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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 10/2/2004 4:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | Could someone help me understand spiritual warfare under the open view?
It’s my understanding that under the OV, God granted beings – humans and angels – morally responsible freedom. This freedom is by definition irrevocable, or it wouldn’t be true freedom. As a result of this freedom, some of the beings have chosen evil.
Since God can’t revoke the free will of beings, he cannot control them. Therefore, God exerts his power over beings by influence.
I can see the plausibility of this when it comes to humans, but how does God exert influence over demons? When Jesus cast the demons out of those who were possessed and would not let them speak, how was this not revoking their freedom?
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/2/2004 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
Could someone help me understand spiritual warfare under the open view?
It’s my understanding that under the OV, God granted beings – humans and angels – morally responsible freedom. This freedom is by definition irrevocable, or it wouldn’t be true freedom. As a result of this freedom, some of the beings have chosen evil.
Since God can’t revoke the free will of beings, he cannot control them. Therefore, God exerts his power over beings by influence.
I can see the plausibility of this when it comes to humans, but how does God exert influence over demons? When Jesus cast the demons out of those who were possessed and would not let them speak, how was this not revoking their freedom?
Leila, great question. I know as I read Boyd on this I like alot of his view. This subject to me is very mysterious. My pastor has disagreed strongly with the way many in our group wage spiritual warfare. So many of my thoughts are more on what I don't believe than explanations of exactly how this works. What I hate the most is the idea, seemingly Calvinistic, that God is so Sovereign, He even commands the devil and the demons. This too, in OVT, is anathema. I look hard for those who agree that satan lost big during Jesus crucifiction. Satan had been the ruler of the world. He still has a title similar to that, but Jesus took the keys to death and hell from satan. Jesus says all authority has been given to Me. I do believe satan is still with us. I don't believe satan has unlimited access to us. I believe for a true Christian, satan should not be much of a threat. We can stay in Christ. We can stand on the word. We can confront dark powers that attempt to attack us, using the Name, the Blood, and our testimony(Rev 12).
In OV, Neither myself nor satan is entirely controlled by God. I can be by choice...satan won't be also by his choice. Many Calvinists seem to think God is so "in Charge" that little or nothing need be done by them...the Sovereign Will shall be accomplished, regardless. To me, open view is so much more true and effective, so much more like my hero, John Wesley used to teach..."if man doesn't pray, God doesn't move". It seems to boil down to becoming passive or active. I don't believe the great moves of God in history were just times he decided to move...but times when mankind got desparate enough to cry out to Him...especially in prayer. There seems a huge conflict in men today whether their crying out to God will really make any difference in heaven. I say...nearly all the difference.
People writing far more deeply and from personal experience: Derek Prince, Leeann Payne, John Eldredge, Beth Moore. All authors in the mainstream. Maybe not OV, but good imho on the subject.
Prayer changes things and me.
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 10/3/2004 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
Could someone help me understand spiritual warfare under the open view?
It’s my understanding that under the OV, God granted beings – humans and angels – morally responsible freedom. This freedom is by definition irrevocable, or it wouldn’t be true freedom. As a result of this freedom, some of the beings have chosen evil.
Since God can’t revoke the free will of beings, he cannot control them. Therefore, God exerts his power over beings by influence.
I can see the plausibility of this when it comes to humans, but how does God exert influence over demons? When Jesus cast the demons out of those who were possessed and would not let them speak, how was this not revoking their freedom?
Hi Leila,
I want to take a shot at answering this by focusing on the interplay between TWT5 (freedom is irrevocable) and TWT6 (freedom is finite).
According to Doc’s six “TWT theses”, freedom is irrevocable, but limited. Creaturely freedom is limited both in terms of scope and duration. Only God can know precisely how much freedom is necessary to accomplish God’s objectives for Creation. Thus, only God can know the extent and limitations of any given creature’s freedom or how those limitations define the limits of a creature’s “say so” in any given situation. We can speculate about how far a creature’s “say so” must extend in a given situation based on what we know (or what we assume) about God’s objectives for Creation. However, the creational factors affecting these issues are too numerous and too complex for us to ever be in position to know the extent and limits of creaturely freedom (especially in specific situations).
By giving creatures genuine (irrevocable) freedom, God gives creatures a certain amount of power. This power is real as far as it goes. However far the creature’s power extends (i.e., to whatever extent the creature has genuine “say so”), it is irrevocable. Thus, when a creature uses its “say so” against God’s purposes, God must do battle and the battle is real (because the freedom being exercised by the creature is irrevocable).
But no creature has unlimited power. Thus, when Jesus casts out demons, we don’t have to view this as revoking their freedom. Rather, we see this as a demonstration that the freedom or power granted to the demon was finite in the first place.
This helps to explain why things sometimes go God’s way and sometimes don’t. If things don’t go God’s way, we say its because contrary wills were acting within the limits of their irrevocable freedom. If things do go God’s way (such as when the demons are cast out), we say that the irrevocable freedom of any contrary wills was pushed to its limits.
Pretty slick, eh? You buying it?
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/4/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
One of the best books that I have read on the subject is by David Powlison called Power Encounters. You can find it on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801071380/qid=1096752535/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-7625227-1217434?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
I grew up with the teachings of Derek Prince and still have one of his early tape series on the subject from the early 70s as people in the charismatic circles were attempting to frame their theology on the matter. I really never knew anything else. Derek was educated at Eaton UK and was a brilliant and amazing man. He was a personal friend of my wife's father and stayed in their home several times during which I had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife. He was a noble man ready to sacrifice for what he believed in, and he believed that his teachings on spiritual warfare were something that had been "lost" in the church. He felt that these lost truths were being rediscovered and would be critical in the battles of the end times.
It is my opinion that David Powlison's book deals with the issues in a much stronger way than Derek Prince. I have personally paid and know many others who have also paid a heavy price for embracing the teachings that Derek believed to be so essential and true. I would recommend that you read both books and make your own decision as to which is scripturally stronger in its arguments.
I would sure like to know what this price was. Derek was one of the five heads of the group of covenant churches I was in in the 70's. I think he was excellent on this subject and I would like to know how and where you've come to differ, Spen. My pastor knew him and his famliy and admired them...but didn't totally agree on the way deliverance was done in the meetings. I do think these things are crucial to understand and difficult to explain. That's why I listed a few authors. I know Leeann Payne has a lot of trouble with spiritual warfare as often waged and taught about. I wonder if we may be closely connected somewhere in the past? Did you know Mumford, Simpson, and Basham too?
Barry
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/4/2004 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
And I'm still waiting on verses that give any indication as to how God influences the billions of people in the world on a day-to-day basis.
Eph. 1:11(b) "...according the purpose of the One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will..."
Rom. 1:24 "wherefore God gave them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to uncleaness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves..."
Rom. 8:8(b) "the flesh is unable to please God"
Rom. 8:20-21 "Fot to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it"
Rom 9:16 "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful."
Rom 11:8 "God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not observing, and ears not to be hearing till this very day..."
Rom 11:32 "God locks all up in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."
Rom. 11:36 "...seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL..."
1 Peter 2:8 (b) "who are stumbling also at the word, being stubborn, to which they were appointed also."
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/4/2004 3:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
Could someone help me understand spiritual warfare under the open view?
It’s my understanding that under the OV, God granted beings – humans and angels – morally responsible freedom. This freedom is by definition irrevocable, or it wouldn’t be true freedom. As a result of this freedom, some of the beings have chosen evil.
Since God can’t revoke the free will of beings, he cannot control them. Therefore, God exerts his power over beings by influence.
I can see the plausibility of this when it comes to humans, but how does God exert influence over demons? When Jesus cast the demons out of those who were possessed and would not let them speak, how was this not revoking their freedom?
Hi Leila,
I think it is important to note that neither the Open View nor the Bible indicate that God never, in any case controls moral beings. In "Boydian" terms  we can say that libertarian freedom in effect becomes compatibilistic freedom, to the point that God may then control such a person whose character has become solidly evil (what Scripture calls "hardness of heart") in order to accomplish His purposes providentially. However, such unilateral inducement does not involve moral guilt on the part of the one so manipulated. They are indeed responsible for getting themselves into the state of hard-heartedness/rebellion they are in, but God only holds them responsible for what they have direct volitional control over.
As to demons and Satan, I don't think it can be seriously doubted by anyone that they are the very definition of solidified evil character. That said, certain passages such as Daniel's "Prince of Persia" fighting for three weeks with an angel of God, hindering the answer to Daniel's prayer, seems to indicate that demons do have some ability to choose to use their abilities against God's agents. (In other words, they are not in every case being used as a tool of God like "the evil spirit from the Lord" that tormented King Saul after he had been rejected by God as king of Israel).
and Paul referring to
Some past discussions we have had here on this where I have posted more substantive replies to this topic are:
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3150
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3050
Hope this helps,
John Earp
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/4/2004 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I'm pretty sure I recall Derek Prince publicly disavowing his former "shepherding/discipleship" teachings, which he, Mumford, Baxter, et al had promoted (with much controversy) in the 1970s.
Spen,
I'm interested in precisely what flaws you perceive in Prince's teachings on deliverance. I have his _Spirit-Filled Believer's Handbook_ (a compilation of much of his earlier teaching), and I used to hear him regularly on the radio, but I don't recall anything that controversial in that book with regard to deliverance per se. (My background is classical Pentecostal (A/G and CoG), and my exposure to the more extreme teachings of the charismatic movement has been mainly by way of reading their writings).
Thanks,
John
John,
I am traveling and probably can't answer you in as much detail as would be nice. What I believe was most harmful in Derek's teachings were the concepts themselves on the nature of spiritual warfare. Beyond the promoting the deliverance ministry of exorcism as a means for Christians to grow in sanctification, the groundwork was laid for a "Christian Gladiator" type concept where we get on our armor and recite special prayers of power that have the ability to bind the devil or some sub-set of his servants in a certain geographical area or activity. The number of times I've been involved in passionate prayer warfare casting down the devil's power over our city is saddening - at least by what the results have been. Instead of actively "engaging" the devil in our city by simply going out and preaching the gospel as we are commanded to do, we had vans of people praying and setting up "hedges of protection" against the forces of evil in a targeted neighborhood. Based upon Derek's ideas an entire theology of "how to bash the territorial spirits" and what technologies to use against which demons has grown up. C. Peter Wagner and Global Harvest Ministeries have invested millions (I think around $4 million) in IT systems to help them in spiritual mapping in preparation for their apostolic movement http://www.globalharvestministries.org/index.asp?action=about Ted Haggard is the pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs which is affiliated with C. Peter. FYI, this group is also now very involved with the mega-church North Heights Lutheran that is a significant church in the Minneapolis area.
The whole concept of "binding and loosing" the demons is flawed in that the terms "binding and loosing" were rabinical terms for permitting or forbidding in the context of the law. Any serious biblical scholar will support this. The parallel concept of "generational curses" and other latent curses that must be "revealed" by prophets and others gifted in the revelatory also grows out of Derek's teachings. Instead of encouraging Christians that Christ became a curse for us and that curses cannot "get us" because of the gospel, these teachings do the opposite - they belittle the gospel's power. The same goes for the teachings on territorial spirit, et al. I believe that there actually are territorial spirits in some complex hierarchy and that they are malicious and have my best dis-interest in mind. I am grateful for the truths Paul gives us in Colossians and Ephesians that tell us that Christ is over all seated in heaven far above all these beings and that, while they are greater than me, I can have confidence in the blood of Jesus and His promise to keep me.
In summary, I believe that these teachings, while perhaps taught by sincere men, are an attack on the gospel and its sufficiency. Christ has already won the spiritual war. We experience the war of faith to believe His promises in the face of the evil we expereince - this is the battle. We combat the forces of evil not as some spiritual Rambo, but by humbly, boldly and lovingly preaching the gospel to all who will listen.
I may not be very clear but I hope you can deceipher what I mean.
Spen Lake
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/4/2004 6:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I'm pretty sure I recall Derek Prince publicly disavowing his former "shepherding/discipleship" teachings, which he, Mumford, Baxter, et al had promoted (with much controversy) in the 1970s.
Spen,
I'm interested in precisely what flaws you perceive in Prince's teachings on deliverance. I have his _Spirit-Filled Believer's Handbook_ (a compilation of much of his earlier teaching), and I used to hear him regularly on the radio, but I don't recall anything that controversial in that book with regard to deliverance per se. (My background is classical Pentecostal (A/G and CoG), and my exposure to the more extreme teachings of the charismatic movement has been mainly by way of reading their writings).
Thanks,
John
John,
I am traveling and probably can't answer you in as much detail as would be nice. What I believe was most harmful in Derek's teachings were the concepts themselves on the nature of spiritual warfare. Beyond the promoting the deliverance ministry of exorcism as a means for Christians to grow in sanctification, the groundwork was laid for a "Christian Gladiator" type concept where we get on our armor and recite special prayers of power that have the ability to bind the devil or some sub-set of his servants in a certain geographical area or activity. The number of times I've been involved in passionate prayer warfare casting down the devil's power over our city is saddening - at least by what the results have been. Instead of actively "engaging" the devil in our city by simply going out and preaching the gospel as we are commanded to do, we had vans of people praying and setting up "hedges of protection" against the forces of evil in a targeted neighborhood. Based upon Derek's ideas an entire theology of "how to bash the territorial spirits" and what technologies to use against which demons has grown up. C. Peter Wagner and Global Harvest Ministeries have invested millions (I think around $4 million) in IT systems to help them in spiritual mapping in preparation for their apostolic movement http://www.globalharvestministries.org/index.asp?action=about Ted Haggard is the pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs which is affiliated with C. Peter. FYI, this group is also now very involved with the mega-church North Heights Lutheran that is a significant church in the Minneapolis area.
The whole concept of "binding and loosing" the demons is flawed in that the terms "binding and loosing" were rabinical terms for permitting or forbidding in the context of the law. Any serious biblical scholar will support this. The parallel concept of "generational curses" and other latent curses that must be "revealed" by prophets and others gifted in the revelatory also grows out of Derek's teachings. Instead of encouraging Christians that Christ became a curse for us and that curses cannot "get us" because of the gospel, these teachings do the opposite - they belittle the gospel's power. The same goes for the teachings on territorial spirit, et al. I believe that there actually are territorial spirits in some complex hierarchy and that they are malicious and have my best dis-interest in mind. I am grateful for the truths Paul gives us in Colossians and Ephesians that tell us that Christ is over all seated in heaven far above all these beings and that, while they are greater than me, I can have confidence in the blood of Jesus and His promise to keep me.
In summary, I believe that these teachings, while perhaps taught by sincere men, are an attack on the gospel and its sufficiency. Christ has already won the spiritual war. We experience the war of faith to believe His promises in the face of the evil we expereince - this is the battle. We combat the forces of evil not as some spiritual Rambo, but by humbly, boldly and lovingly preaching the gospel to all who will listen.
I may not be very clear but I hope you can deceipher what I mean.
I hear ya, spenlake. I'm ashamed to admit that I've had some involvement with such nonsense in the past myself, and I agree with you completely. Nowhere in Scripture are WE taught to "bind the strongman." Jesus has already done that.
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 10/5/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | As a newcomer to open theism, I'm really confused here...
JET - are you saying that God's ability to intercede is limited to the extent that power was granted? Doesn't this imply that God is placing limits on the amount of evil that is done -- and wouldn't this then in effect be like God condoning "lesser evil?" Doesn't this present a line-drawing problem? I'm not sure I fully understand the implications of your position.
John - You said: quote:
God may then control such a person whose character has become solidly evil (what Scripture calls "hardness of heart") in order to accomplish His purposes providentially...
What do you mean? How can you say God controls someone who is evil? I don't get it.
Let me see if I can ask the question again using a tangible example:
Let's assume a loved one has been the victim of some horrendous evil that we deduce can only be ascribed to the work of demonic forces. Under the open view, if we pray to God for this person's safety, what exactly are we praying for God to do? | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/5/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
John - You said: quote:
God may then control such a person whose character has become solidly evil (what Scripture calls "hardness of heart") in order to accomplish His purposes providentially...
What do you mean? How can you say God controls someone who is evil? I don't get it.
Sorry if I was unclear, Leila. In saying "God MAY then control such a person..." I intended to imply that it is definitely NOT always the case that God controls the actions of evil people, but that in some cases (such as Pharoah during the Exodus), God can control them in order to bring about His sovereign purposes.
But this would not mean that in every case of evil, God is controlling the evil person, nor that in any case of evil, the evildoer does not himself truly will to do the evil also. It is just that their character has been solidly formed for evil, and so God is simply (in some cases, as with Pharoah), using the evil person to accomplish His providential purposes.
quote:
Let me see if I can ask the question again using a tangible example:
Let's assume a loved one has been the victim of some horrendous evil that we deduce can only be ascribed to the work of demonic forces. Under the open view, if we pray to God for this person's safety, what exactly are we praying for God to do?
Speaking for myself for instance, I pray for my 1-1/2-year-old daughter's safety, deliverance from evil (e.g., the Lord's prayer), peace, blessing, etc. I am praying for God to provide all these things for her. However, it would be quite presumptuous of me to think that my family is somehow exempt from suffering in this life just because I'm praying for their safety. Though Scripture does in many places promise divine protection for those who "dwell in the secret place of The Most High (e.g., Ps. 91), I don't find Scripture to consistently support the idea that God's people are somehow exempted from any and all suffering, including possibly even an untimely or horrific death (though of course I hope and pray that never happens). (e.g., the Book of Job) No doubt Christian martyrs throughout history have prayed for the protection and safety of their families, and yet as Hebrews 11 says of some in the Old Testament, they did not receive deliverance in this life.
Hope this helps. Feel free to ask for further clarification if necessary. This is admittedly a difficult issue to completely explain, though I think the Scripture is clear that we are to be engaged in a spiritual warfare against evil. And in any war, there are sometimes casualities, *especially* among the most faithful, "frontline" warriors.
Sincerely,
John
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 10/5/2004 1:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi John - Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you're saying now about God using evil people to accomplish his purpose in some instances, but I am still puzzled about God's relationship with evil in other instances.
Of course I understand that none of us, no matter how faithful, are immune from evil. But our prayers to God are supposed to be our spiritual weapons. So we ask God to protect us from evil and so forth. So if we pray for protection, we must believe that God has some kind of power over these evil beings, right? But how does He have power over them without interfering with their free will? Dr. Boyd says that God guides us by influencing us, not coercing us. Does God also influence evil? How do you conceptualize the mechanics of this?
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/5/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
quote:
I think it's safe to say that Scripture affirms God's ability to limit evil, though for some reason (inexplicable to us at least) God has not chosen to end the war completely right now, and so in a certain sense it is true that God allows evil to continue for now, limited though it may be. I seem to recall either Dr. Boyd or Dr. Sanders saying that they don't know why God doesn't just annihilate Satan now and end all evil. I must admit I don't know, either, except that 2 Pet. 3:8-9 says Christ's delay in returning is so that more people may have the opportunity to repent. I would like to hear more OVers opine on this.
It also says God forebears with the intent to show His wrath. This seems to imply that God is not mad enough to EXPRESS His wrath, and since that's how God wishes to end the world, we're not "done" yet. Apart from this, one might wonder why the certain suffering of humans now is less weighty to God than the possible future repentance of some. Not to say that such suffering is not less weighty - it just needs explaining by Doc, in my opinion, to make his view complete.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/6/2004 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
Hi John - Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you're saying now about God using evil people to accomplish his purpose in some instances, but I am still puzzled about God's relationship with evil in other instances.
Of course I understand that none of us, no matter how faithful, are immune from evil. But our prayers to God are supposed to be our spiritual weapons. So we ask God to protect us from evil and so forth. So if we pray for protection, we must believe that God has some kind of power over these evil beings, right? But how does He have power over them without interfering with their free will? Dr. Boyd says that God guides us by influencing us, not coercing us. Does God also influence evil? How do you conceptualize the mechanics of this?
Thanks for helping me with this.
Hi Leila,
since tom is being a slacker  I'll say a couple of things. His would be much better, less rambling etc. but... well, maybe I'll taunt him until he gets in here and fixes my post -- how's that 
First of all, I'm not sure about the framework of the OV you are wondering about here. Just the fact that God is at war and prayer (along with other variables) matter in this war - should witness strongly to the OV -- as opposed to any predetermined view. (can you imagine God preplanning battles (and each individual winner of those battles) and then actually ENTERING into those preplanned battles Himself? ummmmmm nah. )
I understand that God influences free agents, but the amount of "influencing" must vary. Remember, He's the only one with ALL the knowledge of good and evil. Influencing probably looks very different from free agent to free agent. And, probably depends on (unknown to us) factors that only God can discern. I'm guessing three things here 1) Hitler and other "evil" people could have turned for the good (had potential to do so)and 2) God knows when/if they are solidified against Him/Good and will war/resist them in whatever way He can (given His self-limitations). 3) We don't know/get what that looks like. What we do know is that we are co-workers WITH Him (in the war) for the Good.
So, does God interfere with the free will of demons? I'd say yep. If they are solidified against Him (He has full knowledge of good and evil)and they are enemies of Good. They ARE evil. If He tells US to resist evil. I'm sure He resists evil as well. He wars against them. What that looks like - I don't know. It seems to me that all we can do is focus on what we DO know... and that is the variables (prayer, the faith of the one praying, the one being prayed for, sometimes fasting etc)...and our part in the war aligning all that we can for the side of the Good.
For what it's worth,
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/6/2004 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi guys!
(Selah, this is for you! )
Great discussion. Selah’s right though, I’ve been slacking! Blew my back out a few days ago and have been laying down on the job since then. I wonder if demons did this to me. Hmmm.
Leila, if you really want to get into a discussion of when, if, and how God gets involved in preventing evil, you should check out the “Carlie” thread. Here’s the link: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3043. But I’m warning ya, it’s 39 pages and not always pretty. The only thing it's missing is Doc's involvement.
John’s right, this is a complex issue. Here are my 2 cents:
Get the complexity right. For determinists, the complexity, or let me say the mystery, of evil is to be located in God. This has to be the case for determinism, since everything that happens, good and evil, is unconditionally decreed by God to happen as it does. This means that the answer to the question “Why?” is always "That's how God wanted it to be." This means the mystery of evil is a mystery about God’s will. For me this calls into question the character and love of God. Determinists won’t agree with that last part, but I’ve yet to hear an explanation of how a God who ‘unconditionally’ determines every evil (as well as determines the secondary causes that bring about his decreed evils) is not also responsible for evil. Whatever open theism’s weaknesses are (and there are no weakness-free theologies), it at least gets this much straight. It has a view of God’s relationship to the world that makes sense of attributing the blame for evils to the agents who are responsible for them. I say "makes sense" because determinsts will obviously agree that agents be held accountable for the evils they commit even if they cannot "make sense" of this. But the open view locates the mystery of evil in the right place, that is, in the complexity of creation and not in the character of God. This doesn’t tell us why on one occasion some evil was prevented and why on another it was not, but it at least tells us that the reason why is found in the free-will complexities of the world and not in God. So even if you never find an answer for your question, Leila, you can still have every reason to trust God. That’s good news.
Why believe this much? Why locate the mystery of evil in the complexity of creation and not attribute it to God’s unconditional decree? The fundamental answer, I believe, is the Cross. The Cross tells us what God thinks of evil and assures us of what sort of person God is.
Secondly, see spiritual warfare as something we live all the time and not just a particular form of intercessory prayer we engage in some of the time. We are always in battle, always at war, always on guard, as well as being engaged in this war through more than just particular prayers we offer but also in the choices we make, how we spend our time, what relationships we pursue, what activities we put our time into, etc.. I see “spiritual warfare” as equivalent to “living the Christian life.” They’re completely identical. Life is war.
Thirdly, if it’s true that Christ utterly defeated Satan on the Cross and that demons are subject to his name (i.e., his authority), it’s also true that this defeat is not yet final. It’s like the Allied landings on the beaches of France in WWII. Once securely established, the landings of the Allied forces guaranteed the ultimate defeat of Hitler even if there was still much fighting ahead and many casualties to come. Perhaps this is a good analogy of the sort of relationship we have to evil powers at work in the world today. Yes, they’re defeated in a sense, but only in the sense that Hitler’s final and ultimate defeat became a certainty when the Allied forces invaded Europe. The war rages on, and there are casualties on both sides. That’s why AFTER the cross, WITH all the authority of Christ on our side, the war includes BOTH advancing victories AND retreating defeats. So I’d place your question right here in the already/not yet-ness of Christ’s victory in a fractured creation.
Putting these three together, I’d say that we can be confident that God does all he can do to prevent evil, but when unable to prevent it (due to the irrevocable nature of free will) he does all he can to minimize it. That’s enough for me. All the questions about whether or not, under which circumstances, and how God is able to make compatibilistic use of hardened agents or intervene miraculously or chase demons out of town, etc., all have to do with the complexities an all-good and all-loving God faces in a fallen world where free-willed agents misuse their freedom and where fallen spiritual agents constantly work at conflicting creation. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s enough simply to know that the mystery of why evil is sometimes prevented and sometimes is not, why demons are sometimes cast out and sometimes are not, why our children sometimes escape harm and sometimes do not in spite of our faithful prayers for them, is entirely attributable to the fractured and fallen reality we live in and not to the character and love of God. It’s the faithful character and love of God we trust in anyhow, not that the world is fair or predictable or that suffering is always evenly and justly distributed. So I’ve totally given up debating in detail specific evils and asking “Where was God?” or “Why didn’t God prevent this?” Simply knowing THAT the answer is found in the complexities of creation is enough. Knowing God’s character revealed in Christ on the Cross, we are free from the insane pursuit of having to figure out what the facts were behind any specific evil.
In the end, the Cross spells the end of theodicy. Would you agree with that Mephi? Tap, tap...hello? Mephi?
Not sure that helped, but that’s where I am.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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