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I disagree with you that prayer is a metaphysical weapon in the sense that I meant it. Extreme examples of what I am referring to can be found in Rick Joyner's book The Final Questin which Christians enter into the realm of the spirit and do actual battle with the evil spirits using weapons like swords, shields, etc. in a metaphysical combat. They imagine themselves in the place of Michael fighting Satan over the body of Moses. Faith is likened to a shield but it isn't a shield. The expression was a metaphor, not something that happens to someone entering the spiritual realm like something out of the "Matrix" and finding a shield to use in the battle.

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In as much as we pray according to how scriptures tell us how to pray, this is good.

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If we beging to bring railing judgments against Satan and his horde in prayer, it is not fine but is sin.

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You’ve got this ‘thing’ for demanding explicit and unequivocal scriptural ‘proof’ for beliefs you disagree with. I doubt there is very much at all that is provable in this sense. But it’s not omni-providence that I’m arguing anyhow. It’s omni-benevolence, or love. I don’t know what meaning to give to the word ‘love’ if it’s consistent with being desirous and able to prevent evil but just choosing (all things being equal) not to.

What’s your understanding of love, Jeff?

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Spenlake: If we beging to bring railing judgments against Satan and his horde in prayer, it is not fine but is sin.

Selah: I guess I'm lost on this one too. Where does scripture teach that this is sin? What does "resisting the devil" look like?

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Jeff: I believe God is benevolent, I just don't know how that works in all cases.

Tom: So what DO you understand "love" to be?

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Jeff: If we can't make predictions about what the world will "look like," given what we believe about how God loves, what's the point?

Tom: If I can’t make predictions about how the complexity of the world will always play out, I can make a prediction about how God will act—always faithful to his promise and doing all he can to prevent and/or minimize evil.

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Jeff: Our views are NOT radically different…

Tom: If you say so. Being right about where we’re different was never the goal of the discussion. I wasn’t really into trying to place distance between our views. In the end, that I affirm God is omniscient while you deny this, or that our views on providence are very different, or that I affirm God does all God can, given all the creational factors involved, to prevent and/or minimize evil while you deny this (or doubt it), yeah I’d say we’re pretty different on these matters. So what?

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We can still enjoy each other’s fellowship and look forward to having a great time celebrating life when we see Christ face to face!

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Tom: So what DO you understand "love" to be?

Jeff: The short answer is 1 Cor. 13.

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Jeff: If we can't make predictions about what the world will "look like," given what we believe about how God loves, what's the point?

Tom: If I can’t make predictions about how the complexity of the world will always play out, I can make a prediction about how God will act—always faithful to his promise and doing all he can to prevent and/or minimize evil.

Jeff: But it is not a testable prediction. It is really a deduction from your definition of love.

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Jeff: Your sense of ignorance is about the complexity of the world and the difficulty that creates for proving how love and providence work out in specific cases. My ignorance is more about how to make specific verses work in a given theory. In both instances, it is God whose character we are defending.

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Tom: We can still enjoy each other’s fellowship and look forward to having a great time celebrating life when we see Christ face to face!

Jeff: Amen!

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So, does God interfere with the free will of demons? I'd say yep. If they are solidified against Him (He has full knowledge of good and evil)and they are enemies of Good.

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Originally posted by Leila

Hi all - I'm having trouble understanding this stuff. Selah could you clarify the statement you made:

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So, does God interfere with the free will of demons? I'd say yep. If they are solidified against Him (He has full knowledge of good and evil)and they are enemies of Good.

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First, wouldn't all demons be solidified against God? Second, why does whether one is solidified in evil determine whether God interferes with their free will?

Thanks!

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Originally posted by TGB

Leila-

About God ‘interfering’ with the free will of demons. Like how? Like to determine them to do good things? In the case, God doesn’t seem to be interfering much. Haven’t ever heard of a demon volunteering to do something good for somebody. But if God’s kicking their butts or expelling them from somebody’s life counts as interfering with their freewill (‘cause they wanna stay in that life), then yeah, God interferes. If opposing and struggling against their will is counted as interfering, yeah, God and we interfering with their wills. What else did you have in mind?

I think demons and Satan are solidified against God, yes.

There seem to be examples of God’s ‘making use’ of people or nations that are intent on doing evil (like Assyria and Babylon). God uses them as instruments of judgment against Israel, for example. God ‘steers’ them in the direction he wants, but only because they are heading in that general direction already. Whether one is solidified in a particular direction for good or evil matters because presumably God would not steer somebody in a particular direction if they were not already headed in the direction and still hold them accountable. That’s God “unconditionally” determining somebody. It’s hard to see how they can be held accountable in such a situation.

Tom

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I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

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I hope that brings clarity Leila.

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If opposing and struggling against their will is counted as interfering, yeah, God and we interfer with their wills.

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Originally posted by JEE

As to humans who have hardened their hearts in rebellion against God, their continued course of increasing rebellion does nothing but store up wrath for themselves:

Romans 2:5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

For those of us who are still in a degree of flux with regard to our character, the following verses are instructive and hortatory:

1 Corinth. 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

John

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You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

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Leila: I thought that once free will was given, it couldn't be revoked, i.e., if God gives you the choice to do good or evil, but then hinders you only when you do evil, then you weren't really free to begin with. Of course, we people can all interfere with each other's wills, but that doesn't mean we are not ultimately free and responsible for many of our actions. But when God interferes with free will, isn't that, in effect, revoking it? Isn't casting out the demons taking away the demons' free will to do evil? And wouldn't God’s interference with evil in some instances necessarily mean that God allows evil in others?

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Leila: One explanation of allowing evil could of course be found in the complexity of the universe, the butterfly effect, etc. But aren’t there so many evils that operate in isolation, evils that have no “butterfly effect?” For example, a baby dies due to some horrible illness. OT would say, well that’s not because God ordained it, but because there’s evil in this world. And there’s evil in this world because people/demons/angels are free. And there’s freedom because love requires freedom. But here’s where I have a problem. It seems that you all are saying that God COULD thwart pure evil. If this is so, how then can you sometimes fall back on the argument that God’s hands are tied because he gives freewill? And if we say we don’t know why God didn’t act, not because of God’s complexity but because of the complexity of the universe, how do we explain the child’s unbearable suffering? What possible difference could it make in the universe whether….

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Leila: I also don't understand the distinction between God interfering in the free will of solidified evil agents vs. all others. For example, are you saying that if a solidified evil agent plotted murder, God could undermine their will to prevent it but if a semi-evil agent plotted murder, God is powerless?

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...I have nothing to offer in the way of an answer other than the Cross. That’s it. That’s where my journey ends. The Cross tells me that there’s nothing mysterious about the character and intentions of God. And in the end that’s what we trust in, that God is faithful and loving, not that the world is predictable and fair. Isn’t so much of the effort we invest in fine tuning our theodicies really in the end just about reassuring ourselves that God really DID do the right thing on this occasion or that occasion? What’s that but an admission that we haven’t really made up our minds about what the Cross means? My point is, the Cross eliminates the need for all that. We’re free from having to figure out the complexity.

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Perhaps noting the distinction between “freedom” and “authority” would be helpful. Demons obviously have freedom to do we they in fact do. They’re doing it demonstrates this. But this doesn’t demonstrate their authority to do what they do. I have the freedom to lie, cheat and steal. But I don’t have the authority to do these things. Having the authority to do something sanctions or condones the act. We have the freedom AND THE AUTHORITY in Christ to oppose evil. Point is, freedom to choose doesn’t mean authority to enact or execute. This is precisely why choosing to do evil is an “abuse” of freedom.

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7When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

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Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

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Tom: But what do we DO with the fact that we don’t have all the facts? I have nothing to offer in the way of an answer other than the Cross. That’s it. That’s where my journey ends. The Cross tells me that there’s nothing mysterious about the character and intentions of God. And in the end that’s what we trust in, that God is faithful and loving, not that the world is predictable and fair. Isn’t so much of the effort we invest in fine tuning our theodicies really in the end just about reassuring ourselves that God really DID do the right thing on this occasion or that occasion? What’s that but an admission that we haven’t really made up our minds about what the Cross means? My point is, the Cross eliminates the need for all that. We’re free from having to figure out the complexity.

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Selah: The way I think about it is this: fine tuning our theodicy with the intention of helping ourselves and others live well in a world that seems opposite an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent God is still a good thing. It's when we argue with one another or defend our (completely finite and probably wrong) "points" against their (completely finite and probably wrong) "points" that we get into trouble.

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Selah: I don't think we can just shut down or shut off the endless questioning in our brain without doing a disservice to ourselves/others and/or playing "pleasantville". We have to be genuine and deal with authentic questioning - always holding the Cross at the center - but speculating/reasoning together in order to gain insight and feel more congruent in our faith.

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Selah: You ask: "Isn’t so much of the effort we invest in fine tuning our theodicies really in the end just about reassuring ourselves that God really DID do the right thing on this occasion or that occasion? What’s that but an admission that we haven’t really made up our minds about what the Cross means?"

I say: "no, not for me." I think it's more of a search to deal honestly and authentically with authentic questions that come from real life events...with real life people. In the best way possible.

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Selah: For example, when a victim of an evil event comes to us with POE questions (asking us to reconcile the love/power of God with this evil) I think sharing our current understanding (even if that means THIS possibility and THAT possibility exist and frankly I'm not sure which is true) is a helpful thing to do. It seems much less helpful/practical/earthy to say "Well, the Cross is all I know" - if someone said that to me, I'd say "um ya thanks"

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Selah: So anyway, I agree that the Cross/Character of Christ is the bottom line and the Center. "if you've seen me you've seen the Father" amen. I also think that itis a sufficient answer to many of our questions and even the best guide to the answer of many of our other questions. But, it doesn't answer everything. (is God complicit in evil?...

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If in the face of this complexity we find comfort in the revealed nature of God through His death for us on the cross, we find peace and reconcilliation.

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If we refuse to believe in the God revealed in the Cross for whatever reason including of our doubts and suffering in this present evil, we will be damned.

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Originally posted by Selah

spen said

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If in the face of this complexity we find comfort in the revealed nature of God through His death for us on the cross, we find peace and reconcilliation.

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amen we all agree.

spen said

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If we refuse to believe in the God revealed in the Cross for whatever reason including of our doubts and suffering in this present evil, we will be damned.

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I don't think anyone here is "refusing to believe in the God revealed on the cross"... it's not an either/or just because someone seeks to understand how evil and suffering exist alongside an all loving all powerful God in this world. Even if we spend our whole life trying to understand, it doesn't nullify our trust/love/dependency and understanding of God revealed in Jesus Christ on the Cross.

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Originally posted by TGB

Sista Saylah! What happened to the belly dancing thing?

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Well, here I am in bed with a heating pad on my back. Moved too much furniture. But I’ve got my laptop propped up so I can still work! Is that friggin devotion to CVM or what? The TV’s on too. I have a choice between Regis and what’s her name, Judge Judy, or Jerry Springer. I’m watching Springer for now. Yuck!

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Good stuff Selah. You're the Queen of the Board!

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Selah: I don't think we can just shut down or shut off the endless questioning in our brain without doing a disservice to ourselves/others and/or playing "pleasantville". We have to be genuine and deal with authentic questioning - always holding the Cross at the center - but speculating/reasoning together in order to gain insight and feel more congruent in our faith.

Tom:
Again, yes. I agree. But I hope that placing the Cross at the center of theodicy the way I suggested doesn’t sound like Pleasantville. It doesn’t take the pain away, but I think it helps us (well, me at least) not get bitter against God.

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Selah: You ask: "Isn’t so much of the effort we invest in fine tuning our theodicies really in the end just about reassuring ourselves that God really DID do the right thing on this occasion or that occasion? What’s that but an admission that we haven’t really made up our minds about what the Cross means?"

I say: "no, not for me." I think it's more of a search to deal honestly and authentically with authentic questions that come from real life events...with real life people. In the best way possible.

Tom:
I guess I was thinking of a situation I’m in now (with my wife). We just did a memorial service for friends of ours who lost their baby in the 9th month of pregnancy. The doctors don’t know why. Just some freak thing. But she (the mother) is torturing herself with questions--"Why? What happened?" And until she gets an answer that satisfies her she feels she has no explanation but to blame God, "God’s all-powerful. He can and does step in and heal on OTHER occasions. Why not on THIS occasion?" So long as there is complexity she can’t understand, she’s holding God accountable: “God just took my baby!”

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Tom:
That’s what I was trying to get at. I guess I should have said that much of MY fine tuning of theodicy reflected a lack of trust in God’s fundamental goodness. If “I” couldn’t see the proof of such goodness in the details of the situation (and that could only come by unraveling the complexities) then I had no REAL proof that God IS love and IS good. But the proof isn’t IN solving the complexities, it’s in the Cross. The Cross tells us that were we able to understand all the inter-related complexities of creation, it WOULD show that God is loving and good, so why hold out on God's goodness until we've proved it from unraveling the complexities? That’s the basic switch I was talking about, moving FROM feeling like I have to unravel the complexities to reassure myself that God is good TO realizing that I have all the reason I need to believe God loves me and is good right there in the Cross.

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Selah: So anyway, I agree that the Cross/Character of Christ is the bottom line and the Center. "if you've seen me you've seen the Father" amen. I also think that itis a sufficient answer to many of our questions and even the best guide to the answer of many of our other questions. But, it doesn't answer everything. (is God complicit in evil?...
Tom:
You been talking to Mephi haven’t ya?

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Tom:

OK, sure, the Cross doesn’t ‘answer’ everything (like the complexities of creation and the question of complicity [that’s a tough one]), but it does ‘relativize’ everything. The Cross has something to say about everything that happens in the world. It’s the all-defining event. Everything is related to it. So I should say God IS sometimes ‘complicit’ in evil or ISN’T EVER, or I don’t know which, only AFTER relating the question to the Cross. The Cross might give us a firm answer to the question we’re asking. But if it doesn’t, it still relativizes the question. Make sense?

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I gotta change channels from Springer to Regis!

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