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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/26/2004 12:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | 1 John 4:1
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist,
Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.
Look at what the demons said in light of 1 John 4:1. I would believe that the demons spoke through the power of divination and yet it appears, in one sense, that they were "confessing Jesus coming in the flesh." Obviously, this "comfessing" is not what is meant in 1 John 4. A very similar thing happens with Paul and the servant girl in Acts with similar results.
Acts 16:16
It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!” And it came out at that very moment.
The same reaction to this "confession" is found in first Jesus and then Paul.
Perhaps confessing vs. divination must have the "mind" and understanding at work? It seems we find something like this inferred in concept in 1 Co 14.
1 Co 14:15
I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
It is interesting that there must be a difference in the two passages quoted above and the preaching the "gospel" of Jesus with bad motives from Philippians 1,
"Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice."
What is the difference?
We see Paul clearly contrasts the motives of those preaching the gospel in Philippians (that still causes him to rejoice) with "no love" with those that preach with love (1 Co 13). It profits the malicious preachers nothing but Paul rejoices in the message. How different from his reaction to the spirit of divination.
In the first two examples based upon the reactions of Jesus and Paul, according to 1 John, we find the spirit of the antichrist. Is it the spirit of antichrist that we find in Phil 1? It can't be in that Paul rejoices in the gospel and that it is preached by those that understand it with their mind.
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/2/2004 6:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
1 John 4:1
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist,
Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.
Look at what the demons said in light of 1 John 4:1. I would believe that the demons spoke through the power of divination and yet it appears, in one sense, that they were "confessing Jesus coming in the flesh." Obviously, this "comfessing" is not what is meant in 1 John 4. A very similar thing happens with Paul and the servant girl in Acts with similar results.
Acts 16:16
It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!” And it came out at that very moment.
The same reaction to this "confession" is found in first Jesus and then Paul.
Perhaps confessing vs. divination must have the "mind" and understanding at work? It seems we find something like this inferred in concept in 1 Co 14.
1 Co 14:15
I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
It is interesting that there must be a difference in the two passages quoted above and the preaching the "gospel" of Jesus with bad motives from Philippians 1,
"Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice."
What is the difference?
We see Paul clearly contrasts the motives of those preaching the gospel in Philippians (that still causes him to rejoice) with "no love" with those that preach with love (1 Co 13). It profits the malicious preachers nothing but Paul rejoices in the message. How different from his reaction to the spirit of divination.
In the first two examples based upon the reactions of Jesus and Paul, according to 1 John, we find the spirit of the antichrist. Is it the spirit of antichrist that we find in Phil 1? It can't be in that Paul rejoices in the gospel and that it is preached by those that understand it with their mind.
Hey Spen!
I think this is not that difficult. Demons and true prophets may say the exact same words, yet have COMPLETELY opposite confessions. My confession is more than the words coming out...it also involves what my heart holds. I may sometimes say something unscriptural and my confession in this sense hasn't necessarily changed.
I do respect many modern-day prophets. I've known them to admit to times of missing God in their prophetic roles...yet, I don't label them false. I call them human and normal. I call them brave for being willing to go along with God's call knowing they'll face persecution both from God's(?) people as well as satan's. SHould it not be that our greatest concern is where we are...in God or not...versus where someone else is? Too, if you wonder what teachers to learn from as regards how close they are to perfect truth...most all of them will have flaws and areas where we disagree...does this mean they may be demonic?
I think the demons calling Christ "the Son of God" had evil motives. They weren't worshipping, huh? They surely wanted to bring confusion and strife. I have wondered sometimes when some in the church are sooooo constantly saying religious phrases..if they may be pleasing satan more than God...making those in the world feel Chrsitians are so kooky and flaky. Can't such "confessions" be overdone?
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/2/2004 10:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think this is not that difficult. Demons and true prophets may say the exact same words, yet have COMPLETELY opposite confessions. My confession is more than the words coming out...it also involves what my heart holds. I may sometimes say something unscriptural and my confession in this sense hasn't necessarily changed.
I do respect many modern-day prophets. I've known them to admit to times of missing God in their prophetic roles...yet, I don't label them false. I call them human and normal. I call them brave for being willing to go along with God's call knowing they'll face persecution both from God's(?) people as well as satan's. SHould it not be that our greatest concern is where we are...in God or not...versus where someone else is? Too, if you wonder what teachers to learn from as regards how close they are to perfect truth...most all of them will have flaws and areas where we disagree...does this mean they may be demonic?
I think the demons calling Christ "the Son of God" had evil motives. They weren't worshipping, huh? They surely wanted to bring confusion and strife. I have wondered sometimes when some in the church are sooooo constantly saying religious phrases..if they may be pleasing satan more than God...making those in the world feel Chrsitians are so kooky and flaky. Can't such "confessions" be overdone?
Barry,
Thank you for your post. I too think that the answer consists in the definition of "confession" or specifically what is meant by confessing Jesus is come in the flesh.
I have trouble with your statement, "I think this is not that difficult. Demons and true prophets may say the exact same words, yet have COMPLETELY opposite confessions. My confession is more than the words coming out...it also involves what my heart holds." The reason that I have trouble with it is that you make discernment contingent on knowing what the heart holds. We are told that God alone knows the heart and that we are to judge words/actions. I think that this concept of "knowing the heart" of another as the defintion of knowing their confession leads to a "burning in the bosom"-centric descernment. Ultimately this means that "by this burning in our bosom we know the spirits" and this is exactly what I don't believe and what I think this passage speaks against. quote:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
I don't think this passage is given to us to command us to "feel" if spirits and false prophets are false. I believe that we are commanded to closely consider their confession.
We agree that "confessing" must be more than a verbal statement of some kind such as the demons made. The demons prove that simply stating, "Jesus is the Son of God," is not a litmus test. A confession is more than this as you rightly point out. I believe that a confession consists in the total expression of life/words of a person and is similar to their worldview/values as it is expressed by their choices and conversations. Regarding the standard given to measure spirits/false prophets by "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh," I believe that this means the gospel message of the incarnation, the words of God given to us audibly by this man, His claim of being God, His death, and His bodily resurrection proving the truth of all that He claimed. This is the consistent message in EVERY sermon recorded in Acts, no exceptions. By this standard neither the demons nor the false High Priests met the bar and they are exposed by their confessions as false.
AI believe that we are to apply this to modern "prophetic ministries." I believe that most (if not all) of popular prophetic ministries have fairly orthodox confessions in their published statements of faith. This, however, is no more a "confession" than the words the demon spoke. Is the gospel central and clearly proclaimed as the overiding message of their minstry, from the pulpit, on their cassette tapes, in their books and in their life? We speak and proclaim and focus on what is most important. If they are not gospel-centric then according to this passage, they are false. Motives are not even mentioned or considered. I don't need to know the motives of the demons to decide if their confession is valid. I also don't need to know the motives of false prophets and spirits to know if their confession is valid either.
Nowhere in this "test" does John say that false spirits/prophets need to DENY that Jesus came in the flesh to be false. The demons didn't even do this. While some may actually deny Jesus coming, this is fairly obvious and it is difficult to become too popular in Christian circles with an explicit denial. Instead, God clearly tells us that simply failing to confess is the way we know the false. The ministries of "prophets" like Paul Cain (whom I have met at my father-in-law's home), Bob Jones (whom I have also met there), Rick Joyner...ad nauseum...fail this test with a focus that is not gospel-centric. (I am curious which ones you believe to be "true prophets) This lack of the gospel in practice, not in a statement of faith on some website, is a lack of confessing Jesus coming in the flesh.
To your statement, "SHould it not be that our greatest concern is where we are...in God or not...versus where someone else is? Too, if you wonder what teachers to learn from as regards how close they are to perfect truth...most all of them will have flaws and areas where we disagree...does this mean they may be demonic?"I respond that to fail to compare a teacher's content to perfect truth is sinful because we are commanded to discern, and given the reason why."Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/3/2004 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake:
Nowhere in this "test" does John say that false spirits/prophets need to DENY that Jesus came in the flesh to be false. The demons didn't even do this. While some may actually deny Jesus coming, this is fairly obvious and it is difficult to become too popular in Christian circles with an explicit denial. Instead, God clearly tells us that simply failing to confess is the way we know the false. The ministries of "prophets" like Paul Cain (whom I have met at my father-in-law's home), Bob Jones (whom I have also met there), Rick Joyner...ad nauseum...fail this test with a focus that is not gospel-centric. (I am curious which ones you believe to be "true prophets) This lack of the gospel in practice, not in a statement of faith on some website, is a lack of confessing Jesus coming in the flesh.
To your statement, "SHould it not be that our greatest concern is where we are...in God or not...versus where someone else is? Too, if you wonder what teachers to learn from as regards how close they are to perfect truth...most all of them will have flaws and areas where we disagree...does this mean they may be demonic?"I respond that to fail to compare a teacher's content to perfect truth is sinful because we are commanded to discern, and given the reason why."Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Hey Spen!
I think I would love getting to know those prophets personally. I've read about Paul Cain and have pastor friends who have been ministered to by him. It really seems that he is a true prophet. I'd be very,very slow in saying things against him or any minister...and especially to label them "false". I admire Rick Joyner and JP Jackson, whose books I read often. I guess I would possibly agree that there emphasis is often not the central truth of the gospel of salvation. Didn't the Hebrew author(me think it's Paul) express concern that he couldn't go on to deeper things in Heb 6? I do think there's a definite time and place to minister to people prophetically, as you shared has happened to you. Isn't there times when the Holy Spirit will have messages for us that are not just on the core salvation issues? I do think too, many ministers are so wound up about theirs that they seem to think everyone should be doing that ministry too...evangelism, pastoring, and prophesying...whichever the case.
I would ask for grace for these prophet types. One I have heard diirectly and a favorite of my pastor is Art Katz. He would be one I would hold up as very serious about God and Truth...seasoned and with timely messages, not frivlous, not given to showboating. The thing is all of these are humans, will make mistakes, will have times of failures and will need the body to have complete lives and ministries.
I hope you aren't in this stream where the emphasis is what's wrong with minsters and doctrines rather than gospel truths. I see tendencies in my family to be more concerned with such things. They love to read the heresy hunters...Dave Hunt, Hank Hannagraf, the Bobgans. I get in trouble with my family for reading anyone these guys have labeled as trouble. I purposely go get the books they disrecommend and have greatly enjoyed every one. I feel many critics don't know the people or subject matter that they contend with. Many say they try to contact the heresy hunters and are not engaged or heard or no attempt at understanding comes forth. I want to be like Christ and like Christ in Ravi Zacharias, who has enough love and spirit to be able to hang out with Buddhist priests, enjoying their company and exploring each other's belief system without having to battle over who's right and who's wrong.
IN your time with the prophets mentioned were you impressed with their walk in God or not? Is it something you tend to do:searching out the basic beliefs of others? I do. I do it not to correct, but to try and understand how they've come to believe. I want to be teachable, even by those outside my usual stream of thought and practice.
Enjoying discussion,
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/4/2004 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Barry says, quote:
I think I would love getting to know those prophets personally. I've read about Paul Cain and have pastor friends who have been ministered to by him. It really seems that he is a true prophet. I'd be very,very slow in saying things against him or any minister...and especially to label them "false". I admire Rick Joyner and JP Jackson, whose books I read often.
I believe that Paul Cain is a deluded man and a false prophet. I also believe that he actually has been associated with manifestations of supernatural power, which makes him even more dangerous than a charlatan. JP Jackson and his teachings on dreams wrecked the Vineyard church in Aurora, CO. If you go to his site http://interpretmydream.com/ he has classes to become a certified dream interpreter and subscriptions at 4 different levels of "service" for subscribers to submit their dreams for interpretation. I have no qualms about callind him a deluded false prophet. Rick Joyner is even worse.
I have no comments on Art Katz except that he is an extremist. I had a friend of mine that went and joined his ministry living at his place, I think it was called Camp Zion, and left after a few years with a poor opinion. I don't know him personally myself. I have been impressed by the character of some of these men and their willingness to make personal sacrifices to further their beliefs. I could not say that I am impressed with their "walk with God," as you put it. My observations is that they walk with spirits and do not confess the gospel and Jesus coming in the flesh. While they may not deny the gospel, they present other "truths" and "revelations" that they claim are necessary for us to accept and believe to grow spiritually. I am saddened at both their popularity and influence in the church. I believe that they fail the test of 1 John 4:1. While the men you mentioned may be sincere and may do works of power and cast out demons in Jesus' name, I believe that it is these men and men like them, sincere men, that Jesus speaks about in Matthew 7.
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing...“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Spen Lake
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