 |
| 
clueless
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 10/12/2004 5:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'm struggling with the tension between having faith (which seems to be important) and (at the same time) living in the reality of the complexity of creation. I'm hoping someone can help me understand how we can sustain faith (and even grow in our faith) while all the variables are swirling around the cosmos.
Keeping with the warfare perspective, I could see someone answering the following verses like so:
Mt 6:30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Answer: ME of little faith? What about all the homeless, naked and starving people I SEE? Doesn't God so want to clothe them - forget the grass of the field.
Mt 8:26 He said to them, "Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm.
Answer: WHY? Well, because so many people die in storms and there is a big storm coming Jesus. That's why.
Mt 14:31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Answer: Again, I doubted because storms kill.
Mt 16:8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread?
Answer: Because people are starving. No grocery stores for miles Jesus.
1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
Answer: hmmm.
2Thes. 3:3But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
Answer: Ultimately?
Mt 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Answer: Does this mean that ifthey didn't have faith, this wouldn't have happened. Also, what about all the children with great faith (childlike faith) who have polio etc. and are not healed - even today.
Mt 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Answer: Well, what if (considering all the variables) I have little faith. I guess little will be done for me.
Mt 15:28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
Answer: again, how do we develop "great" faith - faith good enough to receive or expect healing.
Mt 17:20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, `Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Answer: Well, why do YOU think my faith is so little? This complex world you created seems to be saying the opposite of what you say. I know many who have little faith and they haven't moved mountains yet. And, why do you seem to note great faith when mustard faith is all that's needed. Please make up your mind.
Ro 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Answer: what?
1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Answer: Well, ok, but if God is so Power-full...
2Co 10:15 not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men's labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, within our sphere, enlarged even more by you,
Answer: Again, my mustard seed faith will grow bigger - surely not through viewing results of prayer in the world, right?
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
Answer: I guess we have much endurance then.
Jas 2:1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.
Answer: Here's the problem, Jesus notes those with great faith and seems to have an issue with those with little faith. Growing our faith is a good thing. Then again, those with mustard seed faith can move mountains. How can I avoid thinking about my personal measure of faith if I don't see much in terms of results in this complex world system?
Sorry. I should apologize for going on and on. The process of this search on faith and faithfulness has been helpful. I'm pretty sure the faithfulness of God referred to in scripture has more to do with ultimate faithfulness and faithfulness in His character than faithfulness in protecting us or answering prayer during our temporal existence on earth. But it is confusing. If it helps anyone, I'm just as confused on how so many believers (including myself) experience God as faithFUL as much as we do. Somehow in our relationship with God we must stumble upon the formula that brackets the complex variables long enough to taste and see that the Lord is good.
Also, I was particularly surprised that our response of faithfulness to God was such a big deal. One would think God would make a world where it would be easier to be faithful - maybe a little less complex. And it would help if He appeared a little more faithful to us from day to day.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 10/12/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by clueless
I'm struggling with the tension between having faith (which seems to be important) and (at the same time) living in the reality of the complexity of creation. I'm hoping someone can help me understand how we can sustain faith (and even grow in our faith) while all the variables are swirling around the cosmos.
I personally think you bring out some valid points. I only hope your intentions were valid and not meant to belittle 
Nonetheless, I think they should be addressed. While I have embraced the OV concept and many aspects of the WWV, I personally do not agree with everything that could be implied within this view, especially some of the satire that you present. I hope that others here who are die-hard OVers can also clarify some things.
I see it this way: though God has by covenant agreement given man and angels free-will, and does not revoke this, He is still OMNIPOTENT and is capable of doing ANYTHING! I personally believe (and all my beliefs are based on my understanding of SCRIPTURE rather than just a philopsophical assessment) that the majority of the warfare is centered around faith and the battle against unbelief. God will act upon a person's faith (Heb. 11:6) and through that faith accomplish many exploits (John 14:12; Mark 9:23). On the other hand, Satan knows that it is FAITH tha enables us to overcome him (Eph. 6:10-13) and that unbelief will limit the power of God in our lives (Mark 6:5, 6). Thus, a majority of this war is a faith war.
One of the biggest things that I have taken from Dr. Boyd's WWV is the fact that often believers must learn to pray in UNITY instead of trying to be lone star faith heroes. More could be acconmplished if the church came together as one.
The other thing is being careful not to beat up on people for lack of faith if the thing God promised has not yet happened for them. On that note though, those who embrace the OV must also be careful not to go to the opposite extreme in neglecting to acknowledge that many lack of answers to prayer are "faith failures." We have to learn to balance both extremes.
Basically I accept God's Word and His promises as being literally true and relevent, and that believing Him is indeed required if we are to obtain these promises. But I also recognize that there is a BATTLE. Nothing that God has promised will come easy and the devil is there to ensure that it won't. Part of the warfare is taking from the devil what god has promised as is demonstrated in the book of Joshua.
God is indeed faithful. I know this to be a fact, not just from Scripture, but also from personal experience. However, God is not one to barge in on us. He expects us to invite Him in (Rev. 3:20). He will keep His Word, but He never said that we would have an easy time receiving what God says that we can have.
That is how I see the Warfare World View. I could explain it much further but then I woulod be writing a book.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/12/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | clueless,
To start off I must warn you that I do not hold to the open theist view.
After reading your post and struggling with these issues in the past myself, I hope that I can give you some encouragement. After my post, I am sure you will then get others from a different perspective.
First, I believe that faith is a fruit of the spirit, given to us by measure from God (Rom 12:3b). One cannot have true saving faith unless they are a new creation in Christ Jesus. The righteousness of God is manifested through Jesus Christ's faith (Rom. 3:22) not our own.
I believe that our experiences during this life have a purpose. Eccl. 1:13 states that God has given mankind this experience of evil to humble them with. Paul states that "affliction is producing endurance, yet endurance testedness, yet testedness expectation" (Rom. 5:3, 4). The expectation is towards future glories which do not even come close to our experience in this current life (Rom. 8:18). James encouraged the Israelites of the dispersion by stating "Happy is the man who is enduring trial, for, becoming qualified, he will be obtaining the wreath of life, which He promises to those loving Him" (James 1:12). God is faithful and will not leave you to be tried above what you are able, but together with the trial, will make the sequel, to enable you to undergo it (1 Cor. 10:13). My point is, unlike many of those on this website, I believe that all is from God and everything has a purpose towards God's final goal. When you are enduring a trial that is testing your faith, and your feel that you are at your weakest point of faith, know that God has already prepared a way out for you, and that He is faithful. Look at the cases of Abraham and Moses. Abraham did his best to ensure he would have a seed, by putting forth Eliezer and concieving Ishmael with Hagar. But it was not until Sarah and Abraham were beyond the age of child bearing that God fulfilled His promise (Rom. 4:19). Moses took it into his own hands and struck down the egyptian who was beating a hebrew. Not until 40 years later is Moses where God wants him to be in order to use him to lead His people. God describes king David as being "after His own heart" (Acts 13:22) and yet look at the whole Bathsheba ordeal, and the whole mess with his sons. David was not even close to being perfect and yet he was a man after God's own heart.
I do not believe that our experience during this life is just random events. Instead it is a perfectly laid out plan, designed by our Creator, to bring us to His final goal; to be All in All (1 Cor. 15:28). Even the evil experiences we endure can be placed in contrast to God's righteousness and kindness, which is our expectation towards His glory in the future.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
clueless
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 10/12/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
[quote]Originally posted by clueless
I'm struggling with the tension between having faith (which seems to be important) and (at the same time) living in the reality of the complexity of creation. I'm hoping someone can help me understand how we can sustain faith (and even grow in our faith) while all the variables are swirling around the cosmos.
I personally think you bring out some valid points. I only hope your intentions were valid and not meant to belittle
I promise my intentions were not meant to belittle. I believe in the Warfare Worldview, but I have questions. I do not believe in Calvin's theology, for sure. And I don't think the greater good defense is very helpful either.
I guess I'm looking for a way to better understand the whole "faith" concept. Satire just seemed like a helpful way to draw out the points I'm focusing on. No harm meant to anyone or anyone's ideas.
Thanks.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/12/2004 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Clueless,
We have faith that is in an eschatological context. The evils that we experience are real evils but they will ultimately disappear. Death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire as will anyone whose name that is not found in the book of life, this is the second death. It is this death and its consequences that are the most important and far reaching.
Jesus, God who became man and died on our behalf, has given us the words of God. He has come and promised us eternal life, a place in the book of life, because of His blood and His death. To demonstrate that what He promised is true, He gave us proof in predicting His own resurrection. As He was raised, so we also will be raised unto eternal life. This promise and our faith is not a blind leap, but based upon the words of God spoken in His body as a man and witnessed by other men who saw Him bodily raised. They touched his hands and side and saw the proof that the promise of eternal life is true.
If we believe this fully, we will not sin. This will ultimately happen only when we receive our glorified bodies. Until then we struggle. This "believing" and faith in the face of our sinful lusts and the evil of the world is the battle. Is God's promise that He sealed with the resurrection true or is our captivity to evil and our place in this evil world?
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/12/2004 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by clueless
I'm struggling with the tension between having faith (which seems to be important) and (at the same time) living in the reality of the complexity of creation. I'm hoping someone can help me understand how we can sustain faith (and even grow in our faith) while all the variables are swirling around the cosmos.
To my mind, Open Theism greatly ENHANCES my realization of the DESPERATE need for faith in an uncertain world. If I subscribed to the blueprint worldview, it seems I would not even NEED faith; fatalism or resignation would be the main thing if the blueprint worldview were true.
quote:
Keeping with the warfare perspective, I could see someone answering the following verses like so:
Mt 6:30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Answer: ME of little faith? What about all the homeless, naked and starving people I SEE? Doesn't God so want to clothe them - forget the grass of the field.
Mt 8:26 He said to them, "Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm.
Answer: WHY? Well, because so many people die in storms and there is a big storm coming Jesus. That's why.
Mt 14:31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Answer: Again, I doubted because storms kill.
Mt 16:8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread?
Answer: Because people are starving. No grocery stores for miles Jesus.
I think the reason Jesus rebuked his followers in the above instances is simple--they SHOULD HAVE KNOWN they were safe when they were with Him, if they really believed He was the Messiah.
quote:
1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
Answer: hmmm.
Sounds to me like you're not having a problem with faith in the Open View but rather with faith in the revealed word of God.
quote:
2Thes. 3:3But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
Answer: Ultimately?
Yes. Even the early Christian martyrs who were fed to the lions had faith that ultimately their lives were in God's hands; Jesus said, "Fear not him that is able to destroy the body, but fear Him who is able to destroy both body and SOUL in hell."
quote:
Mt 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Answer: Does this mean that ifthey didn't have faith, this wouldn't have happened.
In several places in the Gospels, we find Christ saying essentially, "According to your FAITH be it unto you." (I think it would perhaps be helpful to you for you to define what you mean by "faith." Is it, as the kindergartener said, "Believing something you KNOW isn't true", or is it "Yielding up of the personality to the perceived revelation of God"?
quote:
Also, what about all the children with great faith (childlike faith) who have polio etc. and are not healed - even today.
This fact is indeed somewhat of a mystery, but I don't think it is inconsistent with the WWV for their to be suffering in this age.
quote:
Mt 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Answer: Well, what if (considering all the variables) I have little faith. I guess little will be done for me.
I think that would be correct, yes.
Romans 1 reveals that everyone has enough knowledge of God to know that He exists and that they should serve Him, but they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." I think a big part of the problem you bring up is due to the layer upon layer of self-imposed suppression of the truth that many must overcome, a mountain of unbelief that has been literally ingrained in us since childhood (when most of us found it quite easy to believe, and an age of which Jesus said, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven."
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Reader
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/19/2005 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | | |
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
The wrath of God is also a truth that Jesus spoke about and will "demonstrate" upon His next appearance. The Father has extended His love to us in the gospel of His Son. He will subject all who refuse to repent and believe in Him to His wrath through His Son as well. He is the only one that is found worthy to open the seals of judgment and wrath. And He will do this. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Viator
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 3/21/2005 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | | I have asked many of the same questions about faith over the 29 years of my Walking in Jesus. The place I always come back to is the God is faithful. He has gifted me with faith through his Holy Spirit. I have the privilege of exercising this faith moment by moment. I don't like the idea that I have asked God to do certain things that have (to my eye) gone undone. Yet, I am satisfied in my spirit that He is in control and that He will continue to work all things together for my good. So many of my early questions about scripture, miracles, free will, and the like continue to slip away. I find that Jesus, as introduced in the scriptures (Old and New), and as experienced through his Holy Spirit, quiets my doubts and satisfies all my longings. I am grateful to God that I have not been called upon to offer up a systematic theology that will provide answers for the many, many questions that exisit in relation to God, the world, and me. Like the Apostle Paul the idea of preaching Christ Jesus, and him crucified and resurrected is sufficient for me. I still enjoy knocking around with theological, philosophical debate. But only Jesus satisfies.
Joy to you, | | Back to Top | | |
|
Reader
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/21/2005 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/24/2005 2:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm...I'd like to hop on this.
Before I start, I want to LIMIT this in a very important way. I'm not talking about having faith in God's character or loving intentionality. I'm not talking about having faith for God's overall victory in the end.
What I AM specifically talking about having faith in God's ability to operate efficaciously in the world according to a faithful person's prayer. I'm also talking about one's faith in one's authority in God to efficaciously combat spiritually evil occurances in the world. This distinction is VERY imporant.
Here's my take: If one truly believes in the warfare worldview and all of it's creational complexity, I positively, absolutely don't see how ANYONE, I mean ANYONE, could have unshakable faith of the type I am described above without having some type of divine "inside track" to know that all conditions were ripe for God to operate. When someone is truly committed to the warfare worldview, one has to admit that ardent prayer can be rendered INEFFECTUAL for bringing about a cause that even GOD GODSELF may want to affect. Sure, God is just going by God's own rules when this is occuring, but the practical outcome is still the same.
If you've been here any length of time, you know that Doc and I have been round and round about this. There is simply NO WAY a person could have UNSHAKABLE faith in God's providential operation without that person that person having some way of knowing that all conditions were ripe for God to act. Remember, one of the implications of the warfare worldview, is that it is possible for God to set up a situation GENUINELY BELIEVING that X will obtain, but because of the emergence of certain creational factors, X can no longer obtain. So, it's actually possible for God to say..."Meph, I'm going to provide X for you in 2 days."...and due to circumstances beyond God's control (with God operating under his covenantal 'relative non-interference" thing), God ends up NOT being able to provide X...even as I'm being as faithful as I can believing God for X.
All of this is METAPHYSICALLY allowed by the worldview. Not only that, but given some testimonies, one could actualy argue that things do HAPPEN this way. (See Doc's story about that missionary woman's messed up marriage in "God of the Possible"...OR John Eldridge's story about how he believed God for the healing of his son's dysfunctional heart in "Waking the Dead"
Given all this, I don't see how ANYONE can say anything other than this...
"Lord, I do believe. HELP ME overcome my unbelief."
We can say that God CAN do something...but that is light-years away from having unshakable faith that God WILL do something. And it seems to me that often...that LATTER faith, is what is people seem to laud. See this whole dilemma is a LOT EASIER for people who just believe that God can do WHATEVER he wants, as far as answering prayer. Because that one COULD have unshakable faith in God's ability to efficaciously operate in the world. If things didn't pan out, they could always just say that they misheard God or that God may have changed his mind. But when one consistently believes in the warfare worldview, things are definitely blown off course, on that score.
Actually, it feels to me like a catch-22. You won't get anywhere if you DON'T have unshakable faith in God. But at the same time, you have every reason in the world to DOUBT that God's power can be CERTAINLY effacious in your situation. I mean, heck. If an angel can be delayed for over 2 weeks after Daniel prayed for something, why in the WORLD believe that I'm going to get an instant miracle or deliverance.
We've discussed this before. It would seem like to me that faith in the efficacy of God's providential ability in response to prayer would pretty much be like the faith we have in seat belts when we use them. We have reason to believe that seat belts do save lives when used properly...but we ALSO know that seat belts aren't guaranteed to save one's life or prevent grave injury if one gets into an accident. In other words, we believe that seat belts can save us great harm if the conditions of the accident ALLOW it to do so.. Because of all this, using the seat belt is a great precaution.
So it is with petitionary prayer. We have reason to believe (biblical and experiential) that prayer does do something. We have seen God be faithful to God's promises both in the Bible and in our own lives. HOWEVER, given that we believe in the warfare worldview...and take very seriously that Satan is the god of this world...we have to also believe that sometimes God's efficacy just isn't ENOUGH against a certain configuration of creational factors, including demonic activity, free willed responses of humans, chance, etc. Sometimes the anti-Kingdom "accident conditions" place things outside of God's ability to do anything...even in spite of our faith.
Trust me, I KNOW this is a hard thing to face. But it is one that must be faced nonetheless if we are going to keep the explanatory power of the open/warfare worldview. The ONLY things that we can have UNWAVERING FAITH in are...
1) God's presence with us
2) God's loving intentions towards us.
3) God's ultimate victory.
But not much else. It's not to say that we can't believe God is VERY powerful. But it is to say that people who believe in the warfare worldview, can still say...with integrity..."Whew, God. It looks like we got lucky!"
Thoughts?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/24/2005 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Mephi. Wow. we agree. (someone write that down please )
I'm curious about two things 1) besides the seat belt thing, how does Doc reply to this? Gimme his best one. (surely he experiences God as faithful) 2) In the quote below,, are you suggesting you think it's impossible to attain that "inside track" with God?
Mephi: If one truly believes in the warfare worldview and all of it's creational complexity, I positively, absolutely don't see how ANYONE, I mean ANYONE, could have unshakable faith of the type I am described above without having some type of divine "inside track" to know that all conditions were ripe for God to operate.
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior
wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved
to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message
and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a
demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not
rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/24/2005 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Confession Time.
Sometimes...just sometimes...I really wish I could go back to my old life of faith. The one I had when I first got started in this whole thing. I was ignorant on a lot of stuff to the Nth degree to be sure. Biblicist, fundamentalist, all that. (I look back at some of my pre-seminary bible teachings and I cringe...) But I was just crazy enough to believe God for anything. I thought God was COMPLETELY in control of everything...and was pretty much a theological determinist to the hilt. God knew the future exhaustively...and there was nothing that God couldn't do. If bad things happened, it's because God, in some way, WANTED it to happen for some reason. Or it was MY fault. There was such SECURITY in that. Really. To believe that the devil was still GOD'S devil. Even though it would be existentially wrenching at times, it DID gave one a sense of purpose. How? Because even though I didn't understand the formal terminology, my beliefs meant that gratuitous evil DIDN'T exist! I could hold, like Augustine, that SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY all that bull#@#$ of the world had some higher purpose. And even though, it hurt sometime, it gave me some assurance that I could trust God to protect me if he said he would...and take care of me if He said he would.
All that's gone now.
Nowadays, I pray sincerely like this for petitionary prayer...
God, if it's your will...and if you can do it...please do X.
My petitionary prayers are like seat belts for me. I hope for the best with them...but I don't have unshakable faith in them anymore. Something truly does feel lost, to be honest. But what is left for me? I cannot just turn my mind off to what I believe about reality, what I've learned theologically and philosophically. Pandora's Box has been opened and there's no closing it.
And I'm going to say something very personal right now. Lots of times, I WISH I could be a simple saint again. I want to feel that SURETY in things again. I wish I weren't so darned into CONSISTENCY and COHERENCE! My parents don't know hardly a DAMN about theology in a formal sense. They are simple believers. Their theologies are seriously inconsistent, and often terribly incoherent. But they have unfettered belief in God's ability to efficaciously answer prayer and in God's absolute control that I haven't experienced in some time now. Honestly, I feel a significant bit of ANGER when I hear open view theists who supposedly espouse the worldview talk to me about the friggin "mystery in the tornado" crud, while at the SAME TIME talk to me about having single-minded faith in God for stuff in this world. The whole "believe and not doubt" thing. And then looking at me like I'M the misguided one in NOT having that type of faith. Grrr...
Sigh...anyways...
Just my little confession. I suppose it's true. You CAN'T ever go home again. Oh well...
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/24/2005 2:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
I'm curious about two things 1) besides the seat belt thing, how does Doc reply to this? Gimme his best one. (surely he experiences God as faithful) 2) In the quote below,, are you suggesting you think it's impossible to attain that "inside track" with God?
1) Doc has NO answer to resolve the situation. That's part of my deep frustration with his whole project. When I first started talking to him about all this in 2000, THIS was one of my main problems. Open view theism, at it's core, would DEMOLISH a person's faith like the one I had, with respect to God being able to efficaciously fulfill his own promises of temporal deliverance. It's now 2005...and we've been discussing it all these years. And there IS no answer. Truly, there is no answer. This is part of the cost of the OVERALL effectiveness of the theodicy itself. To take about my problem would be to take out the "mystery in the tornado" effectiveness. (Doc's words) So there we are.
2) Hey, it may be possible...but I highly doubt it ever occurs. But I think that ONLY person who had this on a consistent basis was Jesus. And think about it...how could a person GET this type of inside track UNLESS they were God? Remember, just because God tells you that he can do something doesn't NECESSARILY mean that it will be the case an hour from now.
We've got to take the good with the bad when it comes to open view theism.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 3/25/2005 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | |
Meph said...
...we have to also believe that sometimes God's efficacy just isn't ENOUGH against a certain configuration of creational factors, including demonic activity, free willed responses of humans, chance, etc.
Meph, how does Doc distinguish between non-interference with free-will and, say, locking up angels in "prison?" Doesn't he believe in the latter? And if so, doesn't THAT kind of over-powering of one's will give God all the latitude He needs to prevail providentially?
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/25/2005 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
Indeed, I DO see the issue. That's why I have argued on this forum many times for the fact that there really ARE doxological purposes of God that TRUMP any purely sentimental interests of humans. I think Job makes that clear. God basically admits that He was INCITED by Satan to allow the evils to happen to Job. But for what end? His own glory is the only answer I can come up with. But God is benevolent in the sense that He, out of His compassion, made Job's end greater than his beginning as James point out. How the OV plays a role here is this: If God INTENDED the fall of Satan and the INCITING ALSO, the whole view of benevolence looks VERY different. What do you think?
If I were to hold to a literal Adamic couple situation, the only way that I could do it is something like that. That God knew the some type of "fall" was inevitable, given the scope of his Creation, and so, decided to hasten it a little, for God's own purposes. All the while knowing that the Second Adam (Christ) would make things better than the first state anyway. Things in the Garden were "very good", but NOT perfect. Perfection comes when we are all like Christ. But this makes the whole Fall thing a "set-up" and some people have a BIG problem with that idea. As such they retreat to the old "implausible possibility" idea. Which I find MORE implausible than saying God planned this before the Garden was created.
The most plausible thing I see at this point is to say that an angelic entity fell into sin against God...and that human beings (and all of Creation) have always suffered under the ramifications of that fall. No historical Adamic couple as viceroys, who, from their mistake, re-empowered Satan. Human beings add their OWN DIMENSION of falleness to the mix, but they DON'T open some type of Pandora's Box that...whoosh...just let's all the evil back out again.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 3/25/2005 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Good first post Mephi. On the mark. I’m with ya, and feel ya too.
A few comments:
Mephi: It's not to say that we can't believe God is VERY powerful. But it is to say that people who believe in the warfare worldview, can still say...with integrity..."Whew, God. It looks like we got lucky!"
Tom: It kinda depends on how one defines “luck.” But as I do the warfare worldview in my head, I don’t see why we have to say we sometimes simply get “lucky.” In the end, when God gets what he wants (when someone is healed, delivered, saved, guided, whatever), its being true that God might not have gotten what he wanted doesn’t have to mean God got lucky in getting what he wanted. It’s still the case that it happened because of God’s (and our) intentional involvement, even if that involvement didn’t necessitate, or determine, the outcome. Such involvement is still a necessary condition for the outcome. And inasmuch as that condition involved “intentional” actions on God’s and our part, I wouldn’t say it ever was just a matter of luck that we (or God) get what we want. On the contrary, we get what we want because we prayed, obeyed, worked, opposed evil, or whatever.
I'm not saying that it's never true, for example, that we would have received what we prayed for even had we not prayed for it and that in such instances our prayers didn't effect THAT particular outcome. But this doesn't amount to our being lucky. For example, my youngest, Daniel, falls off a pier into the water and is drowning. He cries, "Dad! Dad! Save me!" I'm in the water before he even cries and I save him. Had he not cried I would have saved him. So in this instance his petition isn't what moved me to action. I suspect that some of our answers to prayer are rather like this. But this doesn't amount to luck. Of course, there are some circumstances I can imagine my son getting himself into where I will see his peril, want to save him, but be unable to do anything without his asking for help (like helping him in the event his marriage is in trouble, or in the event he's a alchoholic or addict). It all depends on the variables. But I don't see that either situation boils "maximizing good in the world" down to sheer luck.
Mephi: Nowadays, I pray sincerely like this for petitionary prayer...God, if it's your will...and if you can do it...please do X. My petitionary prayers are like seat belts for me. I hope for the best with them...but I don't have unshakable faith in them anymore. Something truly does feel lost, to be honest. But what is left for me? I cannot just turn my mind off to what I believe about reality, what I've learned theologically and philosophically. Pandora's Box has been opened and there's no closing it.
Tom: I totally feel ya here bro. Totally. But I honestly think we can adopt a more intentional, eh, proactive, posture. In other words, whether the seat belt helps or not only depends in PART on whether or not we wear it. It also depends on how we drive, and that’s a far more complicated matter than just clipping ourselves in behind the seat belt. In other words, let’s pray in such a way that actually demonstrates that what we say when we pray is part of what determines whether or not God “can do it.” See, your prayer appears to suggest that you don't think the actual request you make is part of what determines what is possible and not possible for God in a given situation. Looks to me like you go into praying already believing that the variables have determined whether or not God can or can't. In that case, why pray? I'm thinking prayer is far more crucial and integral than we think, even if it doesn't always produce the desired outcome.
So when I pray for somebody nowadays, I pray something like this:
“Father, I know you’re present in X’s life and that you have great purposes for her. I just want to line up with those purposes, Lord, and ask you to bring all the influence possible to bear in her life to get through to her, communicate your love to her, and convince her to turn her life over to you. Orchestrate the events of her life to direct her toward you. Don't let her sleep at night. Continue to bring the right people across her path. Speak to her, etc., (plus some tongues of course!)....”
I don’t think open theists CAN’T ask God to orchestrate events. God obviously CAN do this, even if he doesn’t always do so in quite the way he desires. My point is, our asking him to do it is a big part of what determines whether or not he does so and not an incidental part we offer up on the assumption that whether or not he will is already a determined reality. When I read the prayers of the Bible (Do they count?), I see a more robust positive posture being adopted. And even when the specific request we make in faith and desperation doesn't come about, that doesn't mean our praying didn't play some important role, didn't release power that played some role in events. God only knows. We only have to trust.
Mephi: Now, that we are talking about this...it REALLY gets me that some people truly don't see the ambiguity in this whole thing. Doc was FORCED to admit the possibility that the whole Zosia thing could indeed have been an episode of God "sacrificing the rook for the queen" in the larger scheme. A variation of the greater good argument. Think about what this means. Within open view theism, God's providential activity CAN LOOK LIKE a little German girl getting her eyes plucked out. This being the case, how could ANYONE, again, ANYONE presume to say that specific events of evil were UNDOUBTEDLY not of God in that God wasn't involved. They can't.
Tom: We disagreed about this on the Carlie thread, but I’m still of the opinion that the greater the evil, the less likely it is that God had anything compatibilistic to do with it. I can make room for Carlie and other events involving individuals like that. I can’t make room for the Holocaust in its entirety, as an “event,” being God sacrificing a pawn for a greater good. At some point there’s a threshold, a line, where I think we CAN and OUGHT to say with confidence, “God had nothing to do with this. His only involvment was to oppose it given the variables at the time.”
Getting back to clueless’s original post:
Clueless: I'm struggling with the tension between having faith (which seems to be important) and (at the same time) living in the reality of the complexity of creation. I'm hoping someone can help me understand how we can sustain faith (and even grow in our faith) while all the variables are swirling around the cosmos.
Tom: Faith is trust. Trust is placed in a person of a particular character and not in outcomes per se. I trust God to do all he can given the situation, to maximize good in the world and minimize evil, yes. And the reason I believe he does so is NOT a particular track record of predictable outcomes (though even that is a point in my favor in spite of it's not guaranteeing outcomes all the time), but rather the Cross. That’s it. Jesus said it: “If you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.” Jesus hanging on a Cross is what God is like. In effect, Jesus said, “I’m the final authoritative word on God. I have the right to define what God is like and who God is.” I take this seriously, which means Jesus takes precedence over my circumstances, over the mystery of the variables, over the complexities, over unanswered prayer or any suffering, including Zosia’s, in establishing for me what sort of God God is. My point, clueless, is that it’s wrong to base our sense of trust in our figuring out the complexity. We won’t figure it out. Let’s not try. The Cross is the definitive word, the definitive theodicy. That’s how much God loves and cares for us and that’s how much he’s prepared to do to take responsibility for his creation.
See Mephi, even though we can't have the simple explanations of the world we used to have, we CAN still have the same simple trust. And that's what made those earlier days so free and fun. Given the absolute promises you mentioned (God’s presence, guidance, love, and eternity with him--Rom. 8) what’s not to trust?
This is why I’m open on the question of natural evil, the genre of Gen. 1-3, evolution, and all the other stuff. That all doesn’t impact my ultimate sense of trust (which is what theodicy is all about, right?).
Naive? If it is, then so be it. It's about the Cross. Take it to the bank!
Tom Post Edited (TGB) : 3/25/2005 2:06:28 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/25/2005 8:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
It kinda depends on how one defines “luck.” But as I do the warfare worldview in my head, I don’t see why we have to say we sometimes simply get “lucky.” In the end, when God gets what he wants (when someone is healed, delivered, saved, guided, whatever), its being true that God might not have gotten what he wanted doesn’t have to mean God got lucky in getting what he wanted. It’s still the case that it happened because of God’s (and our) intentional involvement, even if that involvement didn’t necessitate, or determine, the outcome. Such involvement is still a necessary condition for the outcome. And inasmuch as that condition involved “intentional” actions on God’s and our part, I wouldn’t say it ever was just a matter of luck that we (or God) get what we want. On the contrary, we get what we want because we prayed, obeyed, worked, opposed evil, or whatever.
What I meant by "Looks like we got lucky" is that God and I, in our synergistic working through prayer and divine activity were fortunate enough that opposing forces were NOT ENOUGH to circumvent what we were trying to accomplish. As you say, to the extent that our synergistic work is involved, luck is not. But to the extent that it's NOT involved, luck is involved. God's activity and our prayer are necessary, but not sufficient conditions for when our petitionary prayers get answered. Just like our driving, and wearing seat belts are necessary, but not sufficient, conditions for us not getting hurt in serious accidents. We have to take into account the other people driving, the shape of the road, etc.
So, when I'm saying that God and I get "lucky" when things I pray for occur, I'm saying that God and I would be in some way FORTUNATE that creational factors were such that our combined efforts were able to bring about what we wished.
Again, man, think about the Daniel thing.
********************************
Tom:
I totally feel ya here bro. Totally. But I honestly think we can adopt a more intentional, eh, proactive, posture. In other words, whether the seat belt helps or not only depends in PART on whether or not we wear it. It also depends on how we drive, and that’s a far more complicated matter than just clipping ourselves in behind the seat belt. In other words, let’s pray in such a way that actually demonstrates that what we say when we pray is part of what determines whether or not God “can do it.” See, your prayer appears to suggest that you don't think the actual request you make is part of what determines what is possible and not possible for God in a given situation. Looks to me like you go into praying already believing that the variables have determined whether or not God can or can't. In that case, why pray? I'm thinking prayer is far more crucial and integral than we think, even if it doesn't always produce the desired outcome.
Hey, I'm assuming this. I never said that our prayers didn't make way for things to happen. That's part and parcel of the "say-so" that we have. The point is that it is possible that the configuration of creational factors can be such that the synergistic work between God's activity and our prayers is NOT SUFFICIENT to alter things to the point of our joint efforts being effectual for that which WE hoped.
You have to admit that even though our prayer either helps to open or close certain possibilities for God...that creational factors working AGAINST this can STILL overcome the synergistic work of the praying people and God. That's the rub.
**************
Tom:
Faith is trust. Trust is placed in a person of a particular character and not in outcomes per se. I trust God to do all he can given the situation, to maximize good in the world and minimize evil, yes. And the reason I believe he does so is NOT a particular track record of predictable outcomes (though even that is a point in my favor in spite of it's not guaranteeing outcomes all the time), but rather the Cross. That’s it. Jesus said it: “If you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.” Jesus hanging on a Cross is what God is like. In effect, Jesus said, “I’m the final authoritative word on God. I have the right to define what God is like and who God is.” I take this seriously, which means Jesus takes precedence over my circumstances, over the mystery of the variables, over the complexities, over unanswered prayer or any suffering, including Zosia’s, in establishing for me what sort of God God is. My point, clueless, is that it’s wrong to base our sense of trust in our figuring out the complexity. We won’t figure it out. Let’s not try. The Cross is the definitive word, the definitive theodicy. That’s how much God loves and cares for us and that’s how much he’s prepared to do to take responsibility for his creation.
All that's cool and everything, Tom. But there's still something. Like I said before, the issue is NOT about having faith in God's intentionality towards us. Nor is the issue about how hard God works on the behalf of maximizing the good. The issue is about trusting God's EFFECTUAL POWER to accomplish what God wants to accomplish and to deliver God's people, in line with faithful prayer.
This is where we keep getting told to "believe and not doubt"!
But how can we do that??
I understand that, to you, that MAIN thing that matters to you is that you KNOW that God is good, that he cares about you, and that God is always working to maximize the good and minimize the evil. And that's great. But when you get to the nitty-gritty of God leading you into some seriously dangerous territory that he WILL deliver you from, it may be cold comfort just knowing that if God CAN'T pull it off, at least he gave it all he could give it. Just maybe.
And I'm not even saying that a person should disobey God because of this. NO WAY! I'm just saying that this is something we'd have to know going in...and we shouldn't feel ashamed of ourselves if we don't have UNSHAKABLE faith that God CAN do what he thinks he can.
************************
Tom:
1) Pray like your answer depended upon your praying,
2) Obey like you make a difference,
3) Act/work like your goals depended upon it,
I'm not talking about pretending that this dependance was real. I'm talking about praying, obeying, and acting on the belief that it IS real.
4) Then if things don't work out...
Trust the one hanging on the Cross.
I definitely see that you are feeling my pain, and I respect your position. And I would agree with it. I just hope that people could understand a person having healthy EXPECTATION in God's providential ability combined with prayer...rather than knock-down-drag-out UNSHAKABLE FAITH that things will work out. There's just too much ambiguity for that.
I'd say do all of the things you suggest because, all things considered, it's better than doing nothing. NOT praying would be like NOT putting one's seat belt on just because it won't ENSURE one's safety in all cases. Ludicrous thought. I say, let's do what we can, work with God synergistically...and hope for the best. I don't see what else we CAN do.
PS: Check out the "Meph Has an Important Question" thread. I got one last thing for ya on the universalism thing.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 3/25/2005 7:36:39 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/26/2005 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | I think there are far more things God CAN do in the WWV then what He can't do. The inability of God to bring about His efficacious will is not emphasized in scripture; that God is able to do all things is emphasized (the qualifying of "all" being a given for the conversation).
It is mostly in the arena of freedom where we see God's limitations. I can pray all day long that so-and-so get saved, but ultimately I'm fighting for something that is clearly not a sure thing, if even a hopeful thing. All I can do is pray.
Considering Job...from God's perspective (not someone's prayer for Job that we know of), God seems pretty confident that Job will hold on through the ordeal. Was Job completely solidified to God? Maybe. Even if He wasn't, though, He must have had enough confidence that Job was tough enough for the trial. Suppose, however, that Job failed and walked away from God? We are, once again, in the arena of where God may or may not be able to "pull it off." We should expect this.
Daniel...here's the passage in question:
12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia (ESV).
Note that nothing here implies that had Daniel not prayed the tweny-one days that the angel wouldn't have made it. It simply states that there was warfare going on upon the catalyst of Daniel's prayer. The implication is only that Daniel instigated war, but not that the war wasn't ultimately won, whether Daniel continued in his prayer or not. We are not told that Daniel "prayed through" or anything like that.
Finally, Jesus was quite adament that God is quite able to do what we ask (again, given the qualifications). If I need financial help for the bills, God is quite able to provide. If I need clothes, food and shelter, God is quite able to provide. scripture speaks little of what God cannot do in the context of these sorts of things. What we ARE told to understand when these things are not provided is not that God could not have provided, but that it doesn't matter; be faithful to the end. This why the author of Hebrews 11 goes from great heros of faith who were delivered from tremendous trials or death to great heros of faith who were not delivered and yet not expect the reader to say, "Hey, why didn't God deliver those guys also?. How many times was Paul delivered from persecutions and provided with daily necessities? But how many MORE times could Paul have been delivered from persecutions and have been provided for with regard to daily necessities? What Paul understood was that it wasn't an issue; regardless of what Paul went through, God was providing all along. I mean, Paul goes through some tremendous ordeal and says (AFTER the trial) that God delivered him.
Whatever's going on in the unknown, where God's efficacious will is not done, should not cause us to negatively focus on this in regard to our all-around welfare. Rather, it should cause us to know that God is not only in control but IS delivering and providing THROUGH the the ordeal itself. It's the same thing mentioned in Revelation 12, I believe it is, where we are told that the saints overcame their enemy by the blood of the lamb AND by not loving their lives unto death. Dying, in this case, WAS the victory. Go figure!
Anyway, in regard to God's provision and deliverance, we have a hek of a lot more going of us than we have going against us. For me, the Open View makes for a positive, but challenging and demanding, way for victory that cannot be found in determinisim.
Starkman
Post Edited (Starkman) : 3/26/2005 9:03:41 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Reader
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
| Posted 3/26/2005 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
Thank you for this thread. I appreciate your comments and, while I come down on the other side of the issue, I think that you have gone to the heart of the matter.
1. The Warfare Worldview has a God that is limited and His actions are limited. He can only act when the actions/wills/events of others allow Him to act. Your prayer expresses this well, "God, if it's your will...and if you can do it...please do X." Thus when I cry out to God in my distress, I trust and look to a sovereign God that CAN do anything if He and He alone decides to act. If He doesn't act, I trust that His transcendance can only be consistent with His love demonstrated by His death for me. If someone's concept of God was distorted (and I know that there are OV adherents who concept of God is not extreme), it would be easy to pursue cosmological/spiritual technologies (beyond legal prayer) to adjust the obstacles thwarting God. The pagan practices of planting stakes of protection around property, wearing amulets, performing rituals and incantations of power would be especially tempting if dressed in Christian garb.
2. The other wonderful insight that you had concerning "knowing the unknowable" in order to have faith struck me as well. I believe that this is the core to much of the "modern prophetic" movement and mysticism. In essence, the knowing the unknowable (what is not explicitly revealed in writing in the scriptures concerning the spiritual economy), is simply a major part of your first point concerning "if you can do it." This gnosis informs me of whether God can do it or not and, perhaps, what I can do to enable Him to act. It is a lust for the unrevealed spiritual in order to manipulate the present tangible according to my desires. God becomes a "force" and we control and manipulate the valve to allow the force to operate. I find small comfort in this.
I have a personal experience with my family that may illustrate this. My father is a disciple of this Warfare Worldview. He travels the world to give seminars on spiritual warfare. On one visit I went on a 3 mile walk and it came up that I no longer believe in "generational curses" having power in my life as a believer. My father was genuinely concerned for me as he saw me in danger and exposure to the attacks of the enemy on my life and that of my family. He spent the entire walk attempting to convince me that there were curses upon all families due to the sins of my ancestors and that unless they were identified and "broken" they would afflict me. He shared how he had gone into battle against them for me and identified curses in our family's past that continued to afflict us. I respnded that I am no longer under the curse because Jesus became a curse for me. All that Satan had to curse me with was nailed to the cross. I may now continue to be afflicted, but it not because I am under some unknown generational curse. The response to these afflictions is not seeking "revelation" concerning the powers attacking me but crying out to our Savior that died for me and is now seated above all principalities and powers, the soveriegn one. My dad was appalled that I would not listen to his sincere concerns and fight against the curses that were seeking to destroy me. I was saddened by how this worldview has weakened his faith in the power and jurisdiction of the gospel in the lives of believers. He confesses his belief in the power of spiritual warfare and has left confessing the power of the gospel to overcome sin and evil.
| | Back to Top | | |
| 36 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:13 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|