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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > faith and the warfare worldview | Forum Quick Jump
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 3/26/2005 2:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | | I second Tom's comments RE: the WWV. While I certainly admit that UNREGENERATE people have "generational curses," I do not subscribe to the idea that one's spiritual health depends upon trying to identify all these things and "bind" them, etc., for IN CHRIST, we are free from those curses, with the exception being that until the resurrection of our bodies, we are still subject to mortality (which entails death and sickness).
But none of that stuff is intrinsic to the Warfare Worldview. When I refer to the WWV, I only mean to affirm that recurring theme of scripture which reveals that we are in fact in a cosmic war between good and evil.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
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Reader
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/26/2005 2:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | I understand that the Warfare Worldview is not homogeneous and unified in its beliefs. The "generational curses" is just one flavor of belief that weakens the gospel. In some sense, however, I agree with the Warfare Worldview in that the whole wolrd currently lies under the dominion of the evil one. Because Christ has saved us out of the world and given us His spirit as a pledge of what is to come, we now proclaim the gospel to all who will listen and through this will plunder captives in the kingdom of the strong man as some of them believe and join our ranks. Now we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and our confession of His work and we love not not our temporal lives unto the death. Not pain-free for the moment but we have the promise of a body that never dies and we will never sin again. | | Back to Top | | |
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Reader
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/28/2005 12:27 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE says that he agrees with Tom, "When I refer to the WWV, I only mean to affirm that recurring theme of scripture which reveals that we are in fact in a cosmic war between good and evil."
Reader asks:
1. How do you apply this belief and act upon it to do warfare?
2. What are the means of your warfare?
3. What does "winning" look like to physical eyes?
I maintain the means of warfare is simply confessing the gospel. I believe that tangible "winning" in this war looked like the bodily resurrection of Christ to the physical eyes of His disciples - which we too can believe as a factual event in time/space. In that first-fruits demonstration of victory in this cosmic battle we have confidence that we too will be granted ultimate victoiry over death and given resurrected bodies as well - at the eschaton. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 3/28/2005 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | Hi Reader, (spenlake, right?)
You said: 1. How do you apply this belief and act upon it to do warfare?
2. What are the means of your warfare?
Not saying I have it all down pat, but some of the ways I find to be scripturally waging spiritual warfare would be: Preaching the Good News of Christ's kingdom, teaching and learning God's truth, earnest prayer, fasting, living a holy life worthy of Christ (as Meph says, "embodying the kingdom"), faith in God's promises that "greater is he that is within me," faith in God's power to overcome the Devil through me, faith that no matter what, the victory has already been accomplished at Calvary and will without fail eventually (in the eschaton) be realized completely.
3. What does "winning" look like to physical eyes?
We walk by faith, not by sight. We may not ever see with our physical eyes the results of God's work in and through us in prayer. As far as the Resurrection of Christ goes, I agree the apostles saw that with their own eyes, but I haven't had that privilege. I am in the category of those who believe, even though they have not seen.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 3/28/2005 11:50:28 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/28/2005 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Reader (emphases mine):
I maintain the means of warfare is simply confessing the gospel. I believe that tangible "winning" in this war looked like the bodily resurrection of Christ to the physical eyes of His disciples - which we too can believe as a factual event in time/space. In that first-fruits demonstration of victory in this cosmic battle we have confidence that we too will be granted ultimate victoiry over death and given resurrected bodies as well - at the eschaton.
With all due respect, Reader, I think this is quite incomplete, at best. The whole point of "warfare" is declaring AND EMBODYING the victory that Jesus ultimately claimed for us via his life, death, and resurrection. What is the "gospel" but the KINGDOM OF GOD as brought by Jesus, the Christ? I submit to you that as the BODY of that Christ, we are to continue declaring and embodying the Kingdom of God as Jesus's disciples. And this goes way beyond merely "confessing" the Gospel. The expansion of God's Reign operates systemically on ALL levels that the kingdom of darkness operates (ie the "flesh", the world, and the devil) through the hearts and work of the community of God's people in Christ through the enablement of the Spirit.
All of this would include but not be limited to praying against demonic activity in the world.
My thoughts.
PS: I, too, appreciated your transparency and openess of your sharing. Thanks! 
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Reader
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/28/2005 12:59 PM (GMT -6) | | |
John,
I am with you except I need more definition on what you mean by "Earnest prayer." I have experienced people believing this means "reviling angelic majesties" as in Jude 8 and arrogantly threatening the devil with being cast into the pit or some other imprecation if the devil doesn't obey their prayers.
A prayer of faith entrusting ourselves into the hands of our loving Father and crying, "the Lord rebuke you Satan," seems more scriptural to me. We confide ourselves to God and ask Him to deliver us when and as He will. We pray that he might take our "messenger from Satan", the cup of affliction, suffering and evil away from us and yet proclaim, "Not our will, but your will be done." I appreciated the comments of might-be-don. If we cannot add a cubit to our height or an hour to our life, how can we claim to issue commands to angelic powers that are greater than us?
As long as the WWV encourages us and inspires us to confess the gospel and our dependency on God, it seems harmless. If, on the other hand, it inspires us to seek out new warefare technologies and mystical "weapons" like contemplative prayer, I believe it is damaging and weakens the gospel itself - impacting the war negatively.
Reader (aka Spen)
Post Edited (Reader) : 3/28/2005 12:30:27 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 3/28/2005 1:45 PM (GMT -6) | | |
John,
I am with you except I need more definition on what you mean by "Earnest prayer." I have experienced people believing this means "reviling angelic majesties" as in Jude 8 and arrogantly threatening the devil with being cast into the pit or some other imprecation if the devil doesn't obey their prayers.
When I say, "earnest prayer," I mean "earnest prayer." I don't usually talk in code. 
Blessings,
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 3/28/2005 1:29:55 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Reader
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/28/2005 5:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph states:
"The whole point of "warfare" is declaring AND EMBODYING the victory that Jesus ultimately claimed for us via his life, death, and resurrection. What is the "gospel" but the KINGDOM OF GOD as brought by Jesus, the Christ? I submit to you that as the BODY of that Christ, we are to continue declaring and embodying the Kingdom of God as Jesus's disciples. And this goes way beyond merely "confessing" the Gospel. The expansion of God's Reign operates systemically on ALL levels that the kingdom of darkness operates (ie the "flesh", the world, and the devil) through the hearts and work of the community of God's people in Christ through the enablement of the Spirit."
Reader replies:
I don't think I disagree with you, Meph. When I state "confess" I did not simply mean "verbalize." Even though Paul can rejoice when the gospel is only verbalized/preached with evil motives in Phil 1, this still is not confessing in its largest sense. Confessing includes verbalizing but I understand it more as "expressing it with my whole person/resources." Overcoming in spiritual warfare is achieved believing in our forgiveness through the blood of the Lamb, the words of our confession to this wonderful work, and that we maintain this confession at all costs including our life itself. I didn't mean to cheapen the concept of confession. What I meant to emphasize is that spiritual warefare isn't some kind of mystical kungfu where masters teach us various techniques and disciplines to battle spiritual enemies in some kind of "Matrix." If you review the majority of books on spiritual warfare I believe that you will find they are written by people who claim to have found/understood some spiritual technology that they can help you master to attack and defeat Satan, taking back this fallen world for Christ and claiming His jurisdiction now in the civil/natural affairs of this world. I don't believe that this is consistent with scriptures and I believe such teachings undermine faith in the gospel itself. I have found an excellent book on the subject by David Powlison, Power Encounters.
I find spiritual warfare is often more mundane and is persevering in believing the efficasy of the gospel , the forgiveness that it purchased for me, and the truth of God's character as revealed in Christ - regardless of the present evil and my own sinful lusts. This faith will express itself in my "confession" and result in keeping me from being stained by the world.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/29/2005 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Reader: (emphasis mine)
I don't think I disagree with you, Meph. When I state "confess" I did not simply mean "verbalize." Even though Paul can rejoice when the gospel is only verbalized/preached with evil motives in Phil 1, this still is not confessing in its largest sense. Confessing includes verbalizing but I understand it more as "expressing it with my whole person/resources." Overcoming in spiritual warfare is achieved believing in our forgiveness through the blood of the Lamb, the words of our confession to this wonderful work, and that we maintain this confession at all costs including our life itself. I didn't mean to cheapen the concept of confession. What I meant to emphasize is that spiritual warefare isn't some kind of mystical kungfu where masters teach us various techniques and disciplines to battle spiritual enemies in some kind of "Matrix." If you review the majority of books on spiritual warfare I believe that you will find they are written by people who claim to have found/understood some spiritual technology that they can help you master to attack and defeat Satan, taking back this fallen world for Christ and claiming His jurisdiction now in the civil/natural affairs of this world. I don't believe that this is consistent with scriptures and I believe such teachings undermine faith in the gospel itself. I have found an excellent book on the subject by David Powlison, Power Encounters.
I find spiritual warfare is often more mundane and is persevering in believing the efficasy of the gospel , the forgiveness that it purchased for me, and the truth of God's character as revealed in Christ - regardless of the present evil and my own sinful lusts. This faith will express itself in my "confession" and result in keeping me from being stained by the world.
I see what you are saying. Gotcha. I don't think we disagree that much either. Here's a thought. What if we saw some aspects of spiritual warfare as a SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE? When you mentioned spiritual warfare being more "mundane", I couldn't help thinking about Brother Lawrence and his take to practicing God's presence. Some would argue that operating in spiritual disciple unto spiritual renewal and transformation IS spiritual warfare in some real sense. I would agree with this...but what I'm saying is this: just like there is progression and evolution in use of the spiritual disciplines, could it be the same way with certain activities of active spiritual warfare? Like prayer and fasting for the sake of spiritual discernment. Things like that. Just like spiritual disciplines, spiritual warfare is the formation of a LIFESTYLE, not just some protective magical shibboleths.
This is not to say that there are not a lot of WAY OUT deliverance and exorcism ministries out there...or even unhelpful "4 easy step" theologies about spiritual warfare. There are. What this is to say is that I can see the possibility of a theology and life of spiritual warfare based upon one's identity in Christ that is neither presumptuous nor paranoid. Having healthy, REALISTIC, expectation.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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