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Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 9/14/2004 11:24 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Please, stop attacking my view. If you disagree, O.K. If you would like, present your view for others to read also. This is not a debate.

Who gave you that idea? I'm sorry, but whoever told you that was having a little fun at your expense. It is a debate. Views will be attacked. It's not sinful to attack views. It's not sinful to debate. In fact I would argue that in many cases it's wrong not to attack certain views. We must remember it's the propositions and their support that we should attack and not the person. In this case I don't recall any attack that was not specifically addressed toward certain views. If I hit below the belt and make attacks that are not directed toward the actual views then call me on it, but I don't think labeling another's views "wrong" is below the belt if we give non-personal reasons why.

Let the attack/debate/massacre/war/[insert your evil-sounding word here]/battle/fight/duel of views resume.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
God knew beforehand that Paul would obey.

He'd have to give Paul the vision in order to see whether Paul obeyed it or not. If Paul disobeyed the vision, it'd be too late to take the vision back and not give it to Paul based on His knowing Paul wouldn't obey the vision.

If I point out how illogical and circular and paradoxical and unscriptural your interpretation of scripture is, don't take it personal, I'm doing it for the benefit of others.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 1:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by JEE
In any case, the prophecies of God's king ruling Israel forever are still not literally fulfilled. The last time I checked, Israel was ruled by a parliamentary form of gov't.[/font=Book Antiqua][/size=3]

No one has sat on the throne of Judah since Jehoiachin. And that was a failed prophecy as well as no one was supposed to sit on the throne after Jehoiakim, yet his son, Jehoiachin, did.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/15/2004 3:38 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Sahid

quote:
Please, stop attacking my view. If you disagree, O.K. If you would like, present your view for others to read also. This is not a debate.
You gave you that idea? I'm sorry, but whoever told you that was having a little fun at your expense. It is a debate. Views will be attacked. It's not sinful to attack views. It's not sinful to debate. In fact I would argue that in many cases it's wrong not to attack certain views. We must remember it's the propositions and their support that we should attack and not the person. In this case I don't recall any attack that was not specifically addressed toward certain views. If I hit below the belt and make attacks that are not directed toward the actual views then call me on it, but I don't think labeling another's views "wrong" is below the belt if we give non-personal reasons why.

Let the attack/debate/massacre/war/[insert your evil-sounding word here]/battle/fight/duel of views resume.

Sahid-

I agree with your statement. I wrote that post direted only to Khan.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/15/2004 3:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
God knew beforehand that Paul would obey.

He'd have to give Paul the vision in order to see whether Paul obeyed it or not. If Paul disobeyed the vision, it'd be too late to take the vision back and not give it to Paul based on His knowing Paul wouldn't obey the vision.

If I point out how illogical and circular and paradoxical and unscriptural your interpretation of scripture is, don't take it personal, I'm doing it for the benefit of others.

If I follow your reasoning, you put a limit on God's foreknowledge and His knowledge of Paul's heart, and how he will react to God's influence.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/15/2004 3:48 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by JEE
In any case, the prophecies of God's king ruling Israel forever are still not literally fulfilled. The last time I checked, Israel was ruled by a parliamentary form of gov't.[/font=Book Antiqua][/size=3]

No one has sat on the throne of Judah since Jehoiachin. And that was a failed prophecy as well as no one was supposed to sit on the throne after Jehoiakim, yet his son, Jehoiachin, did.

Once Israel was taken into captivity, God declared them "lo-ammi" not My people. Within God's timeline, time is not reckoned during the periods in which the people of Israel are "lo-ammi". Jehoiachin did not sit on the throne of God's people. The parliment of Israel today are not ruling over God's people. They will be God's people again when Jesus returns to set up the kingdom here on earth, at which time He will sit on the throne of David and fulfill the prophecy of Judah. There is a difference between God's dealings and man's. This is how I see it.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 4:08 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Once Israel was taken into captivity, God declared them "lo-ammi" not My people. Within God's timeline, time is not reckoned during the periods in which the people of Israel are "lo-ammi".

So there's a "break" in forever?

quote:

Jehoiachin did not sit on the throne of God's people.

That's funny because scripture says he did.

2 Kings 24:6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers, and Jehoiachin his son became king in his place.

2 Chronicles 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem, and he did evil in the sight of the LORD.

"became king" means "became king"

"Arrest the usual suspects."

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 4:30 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
If I follow your reasoning, you put a limit on God's foreknowledge and His knowledge of Paul's heart, and how he will react to God's influence.

If God knows Paul's heart before God gives Him the vision, that's God's knowlege of current information.

You're saying God gave Him the vision because He saw Paul obeying the vision. Which is circular.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/15/2004 7:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
So there's a "break" in forever?

If you are referring to the Hebrew word "olam", it does not mean forever. An olam is a period of time that has a beginning and an end. The amount of time within an olam may very. I am referring to Hosea 1:9-11, in which God declares the children of Israel as Lo-ammi or not My people, until the day He gathers them Himself, which will be at the return of Jesus. for example, this also accounts for the period of time (most likely some 2000 years) between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

quote:
If God knows Paul's heart before God gives Him the vision, that's God's knowlege of current information.

You're saying God gave Him the vision because He saw Paul obeying the vision. Which is circular.

No, I said God knew Paul would obey. God laid everything out before the eons were put into place. God knows the end from the beginning, His counsel shall stand.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 8:38 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
No, I said God knew Paul would obey.

Obey what? The vision. He has to see Paul's response to the vision prior to knowing (as a fact) Paul's response to the vision. If Paul disobeys the vision, it's too late to not give the vision.

"Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me."

"Arrest the usual suspects."

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
So there's a "break" in forever?

If you are referring to the Hebrew word "olam", it does not mean forever. An olam is a period of time that has a beginning and an end.

The prophecy was that the scepter "shall not depart Judah".

Genesis 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes;

After Jehoiachin it departed Judah.

Long before Shiloh arrived.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/15/2004 10:11 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
No, I said God knew Paul would obey.

Obey what? The vision. He has to see Paul's response to the vision prior to knowing (as a fact) Paul's response to the vision. If Paul disobeys the vision, it's too late to not give the vision.

"Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me."

God knew what He had to do in order for Paul to obey. God knows the end from the beginning. Do you think that Paul's position of the apostle to the gentiles was election or something Paul earned?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/15/2004 10:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock

quote:
So there's a "break" in forever?

If you are referring to the Hebrew word "olam", it does not mean forever. An olam is a period of time that has a beginning and an end.

The prophecy was that the scepter "shall not depart Judah".

Genesis 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes;

After Jehoiachin it departed Judah.

Long before Shiloh arrived.

Does this specify which coming of Shiloh. Jesus came in His lowly state the first time, and will return in His glorious state the second, to sit upon the throne of David, who was from the tribe of Judah, thus fulfilling this prophecy.

Do you understand what I said about the "Lo-ammi" periods, especially when looking at prophecy?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 9/15/2004 11:52 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
God knows the end from the beginning.

Actually the Bible says that God declares the end from the beginning. (What He is going to do, not what He foresees--Isaiah 46:10).

quote:
Do you think that Paul's position of the apostle to the gentiles was election or something Paul earned?

Depends on how you define election. (Of course it was not earned--how absurd). Paul himself says he "was not disobedient to the heavenly calling." OVTism generally agrees with the Arminian view of corporate election, not particularist, though as noted earlier, the Open View does not rule out the idea that God can call people in "real time." Thus, Paul was called and chosen by God, but the the precise timing of his calling does not have to be known from all eternity, as in classical theism.

http://revivaltheology.net

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 2:37 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Does this specify which coming of Shiloh.

It doesn't matter. The scepter departed from Judah before either visit of Shiloh. When it wasn't supposed to depart until Shiloh arrived.

"Arrest the usual suspects."

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/15/2004 2:59 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Do you think that Paul's position of the apostle to the gentiles was election or something Paul earned?

I think God selected Paul to take the gospel to the gentiles but it wouldn't have happened, through Paul, if he had disobeyed.

God would have had to have chosen someone else to take the gospel to the gentiles if Paul had been disobedient. Or try again with Paul.

When God selects you for a task, it's not something you earn whether you choose to obey or not.

Moses complained about his speaking ability so God went with designated speaker number two, Aaron.

The Israelites from Egypt failed to enter the land so God went with the next generation.

Saul failed as king so God rejected him and went with David.

Judas betrayed Jesus so his apostle spot was filled by another.

We're still waiting for the land to be cleared of the Amorites....

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/16/2004 2:18 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Do you think that Paul's position of the apostle to the gentiles was election or something Paul earned?

I think God selected Paul to take the gospel to the gentiles but it wouldn't have happened, through Paul, if he had disobeyed.

God would have had to have chosen someone else to take the gospel to the gentiles if Paul had been disobedient. Or try again with Paul.

When God selects you for a task, it's not something you earn whether you choose to obey or not.

Moses complained about his speaking ability so God went with designated speaker number two, Aaron.

The Israelites from Egypt failed to enter the land so God went with the next generation.

Saul failed as king so God rejected him and went with David.

Judas betrayed Jesus so his apostle spot was filled by another.

We're still waiting for the land to be cleared of the Amorites....

and this was all designed by God from the beginning.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/16/2004 2:50 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
and this was all designed by God from the beginning.

God designed failure.

If everything is designed by God, both good and evil, then when we point out how you use circular reasoning, why do you throw a hissy fit?

Isn't God just pointing this out to you, through us, since He designed everything?

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/16/2004 8:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
and this was all designed by God from the beginning.

God designed failure.

If everything is designed by God, both good and evil, then when we point out how you use circular reasoning, why do you throw a hissy fit?

Isn't God just pointing this out to you, through us, since He designed everything?

Look at the pattern in the bible...

Man's failure, God's provision.

Every example you gave pointed to man's failure, and God's provision.

My human reasoning is flawed, I have no doubt of that. But I can stand by the absolute truths of the bible.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/16/2004 8:16 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Look at the pattern in the bible...

Man's failure, God's provision.

God designed failure followed by God's patching up......
sounds like a "house divided against itself"

If a doctor heals someone, is that proof the doctor made them sick in the first place? no

quote:

My human reasoning is flawed, I have no doubt of that. But I can stand by the absolute truths of the bible.

Absolute truths of the bible as interpreted by your flawed human reasoning.

If a flawed human being tells you something is absolutely true, can you believe him?

The liars paradox.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/par-liar.htm

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/16/2004 8:20 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Look at the pattern in the bible...

Man's failure, God's provision.

God designed failure followed by God's patching up......
sounds like a "house divided against itself"

If a doctor heals someone, is that proof the doctor made them sick in the first place? no
quote:

My human reasoning is flawed, I have no doubt of that. But I can stand by the absolute truths of the bible.

Absolute truths of the bible as interpreted by your flawed human reasoning.

If a flawed human being tells you something is absolutely true, can you believe him?

The liars paradox.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/par-liar.htm

Where do you find your truth?

Are you claiming to not be flawed?

Or did you learn from an unflawed human?

You analogy using the doctor does not fit. I do not see God patching things up.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/16/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You analogy using the doctor does not fit. I do not see God patching things up.

What does "reconciling" mean to you?

Reconcile:

To reestablish a close relationship between.
To settle or resolve.
To bring (oneself) to accept.
To make compatible or consistent.

God wants to reestablish a close relationship with us, a repair of what once was.

God wants to settle/resolve what has been unresolved since Adam and Eve.

God is accepting us to Himself.

It's the repair of something that was damaged.

So why would the doctor wanting to repair something damaged be responsible for the damage in the first place? "a house divided against itself cannot stand"

"Arrest the usual suspects."

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/16/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Where do you find your truth?

Someone already answered this with a quote from Geisler:

http://www.ses.edu/journal/need.html

listing Objections to Defending the Faith: Biblical and Extra-Biblical:

quote:

6. The Natural Man Can't Understand Spiritual Truths

Paul insisted that "the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God..." (1 Cor. 2:14). They cannot even "know" them. What use, then, is apologetics? In response to this argument against apologetics two things should be observed.

First, Paul does not say that natural persons cannot perceive truth about God, but only that they do not receive (Gk: dekomai, welcome) it. Indeed, Paul emphatically declared that the basic truths about God are "clearly seen" (Rom. 1:20). The problem is not that unbelievers are not aware of God's existence but that they do not want to accept Him because of the moral consequences this would have on their sinful lives.

Second, 1 Cor. 2:14 (NKJV) says they do not "know" (ginosko) which can mean to know by experience. In other words, they know God in their mind (Rom. 1:19-20) but they have not accepted Him in their heart (Rom. 1:18). The Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, `There is no God'" (Psa. 14:1).

"Arrest the usual suspects."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 9/16/2004 10:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Where do you find your truth?

Someone already answered this with a quote from Geisler:

http://www.ses.edu/journal/need.html

listing Objections to Defending the Faith: Biblical and Extra-Biblical:

quote:

6. The Natural Man Can't Understand Spiritual Truths

Paul insisted that "the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God..." (1 Cor. 2:14). They cannot even "know" them. What use, then, is apologetics? In response to this argument against apologetics two things should be observed.

First, Paul does not say that natural persons cannot perceive truth about God, but only that they do not receive (Gk: dekomai, welcome) it. Indeed, Paul emphatically declared that the basic truths about God are "clearly seen" (Rom. 1:20). The problem is not that unbelievers are not aware of God's existence but that they do not want to accept Him because of the moral consequences this would have on their sinful lives.

Second, 1 Cor. 2:14 (NKJV) says they do not "know" (ginosko) which can mean to know by experience. In other words, they know God in their mind (Rom. 1:19-20) but they have not accepted Him in their heart (Rom. 1:18). The Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, `There is no God'" (Psa. 14:1).

I agree with these statements. In your opinion, why is it that they choose to continue their sinful lives, disregarding the moral consequences?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Kublai Khan
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93

Posted 9/16/2004 12:05 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
I agree with these statements. In your opinion, why is it that they choose to continue their sinful lives, disregarding the moral consequences?

I don't know. Some choose to surrender to Jesus. Like you and me.

I heard once that Malcom Muggeridge interviewed Bertrand Russell when he was old and asked Russell what he wanted to be remembered for. Russell reputedly said, that he had been a good man and lived a good life. An atheist trying to hedge his bets?

People don't surrender to Jesus because they are unwilling.

Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

"Arrest the usual suspects."

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