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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 9/10/2004 9:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | recently i engaged in a debate among some atheist friends of mine and we were discussing whether the existence of hell made God evil. they argued that it did because people aren't that bad, sins are trivial things, no sin is worth the price of hell, and that anything we did could be forgiven easily anyways. i tried to argue that hell is the result of a just God who punishes sins. i argued that hell exists because God is just and thus if it didn't exist, God would not be good because he would not be just. they argued that any God who would send billions of people to hell over things like lying or cheating or coveting wasn't worth their time and they would rather spend eternity in hell than be with such a being.
what are your thoughts? what do you think hell is like? is it just annihilation? is it torture? do you think most people will end up there? do you think that hell has to exist for God to be just?
thanks in advance.
God_Is_Truth | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/10/2004 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/10/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | When they say that they are not that bad, they are comparing themseves to other people, and normally the really bad ones. It is real easy to say you are better than Hitler or Judas. This is not the standard God will hold them to, which is His glory, of which all fall short.
I, personally, do not believe that God's judgment is the lake of fire and brimstone. Those who stand before the white throne will be judged by God and their sentence will be according to their acts. After the sentence has been carried out, then they will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death. I believe that when the bible says death, it means death; not eternal life in suffering or eternal seperation from God. The bible does not say this is they eternal fate. At the end of the eons, I believe that God will resurrect and glorify those who have been dead in the lake of fire and brimstone and God will be ALL in ALL (1 Cor. 15:22-28).
There has been a good discussion about universalism here...
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3563
The questions from your atheist friends and your questions bring up issues about the character of God, if indeed He sends a majority of mankind to the christian hell. I look forward to reading the posts that follow.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/10/2004 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | GodisTruth-
Give Jerry Walls' book Hell: The Logic of Damnation a try.
If your friends can conceive of themselves not wanting to be with a certain sort of God and spending eternity in hell to avoid being with him, why can they not conceive of someone ELSE not wanting to be with the sort of God THEY believe exists, i.e., a forgiving loving God?
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 9/11/2004 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
God would be evil if he did NOT send the unrighteous (those who refuse to live their lives in submission to God's example of benevolence toward all) to hell.
If we take the definition of God's (agape) love as being unselfish goodwill toward all moral agents, we can see clearly how hell is, quite tragically, the highest good of all, and indeed, the highest good of the impenitent, just as imprisonment (even execution) of criminals by a society for the good of society is a benevolent (loving) thing to do for all.
It should come as no surprise that an atheist would question the justice of God in damnation--if they were to affirm the justice of God in sending people to hell, they would have most likely been repenting in the process of coming to this realization.
If you want to know if a thief thinks it's wrong to steal, try stealing something from him. 
Ask your friends if they think Hitler deserves hell, and why.
thanks for the advice. i will go ahead and ask them that shortly. i'll let you know what they say. | | Back to Top | | |
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Inflin8
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 9/11/2004 9:12 PM (GMT -6) | | People have sent themselves to hell. I feel the greatest most immense sadness for my confusion in determining which souls I see everywhere are bound for hell. If I could determine who was going and who was not, would I make the decision to witness with spreading seed?
Yes, I must witness to build my treasure in heaven. I must be real in friendships and mere chance discussions that develop into opportunities to tell others with my inner real demeanor about the saving grace of instruction of life; God breathed word.
Not only must we meekly seek to glorify Christ in everything we do, we must maintain our path in a true understanding of the pitfalls in talking to the unbelieving heart.
JDLC
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 9/12/2004 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
God is Truth,
quote:
thanks for the advice. i will go ahead and ask them that shortly. i'll let you know what they say.
I had posted a possible objection that your naysayers may make to John's argument. Namely, they may argue that humans are not immortal souls, and as such, there would be nor reason to torment them infinitely for a finite amount of wrongdoing.
But another objection they could make is this: Even IF humans are immortal souls, why would God not allow them to repent after death? Is there a philosophical argument that would explain why God would allow repentance until death, but not after? Just questions you might want to anticipate from them.
i've asked them the question and so far neither objections has really come out. here are a few of their responses:
"Considering that Hitler was a Christian--according to the religion, he doesn't deserve to go to hell, he actually deserves to get in to heaven since he declared Jesus as his lord and savior."
"Its all moot. Jesus said that those in Hell will one day be let back into Heaven anyway. But Peter's Apocolypse never made James 2's list so no one knows about that little secret."
"Assuming hell is eternal punishment, the idea that anyone "deserves" hell is nonsense.
If one assumes free will for the purposes of this discussion, a human crime can still only be finite in nature. However, if hell is infinite in duration, the ratio of punishment severity to crime severity, no matter the greatness of the mortal's crime, is greater than the punishment-crime ration of torturing and executing someone for stealing a piece of paper."
"If "justice" is an equity between offense and punishment, then eternal damnation for Hitler is unjust because his offense is not equitably eternal. His offense was -- by stark contrast -- human, mortal, and limited.
As a judge, I would give him 80 times 180,000,000 years of self-torture -- at a minimum -- and then let him go free."
"Well, if you are using a bible as your guide to the heavens, than no.
It is a well known fact that Hitler poisoned himself with cyanide, and his mistress Eva Braun did as well when they were closing in on them hiding in the bunker."
"A great justice would be if Hitler's heaven or hell would be full of Jews, Gyspies and Slavs. Or perhaps he will come back (a reincarnate hell) as a puppy dog that is abused to death. Does he deserve to go to hell? Ok, let me get this straight. A primitive person, living before the time of Christ who lived a kind and gentle life will go to hell because he didn't accept someone not yet born as his savior, and the likes of Hitler can do as he pleases, be responsible for the deaths of millions and still go to heaven? That doesn't add up on my common sense calculator.. "
what do you guys make of their responses? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/12/2004 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Why does everyone chose Hitler to pick on? Paul stated that He was the worst of sinners because he persecuted the church. Paul was overwhelmed by the grace of God. Is it fair that Hitler was not given the same opportunity as Paul?
Those who believe are resurrected 1000 years before the white throne judgment, so basically all those raised to stand before the white throne are going to be tossed in the lake of fire.
quote:
"If "justice" is an equity between offense and punishment, then eternal damnation for Hitler is unjust because his offense is not equitably eternal. His offense was -- by stark contrast -- human, mortal, and limited.
Now, if the lake of fire and brimstone is the sentence then why have the jugding? People should just be raised and tossed in. Romans 2:6 calls it the DAY of indignation (not an eternity) and just judgment of God. Does it not make more sense for God to judge them according to their acts, have the sentence carried out before Him, and then they are tossed into the lake of fire and brimstone, which the bible clearly describes as the second death?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/17/2004 6:10 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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the Wicker Man
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 9/17/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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