAVE to allow them to make their own choices and live with the consequences. If I micro-manage their lives forever, they will never grow into mature adults. It's a process of starting with much control by me that gives way to more freedom for them as they mature.

I think He is "tarrying" until all people groups have been exposed to the gospel. You're right, He allows the weeds to grow up with the wheat because to take out the one will damage the other.



AMEN!




Edited by - fred on 06/19/2003 11:35:11 AM
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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
THis analogy between parent and child can work against your view as well. Does a parent "choose" to love her child? Does a child "choose" to love his mother? Or is that familial bond there b/c of the biological connection between the family members?
Even if we don't really "like " our parents or siblings, if we are decent people, we love them, out of respect and b/c they brought us into the world, took care of us, etc.
A good parent has an obligation to love his child, and vice versa. It's nothing to brag about to say - hey , I LOVE my kids! Or I lOVe my parents! That's expected. That comes with the territory.
I don't see much free will involved in the sense that you "decide" to love your parents. At what point did you decide to love your parents? What were the options? When you were a small child without the capability of making reasoned choices, did you love your parents any less than you do now? In fact, maybe you loved them MORE- b/c you completely trusted them- they could do no wrong in your eyes. As you grew older you maybe started to disagree with some of their viewpoints, and they became more and more fallible.
In fact Christ said it was a good thing to be like little children- they will inherit the kingdom of God. Why is that? B/c they completely and innocently trust God?
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Laika
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ReasonableDoubt
quote:

THis analogy between parent and child can work against your view as well. Does a parent "choose" to love her child? Does a child "choose" to love his mother? Or is that familial bond there b/c of the biological connection between the family members?



That's fair. However, there are people who don't bond with their kids/parents or lose that love overtime.

My twin brother has not been very lovable lately and it's by choice I still do it.

Marriage relationships are another example, probably a better one. If I could micro-manage my wife's life, would that make for a better marriage relationship?

quote:

In fact Christ said it was a good thing to be like little children- they will inherit the kingdom of God. Why is that? B/c they completely and innocently trust God?



Um, yeah. (looking around for a trap)


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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 6:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No no no! Marriages (at least modern ones) are equal partnerships. A relationship between equals.
The parent-child analogy is much more apropos - since it is not a relationship between equals. The parent is the responsible party, he makes the decisions for the children, he cares for them b/c they cannot care for themselves.
Since we are not equal to God - I can't make that marriage analogy. God is more like a father, we are more like children - as far as capability, fallibility, knowledge, etc.
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Laika
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   Posted 6/19/2003 7:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

No no no! Marriages (at least modern ones) are equal partnerships. A relationship between equals.



It works for a "love must be freely chosen" example, though. The thrill I got when I first found out my wife liked me must be a shadow of the thrill God gets when one of His children chooses to love and obey Him.

Personally, I think God gave us LOTS of examples in nature, human relationships of how He is. That's what Romans 1 is about, seeing examples of what God's character is like in things around us. Intelligent, designer, doting parent, logical, asymmetric...


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John Earp
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   Posted 6/19/2003 9:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Natural Evil is a result of the fall of Adam and the consequent rule of Satan as "the god of this age." While they can at times be "acts of God," (in the sense of divine judgment) earthquakes, tornadoes, and the like are more reasonably explained as necessary possibilities in an imperfect, fallen world.

To be sure, God did in fact use natural disasters (As in, "I create good/blessing and evil/calamity"), to elicit repentance or simply to mete out definitive judgment on nations, cities, and individuals in the Bible (such as the sons of Korah, the antediluvians, Ananias and Sapphira, and so forth). However, it does not seem necessary or reasonable to conclude that ALL natural disasters are a result of the chastening hand of the Lord.




"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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   Posted 6/19/2003 9:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

3. At least under the traditional view GOd has a plan and we can trust in that.


Simply incorrect, RD. Have you actually read ANY Open Theist's books? The OV does not say or imply that God "doesn't have a plan." Where do you get with this idea? It's simply not true of the OV.




"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net
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Christian
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   Posted 6/19/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RD said, "At least under the traditional view God has a plan and we can trust in that. Under your view - God's along for the ride much like we are - he can't see evil coming b/c free choices can't be known prior to them being made - but even after they are made and he knows it - he still doesn't step in to stop innocent suffering." This was one of several things that haunted me when I dabbled with the OV. I reached a point of nearly loathing God and Christianity altogether due to the OV's explanation of God. God actually appeared to me to be less loving in the OV than in my traditional view. I say traditional meaning the opposite view of God (as one who knows all the future). It appeared to me that being in relationship with God was not too far different than not being in relationship with him. Either way, I was ultimately the master of my destiny since my future was unknown to God. It was difficult to know where to put my faith.


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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 6/19/2003 11:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I Have read OV books - how can you have a plan without orchestrating it? If you can't know what people are going to do you can hardly have a plan, In fact many OV'ers on this board have said that people themselves are gratuitous creatures. There's some thread on it, not sure where.
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Laika
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   Posted 6/19/2003 2:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ReasonableDoubt
quote:

I Have read OV books - how can you have a plan without orchestrating it? If you can't know what people are going to do you can hardly have a plan,



We ALL have plans. And we strive to fulfill those plans without having comprehensive knowledge of a future that hasn't happened yet. God is much more able to accomplish His plans and He doesn't need to have comprehensive knowledge of a future that hasn't happened yet in order to accomplish His plans. A WEAKER God would have to micro-manage EVERYTHING in order to get His plans accomplished. A WEAKER God would have to be a control-freak. Ever worked for a control-freak boss? Look at Jesus' example. He didn't convert that many people, He delegated the rest of the task to us. THAT is the example of a powerful God. If you really want to see a Master's work, look at his pupils' work. Greater works than His, He promised us we would do. Him, working through us imperfect humans, doing greater works. That's a powerful God.

The horse is not moving anymore.







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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 2:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
At the risk of making EVERYONE mad at me...

quote:
Laika

We ALL have plans. And we strive to fulfill those plans without having comprehensive knowledge of a future that hasn't happened yet. God is much more able to accomplish His plans and He doesn't need to have comprehensive knowledge of a future that hasn't happened yet in order to accomplish His plans. A WEAKER God would have to micro-manage EVERYTHING in order to get His plans accomplished. A WEAKER God would have to be a control-freak. Ever worked for a control-freak boss? Look at Jesus' example. He didn't convert that many people, He delegated the rest of the task to us. THAT is the example of a powerful God. If you really want to see a Master's work, look at his pupils' work. Greater works than His, He promised us we would do. Him, working through us imperfect humans, doing greater works. That's a powerful God.


It has struck me, always, that in this OV versus "classical" debate that both sides are saying the same thing. And here's what they are saying: Its all about details. What's wrong is that both the OV and "classical" partisans are saying that what is important are the details. But I think that what is significant is that what really matters is something qualitatively different. And example is instructive. Say, "martyrdom." In its details martyrdom looks like a complete failure. But is presented to us in scripture as being a crown. Something is wrong with the picture, and its just that we are looking at it from the side of the frame--we don't see the "perspective" in it that way.

I think that those close to this debate have to REALLY be careful to keep in mind the FACT that in Christianity we know the truth of things by knowing their ultimate end. From that perspective of the end (eschatology) we can "see" back to interpret the meaning of everything else. And FACT is, that we live our Christian lives that way too. The one who converts and "sees Jesus" with their fresh-clean heart sees Jesus no less than those saints in Revelations 21 (or somewhere around there.)

But, I hope this is not so far out that anyone really disagrees with the way I said this.

Fred

Edited by - fred on 06/19/2003 7:56:13 PM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/19/2003 2:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's what Winghead just posted on "Beyond The Bounds."

quote:

Chris wrote:
quote:

In any case, my larger point is: If there are satisfactory answers to why God [with exhaustive knowledge of the present] doesn't stop horrific evils in the middle of their being perpetrated, why don't those also serve as acceptable answers to why [an exhaustively foreknowing] God doesn't prevent horrific evils from beginning?


There is a distinction that makes these questions of theodicy (reconciling God's goodness in light of evil) important.

First, neither view answers the question of why God allows evil to continue to exist. This by the way, includes the evil we do, or are capable of doing.

The distinction is that with Calvinism, God is viewed as ordaining everything that happens. For many, this puts the responsibility on HIM for the evil. (I realize a Calivinist might not accept that premise, but I said, "for many" it is preceived this way. I for one, agree.)

The Armininian position, along with the Open View accepts the idea of libertarian free will. These positions say that God allows other free agents to act in the world -- at least for now. These positions also hold to the idea that God also engages the actions of these free agents -- hence His using one person or group to bring judgement on another, the parting of the Red Sea, etc.

However, if God exhaustively knows the future, then he should be able to pro-actively act to prevent evil or "bad things from happening to good people," as the saying goes. For many, this means that even within the Arminian view God is responsible for evil. The idea is that God does act or choose to act, thus determining the outcome.

The OV, however, tries to reconcile God's knowledge in relation to the actions of free agents by suggesting that some of the actions cannot be known -- i.e., the future is partially open. This is a way of trying to deal with the philosophical argumment that says free agency cannot exists if God has exhaustive knowledge (EFN) of the future, and is all powerful. (The molinist position tries to deal with this question within the context of the classic position.

Again, the problem of evil remains for all views. Wolfhart Pannenberg correctly observes that you cannot answer questions of theodicy without eschatology. In his view, God IS doing something about evil, and we will see the full results of that at the consumation of the ages.

Letters From a Skeptic is not going to help you understand Greg's open theism. IMO, God fof the Possible would be a better book for that. Whether you come to the same conclusions or not, I think Greg's two motifs -- that the future is partially settled, and partially open -- fit well with what is revealed in scripture. We would all do well to engage those motifs. Personally, I do not think the anthropormophic interpretation is sufficent to explain the openness motif.

Yours in Christ,
Winghead

"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)


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John Earp
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   Posted 6/19/2003 5:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi RD,

I understand that in many people's minds, God absolutely must have settled exactly how each and every detail of history will transpire in order for us to rightly say He "has a plan." However, that does not seem logically necessary at all, as Laika pointed out.

Your question, "How can one have a plan without orchestrating it," seems based on faulty premises. Every one of us plans to do certain things nearly every moment of every day without having to orchestrate all the details, especially the details which involve other people's actions, or things like the weather, the flow or non-flow of traffic, etc.

The OV has never denied that God will ultimately triumph, that He has a purpose and a will for our lives, etc. What the OV emphasizes is simply what most evangelicals unashamedly teach and preach--as Christians we must seek God's will for our lives, with the necessary converse being that we have the ability to do other than God's will. To cite scriptures to this effect would seem superfluous.




"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net




Edited by - John Earp on 06/19/2003 11:54:28 PM
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