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It's one thing to give a gift knowing there's a RISK it will be misused. Another thing to give it KNOWING it will be misused. If I give my kid a car, I know there's a risk she'll misuse it. If I was certain she would (say) go out that night, get drunk, and end up killing herself -- yet I gave her the car anyone -- NOW one has to question my character and wisdom.

In my view, God gave free will knowing there's a risk involved, but deeming the risk worth the gain. He allows us to use our free will as we choose, for that is what free will MEANS. If he revoked it when we were going to misuse it, he never gave it. I am not free to do "a or b" if my freedom is revoked when I'm going to do "b." So freedom must be in principle irrevocable.

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Laika raises a good point.

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That was Leila not Laika. Ones an attorney/stay at home mom, the other is a dog lost in space.

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Additionally, once God saw that humans for the most part do abuse their freedom - and cause much suffering and evil, what's the point of continuing on? He now knows that humans tend to choose to go their own way , are selfish and sinful, etc. I think all of us know with certainty that the next generation of people aren't going to be fundamentally different than the previous ones. So now God DOES know - and yet he continues to allow it to go on.

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So Satan is correct:
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."

God is only lovable because of his Santa Claus-ness?
God should throw in the towel and admit defeat?

To me, that's the crux of the argument. Satan says, "God, you can only force people to love you or buy their love". God says, "I'll prove you wrong by wooing people with love, not with gifts or threats."

The downside is that by giving people choice, many will choose the opposite. So is forcing everyone better than losing some to choice?



Edited by - Laika on 06/23/2003 11:38:57 AM

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But Laika I don't follow you. If anything the story of Job showed that no matter what happened to JOb, he still worshipped God. God wasn't wooing him with love. Far from it! How can you say love was shown when all of his possessions and family were taken from him? He still followed God DESPITE this.

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I guess I see Job loving God simply because He's worthy of it. God does give us gifts and woos us that way as well. But there are times when (think Pastor Wurmbrand in a communist prison, etc.) we have the opportunity to show Satan that God is worthy of our love just for who He is, no gifts necessary. I think Satan's "original" sin was thinking God's rule is based on force and trying to wrench control from God that way.

You wonder why God doesn't call "game over" in the middle just because it appears the game isn't going His way. That would forfeit the game.

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AND, in JOb we see that God allowed Satan to have his way with Job. He pretty much told Satan- go ahead and do whatever you want to him (except kill him) and I know that he will STILL follow me. So God was in charge. Are you saying that God couldn't prevent Satan from inflicting harm? Or that he didn't know? Of course not- it was God who allowed and ordained it.

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Yes! God sets limits on Satan. What God can't control is Job's response. It was a REAL victory.

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In the last chapter of Job, he says:
"Then Job replied to the LORD :

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted. "

Sounds like Job believed God was in control all along.

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That's our differences. We both believe God's ultimate purpose will be accomplished. We differ on each person's participation in that. You believe God caused Job's responses, yet the scripture shows the limit of God's active control of Job, i.e. the good things given and the hedge. That's what Satan wanted God to remove, the things God could remove. The rest was in Job's hands. "Remove your influences, God, and leave Job on his own" is what Satan requested. Beyond that, the responses were totally up to Job.

Plus, Job doesn't have the perspective we have. We see who is really causing the evil that befell him.



Edited by - Laika on 06/23/2003 12:56:02 PM

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My interpretation is that God indeed knew that Job would still worship him.

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Yes, because they had a relationship. Not because God would cause it.
I know how my wife will respond to certain situations, not because I can cause those responses.

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Without being an Old Testament scholar - here's what I think of it. The whole point of the book is that God is in control of what happens to us, good and bad. And that we are not in a position to - "curse God and die"- that God allows things to happen to us not because of what we have done, necessarily. For Job was a righteous man, and yet God still allowed all these bad things to happen to him. The book is not so much about Job's choice to still worship God, as it is about showing how God controls all things- and that we as humans have no standing to complain about it - if you read the last couple chapters- God goes on and on about how he controls the universe- "Where were you when I laid the foundations," etc etc. Saying how he controls the animals - basically, how his wisdom controls, and that Job is nothing even close to God, so that he cannot question or complain to God.

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But also read the advice Job gets from his three "counselors" about how man cannot stand before God, or question God, etc. God says those three all spoke wrongly about Himself. I believe, like Job, like Abraham, like David, like Jacob, we CAN reason with God. We can complain to God, we CAN question God. We can wrestle with God. We CAN prevail in prayer, etc. That's what a relationship is all about.

Look what Bildad, the Calvinist, said: "How then can a man be just with God? Or how can he be clean who is born of woman?"

God's take on this:
"My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has."

Who can stand before God? Job could.






Edited by - Laika on 06/23/2003 1:17:30 PM

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So what would be so wrong about stopping it if it's so bad and out of control? Couldn't God just do that? If he REALLY did not know for sure what possibilities would obtain, once it gets going and he starts to see what's going on, if it's not what he wants certainly he could stop it.

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In my mind, either GOd has a reason for it, or he's just along for the ride like the rest of us.

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