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Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Paul, the worst of sinners, was overwhelmed by the grace of God (1 Tim 1:13, 14).

Paul got a heavenly vision and then:

Acts 26:19 "So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision"
was obedient to the heavenly vision.

What would have happened if Paul had proved disobedient to the heavenly vision?

It was Paul (inspired by the holy spirit) who wrote Phil 2:13, "... for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight."

Amen. No one who believes in OVTism needs to deny this truth. God works in us to will and to do, all glory be to Him. But the verse does not require a monergistic view of moral free agency. If I choose to yield to the Spirit of God, it is still HIM influencing, illuminating, instructing, persuading, enabling, and working in me.

Exactly. If Paul hadn't been obedient, it wouldn't have happened; which is why lock failed to answer my question.

Paul was obedient to the heavenly vision. The vision part was God's participation, the obedience part was Paul's participation.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 3:31 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Paul, the worst of sinners, was overwhelmed by the grace of God (1 Tim 1:13, 14).

Paul got a heavenly vision and then:

Acts 26:19 "So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision"
was obedient to the heavenly vision.

What would have happened if Paul had proved disobedient to the heavenly vision?

It was Paul (inspired by the holy spirit) who wrote Phil 2:13, "... for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight."

Amen. No one who believes in OVTism needs to deny this truth. God works in us to will and to do, all glory be to Him. But the verse does not require a monergistic view of moral free agency. If I choose to yield to the Spirit of God, it is still HIM influencing, illuminating, instructing, persuading, enabling, and working in me.

Exactly. If Paul hadn't been obedient, it wouldn't have happened; which is why lock failed to answer my question.

Paul was obedient to the heavenly vision. The vision part was God's participation, the obedience part was Paul's participation.

So, you are claiming that all could have been lost, if Paul had not obeyed? Then why do you worship God? You should worship Paul for his obedience becasue all would have been lost without him.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 3:38 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
So, you are claiming that all could have been lost, if Paul had not obeyed? Then why do you worship God? You should worship Paul for his obedience becasue all would have been lost without him.

No, if Paul had not obeyed the vision, he wouldn't have taken the gospel to the gentiles. Is this so hard to understand?

God could have used someone else to take the gospel to the gentiles.

You seem to jump to conclusions. Paul not being one of the evangelists would not have made it the case that "all would have been lost".

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 3:39 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock
So you are saying that Paul or the holy spirit, for that matter, did not know what they were doing when using the same Greek words in both instances?

No, I'm not saying that. I am simply saying that in Greek (as in ANY language), the meaning of a word is ALWAYS conditioned by the context in which it is used, and the very same word can have different nuances of meaning from one passage to the next. Therefore we must consult scholarly resources (Word Studies and Lexicons) to get the basic meaning of a particular word, and yet also in every case give due attention to the particular context in which it is being used. The number one rule of biblical interpretation is context. This is the most basic Bible study rule. If we do not pay attention to the context, we can come up with all sorts of meanings for the text that the inspired writers never intended us to come up with.

Both passages have the "psuchikon" man as its context. Both passages contrast the "psuchikon" with the "pneumatikon". Both speak of the inability of the "psuchikon" and the glorious provision of the "pneumatikon". There is consistency between them. I say again, God knew what He was doing when He inspired Paul to write this letter.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 3:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
So, you are claiming that all could have been lost, if Paul had not obeyed? Then why do you worship God? You should worship Paul for his obedience becasue all would have been lost without him.

No, if Paul had not obeyed the vision, he wouldn't have taken the gospel to the gentiles. Is this so hard to understand?

God could have used someone else to take the gospel to the gentiles.

You seem to jump to conclusions. Paul not being one of the evangelists would not have made it the case that "all would have been lost".

You are correct, God's purposes will be completed no matter what men decide. If God wanted it done through Paul, it would get done through Paul.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 3:52 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You are correct, God's purposes will be completed no matter what men decide. If God wanted it done through Paul, it would get done through Paul.

That's if Paul obeyed. It'd be impossible for Paul to do it if he'd didn't do it, right? Big Smile

that would be a contradiction

This is why Paul said:
Acts 26:19 "So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision"

"Arrest the usual suspects."

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/14/2004 5:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

Q= Could the Terrorists Have Chosen Otherwise?

A= Yes. And no. And yes.

My understanding of Eastern Orthodoxy is that it agrees with Scripture that evil deeds are without excuse, and that mankind indeed has power to choose the contrary (free will). The article you linked elsewhere by Schmemann affirms the fallenness of the world with respect to evil; which is of course true, but it does not actually address the question whether such criminals are indeed personally responsible for their actions. I think it is a misapplication of Schmemann's usage to the refer it to terrorist acts. If he indeed meant address whether or not criminals had the power to refrain from their crimes in saying "God ordains evil," then it would necessarily follow that he is thereby openly excusing evil, rather than confronting it and overcoming it with good, as Scripture enjoins.

http://revivaltheology.net

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You are correct, God's purposes will be completed no matter what men decide. If God wanted it done through Paul, it would get done through Paul.

That's if Paul obeyed. It'd be impossible for Paul to do it if he'd didn't do it, right?

that would be a contradiction

This is why Paul said:
Acts 26:19 "So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision"

You may not agree that God has foreknowledge. God chose Paul knowing that he would obey.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You may not agree that God has foreknowledge. God chose Paul knowing that he would obey.

And He chose Saul to be king because He knew Saul would disobey?

And He planted a vineyard and expected good grapes because He knew He would get bad grapes?

The impetus for Paul obeying was the vision God gave.
The impetus for God giving the vision is that He saw Paul obeying.

see a problem with this?

What if God had seen Paul disobeying the vision God gave Paul?
Would He have not given the vision that He saw Paul not obeying? Wouldn't Paul then not be disobeying a vision God didn't give him?

"Arrest the usual suspects."

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/14/2004 9:14 AM (GMT -6)

1 Sam. 15:10 The word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11“I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.”

1 Sam. 15:35 Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel. NRSV

How anyone (even God) can express sorrow and regret over how things turned out, and YET have known precisely how things would turn out from all eternity is not clear at all.

http://revivaltheology.net

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

1 Sam. 15:10 The word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11“I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.”

1 Sam. 15:35 Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel. NRSV

How anyone (even God) can express sorrow and regret over how things turned out, and YET have known precisely how things would turn out from all eternity is not clear at all.

I (and others) see these as a figure of speeach (condescension). It helps explain that there is a change in God's plan and purposes. It does not have to imply that God did not know Saul would be disobedient and that a change would be necessary.

Why would God declare to that the sceptor would not depart from Judah (Gen. 49:8) and yet have Saul (a Benjamanite)be king?

Because the people asked for a king instead of being ruled by God. There is a pattern there. We see the failure of man first, and then we see the awesome provision of God. This pattern is found throughout the bible.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/14/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

1 Sam. 15:10 The word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11“I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.”

1 Sam. 15:35 Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel. NRSV

How anyone (even God) can express sorrow and regret over how things turned out, and YET have known precisely how things would turn out from all eternity is not clear at all.

I (and others) see these as a figure of speeach (condescension). It helps explain that there is a change in God's plan and purposes. It does not have to imply that God did not know Saul would be disobedient and that a change would be necessary.

I personally can't see how you can avoid the charge of calling God a liar by saying the expression is merely figurative and not literally true.

What is "figurative" about God first anointing/choosing Saul as King, and then later REJECTING Saul as King because Saul had rejected God's authority?

Even if the word, "repent/regret" (Hb., "nacham") were not in the passage, the fact would still remain that God REVERSED his earlier decision as a consequence of Saul's rebellion against the will of God.

So which is it, lock? Are you saying God was misrepresenting himself to us before or after Saul was rejected, or that in BOTH cases (saying He had chosen Saul and then saying He had rejected Saul) God was not being up front with us?

http://revivaltheology.net

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I personally can't see how you can avoid the charge of calling God a liar by saying the expression is merely figurative and not literally true.

Yeah. Saying it's a figure of speech doesn't make it opposite of what God said.

Plus, it isn't a figure of speech. There's no figure in the speech.

"I regret I made Saul king." Where is the "figure"?

Back to our merry-go-round...

How could God know Paul would obey the vision if He didn't give it to Paul first?

If He gave the vision to Paul because He knew Paul would obey it, He'd have to give the vision to Paul first, so He could watch whether Paul obeyed it or not and then it's too late to take back the vision if Paul disobeyed it.

quote:

The impetus for Paul obeying was the vision God gave.
The impetus for God giving the vision is that He saw Paul obeying.

see a problem with this?

What if God had seen Paul disobeying the vision God gave Paul?
Would He have not given the vision that He saw Paul not obeying? Wouldn't Paul then not be disobeying a vision God didn't give him?

---->God sees Paul obeying the vision --->
^ |
| V
<----So God gives Paul the vision<--------

Kind of like that.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 11:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

1 Sam. 15:10 The word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11“I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.”

1 Sam. 15:35 Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel. NRSV

How anyone (even God) can express sorrow and regret over how things turned out, and YET have known precisely how things would turn out from all eternity is not clear at all.

I (and others) see these as a figure of speeach (condescension). It helps explain that there is a change in God's plan and purposes. It does not have to imply that God did not know Saul would be disobedient and that a change would be necessary.

I personally can't see how you can avoid the charge of calling God a liar by saying the expression is merely figurative and not literally true.

What is "figurative" about God first anointing/choosing Saul as King, and then later REJECTING Saul as King because Saul had rejected God's authority?

Even if the word, "repent/regret" (Hb., "nacham") were not in the passage, the fact would still remain that God REVERSED his earlier decision as a consequence of Saul's rebellion against the will of God.

So which is it, lock? Are you saying God was misrepresenting himself to us before or after Saul was rejected, or that in BOTH cases (saying He had chosen Saul and then saying He had rejected Saul) God was not being up front with us?

JEE-

I have explained it with the pattern...

Saul was put in place due to the people's request. In scripture we see man's failure, and then God's provision.

You ignored what I posted about what is said concerning Judah. God had already declared that the scepter would not depart from Judah. Are you saying He lied about that and decided to give it to Benjamin instead? And then changed His mind again and decided to give it back to Judah? If that is the case, when will God make up His mind?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 11:48 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I personally can't see how you can avoid the charge of calling God a liar by saying the expression is merely figurative and not literally true.

Yeah. Saying it's a figure of speech doesn't make it opposite of what God said.

Plus, it isn't a figure of speech. There's no figure in the speech.

"I regret I made Saul king." Where is the "figure"?

Back to our merry-go-round...

How could God know Paul would obey the vision if He didn't give it to Paul first?

If He gave the vision to Paul because He knew Paul would obey it, He'd have to give the vision to Paul first, so He could watch whether Paul obeyed it or not and then it's too late to take back the vision if Paul disobeyed it.
quote:

The impetus for Paul obeying was the vision God gave.
The impetus for God giving the vision is that He saw Paul obeying.

see a problem with this?

What if God had seen Paul disobeying the vision God gave Paul?
Would He have not given the vision that He saw Paul not obeying? Wouldn't Paul then not be disobeying a vision God didn't give him?

---->God sees Paul obeying the vision --->
^ |
| V
<----So God gives Paul the vision<--------

Kind of like that.

Are you claiming that God does not have foreknowledge?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 11:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I personally can't see how you can avoid the charge of calling God a liar by saying the expression is merely figurative and not literally true.

Yeah. Saying it's a figure of speech doesn't make it opposite of what God said.

Plus, it isn't a figure of speech. There's no figure in the speech.

"I regret I made Saul king." Where is the "figure"?

Back to our merry-go-round...

How could God know Paul would obey the vision if He didn't give it to Paul first?

If He gave the vision to Paul because He knew Paul would obey it, He'd have to give the vision to Paul first, so He could watch whether Paul obeyed it or not and then it's too late to take back the vision if Paul disobeyed it.
quote:

The impetus for Paul obeying was the vision God gave.
The impetus for God giving the vision is that He saw Paul obeying.

see a problem with this?

What if God had seen Paul disobeying the vision God gave Paul?
Would He have not given the vision that He saw Paul not obeying? Wouldn't Paul then not be disobeying a vision God didn't give him?

---->God sees Paul obeying the vision --->
^ |
| V
<----So God gives Paul the vision<--------

Kind of like that.

Are you claiming that God does not have foreknowledge?

That's not an answer to your circular reasoning.

God knows what God is going to do in the future.

Isaiah 48:3
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."

He knows what He said He would do.

Now answer your circular reasoning. How can God decide to give the vision to Paul based on Paul's obeying it if God doesn't give the vision to Paul first, so He can watch whether Paul obeys it or not?

What if Paul disobeys the vision, how does God take the vision back?

Or should I just accept your inability to coherently answer your circular reasoning?

"Arrest the usual suspects."

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/14/2004 11:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You ignored what I posted about what is said concerning Judah.

Because I preferred to stick to this one issue for now. I will comment on Judah later.

http://revivaltheology.net

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/14/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You ignored what I posted about what is said concerning Judah.

Because I preferred to stick to this one issue for now. I will comment on Judah later.

Who sat on the throne of Judah after Jehoiachin? (since lock cannot resolve his circular reasoning)

Plus is lock implying that Saul wasn't the king of Judah because Saul was of the line of Benjamin?

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 5:46 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I personally can't see how you can avoid the charge of calling God a liar by saying the expression is merely figurative and not literally true.

Yeah. Saying it's a figure of speech doesn't make it opposite of what God said.

Plus, it isn't a figure of speech. There's no figure in the speech.

"I regret I made Saul king." Where is the "figure"?

Back to our merry-go-round...

How could God know Paul would obey the vision if He didn't give it to Paul first?

If He gave the vision to Paul because He knew Paul would obey it, He'd have to give the vision to Paul first, so He could watch whether Paul obeyed it or not and then it's too late to take back the vision if Paul disobeyed it.
quote:

The impetus for Paul obeying was the vision God gave.
The impetus for God giving the vision is that He saw Paul obeying.

see a problem with this?

What if God had seen Paul disobeying the vision God gave Paul?
Would He have not given the vision that He saw Paul not obeying? Wouldn't Paul then not be disobeying a vision God didn't give him?

---->God sees Paul obeying the vision --->
^ |
| V
<----So God gives Paul the vision<--------

Kind of like that.

Are you claiming that God does not have foreknowledge?

That's not an answer to your circular reasoning.

God knows what God is going to do in the future.

Isaiah 48:3
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."

He knows what He said He would do.

Now answer your circular reasoning. How can God decide to give the vision to Paul based on Paul's obeying it if God doesn't give the vision to Paul first, so He can watch whether Paul obeys it or not?

What if Paul disobeys the vision, how does God take the vision back?

Or should I just accept your inability to coherently answer your circular reasoning?

God knew beforehand that Paul would obey. It was a part of His divine plan. God does not only know what He is going to do but He also knows what humans are going to do. God knew how Paul would react to the vision. Not only does God know the future, but He also knows the heart.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 5:49 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You ignored what I posted about what is said concerning Judah.

Because I preferred to stick to this one issue for now. I will comment on Judah later.

They are related. Are you saying that God said Judah will rule, then decided, no, Benjamin will rule, then again changed His mind, no, I guess Judah should rule?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/14/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
God knew beforehand that Paul would obey.

Where precisely does the Bible say God knew beforehand that Paul would obey?

quote:
It was a part of His divine plan.

No disagreement on that.

quote:
God does not only know what He is going to do but He also knows what humans are going to do.

Many passages of scripture indicate that God does not always know precisely how humans are going to choose.

quote:
God knew how Paul would react to the vision.

Now THAT is possible, even within Open Theism.

quote:
Not only does God know the future, but He also knows the heart.

While OVTism agrees that God knows the heart, future choices, by nature of their contingent status, do not exist definitely to be known.

http://revivaltheology.net

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/14/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
Originally posted by JEE

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You ignored what I posted about what is said concerning Judah.

Because I preferred to stick to this one issue for now. I will comment on Judah later.

They are related. Are you saying that God said Judah will rule, then decided, no, Benjamin will rule, then again changed His mind, no, I guess Judah should rule?

A little uptight about this? Like I said, I will look into this side issue you raise in more detail later this evening.

But on first glance, it occurs to me that this applies just as much to your position as it does to mine, Lock. Who chose Saul but God?

In any case, the prophecies of God's king ruling Israel forever are still not literally fulfilled. The last time I checked, Israel was ruled by a parliamentary form of gov't.

http://revivaltheology.net

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 5:58 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan
[br
Who sat on the throne of Judah after Jehoiachin? (since lock cannot resolve his circular reasoning)

Plus is lock implying that Saul wasn't the king of Judah because Saul was of the line of Benjamin?

Khan-

Why did Matthew and Luke go through the trouble of pointed that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah?

Jesus will sit on the throne of David when He returns to set up the kingdom on earth.

I present my view for others to read. They can decide if it is right or wrong. Please, stop attacking my view. If you disagree, O.K. If you would like, present your view for others to read also. This is not a debate. No one is keeping tract of winning and losing. Present your view for other to make their own judgment.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 6:01 PM (GMT -6)

JEE,

quote:
Many passages of scripture indicate that God does not always know precisely how humans are going to choose.

Let's go through a couple. Give one or two examples of these passages.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/14/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6)

JEE

quote:
In any case, the prophecies of God's king ruling Israel forever are still not literally fulfilled. The last time I checked, Israel was ruled by a parliamentary form of gov't.

I will agree with this statement. The prophecy will be fulfilled in Christ.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

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