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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/16/2004 6:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Kahn, question for you. Are you denying the fact that God knows all things? (cf. 1 John 3:20; what is the extent of the "everything"?) God knows full well why I chose Christ and John Doe didn't. Taking this verse in the context that you do, seems to deny God's omnipotence and omniscense. "What more was there to do for my vineyard..." So God did ALL that He could do and still fell short. "When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?" so God is learning through His existence? I think God knows full well why that happened, for it is up to Him to give them a Spirit of repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26; cf. Ez. 11:19, 20).
I ask that our hermenutic structure not give sway. It does no good to "proof text" passages that downplay the Jehovah's soveriegnty. All passages MUST be interpruted in within a wholistic view of the Word.
So what does this passage mean?
1) to all, who pull all too quickly, the poetry card (as in Rom. 3:10-11; Psalm 5:4, 5), why take such texts as literal? You are quickly to write off poetic structures backing the Classical Reformed view and yet all too quickly run to such texts that are poetry and give no substantial conclusion why I should take this seriously and not take the text that says, "There is NONE who does good..."
2) It is a perfect of anthropomorphism. God revealing Himself in human terms. You need to remember that this is poetry, that if taken by itself, yes it does prove what you say, but when taken in the whole of the Bible, must be interpruted differently. God is never "surprised" by the actions of man, for He knows "all" things. If taken in the sense that you desire it, we get a God who makes glass, knows how fragile it is; forms a rock and chucks it through the glass then questions as to why the glass broke. This portrays a "strange" God.
But this text is depicting God as the Bridegroom and Israel as the bride. It is a song (vs. 1), not meant to depict "dead" "sound" Biblical theology. This would be an appropriate spot to insert the "poetry" card. In the words of one good Biblical commentator:
" 4. What more ought to have been done to my vineyard? He first inquires what could have been expected from the best husbandman or householder, which he has not done to his vineyard? Hence he concludes that they had no excuse for having basely withheld from him the fruit of his toil.
How did I expect that it would yield grapes? In this clause he appears to expostulate with himself for having expected any good or pleasant fruit from so wicked a people; just as, when the result does not answer to our expectation, we complain of ourselves, and are angry at having ill-bestowed our labor on ungrateful persons whose wickedness ought to have restrained us from doing what we did, and acknowledge that we are justly deceived, because we were too simple and easily imposed on. But a more natural interpretation will be this: "Since I discharged every part of my duty, and did more than any one could have expected in dressing my vineyard, how comes it that it yields me so poor a return, and that, instead of the fruit which was expected, it yields what is absolutely bitter?"
If it be objected that God had the remedy in his hands, if he had turned the hearts of the people, this is an idle evasion as applied to those men; for their conscience holds them fast, so that they cannot escape by laying the blame on another. Though God do not pierce the hearts of men by the power of his Spirit, so as to render them obedient to him, yet they will have no right to complain that this was wanting; for every pretense of ignorance is fully and abundantly taken away by the outward call. Besides, God does not speak here of his power, but declares that he was not under any obligation to do more than he did."
So the question still remains, and this question does not pertain to God, for He knows the reason...
"Why did I choose Christ and John Doe did not?"
Grace to you,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Kublai Khan
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/17/2004 4:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Please tell me you did not just say that. That's not a Biblical picture of God. Wow.
Isaiah 5
1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2 He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 "So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
6 "I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned or hoed,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it."
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel
And the men of Judah His delightful plant.
Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.
What it really means, the "exegesis" is:
Isaiah 5
1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2 He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 "So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
6 "I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned or hoed,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it."
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel
And the men of Judah His delightful plant.
Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.
"Arrest the usual suspects." | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/17/2004 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I agree with these statements. In your opinion, why is it that they choose to continue their sinful lives, disregarding the moral consequences?
I don't know. Some choose to surrender to Jesus. Like you and me.
I heard once that Malcom Muggeridge interviewed Bertrand Russell when he was old and asked Russell what he wanted to be remembered for. Russell reputedly said, that he had been a good man and lived a good life. An atheist trying to hedge his bets?
People don't surrender to Jesus because they are unwilling.
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
Every choice we make is influenced in some way or another. What influences the choice to disregard moral consequences and not accept Jesus? Why are they unwilling? What, in their perspective is better then the grace found in Jesus?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Kublai Khan
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Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/17/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/17/2004 10:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
because it pleases their carnal desires to do so
JEE and Khan-
This is the answer to my question. It pleases their carnel desires to do so. Romans 8:5 "those who are in accord to the flesh, are disposed to that which is of the flesh."
"now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness, idolatry, enchantments, enmities, strife, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these... (Gal. 5:19-21).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/17/2004 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Kahn, what you are saying is not what I am saying. I agree that the people of Israel and that sinners don't choose God because they are unwilling. there is nothing in disagreement about that. but our choices and decisions we make are never nuetral choices. There is ALWAYS a bend ALWAYS a draw that inclines you to choose the way you do. Our wills work in accordance with our desires. Whatever our strongest desire is, that is what we choose. We never do something that we don't desire to do, period. People who reject God, do so because they are unwilling, because their wills (the choices the make, the deisres) are bent away from God in every aspect, Rom 8:6ff.
My question to you Kahn, is not why are the people UNWILLING to accept God; my question is why are some WILLING to accept God? Huge difference here.
And still if Isaiah 5 is to be interpruted in your scope you still come up with conflict. "I know that you can do ALL things and that NO PURPOSE of yours can be thwarted," (Job 42:2 ESV); "...all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'" (Dan. 4:35 ESV). "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God," (Ez. 11:19, 20 ESV). "...correcting his opponenet s with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will," (2 Tim. 2:25, 26 ESV). Kahn, these seem to be problem texts for your interpretation of this verse (Isa. 5:4). If you still desire to take verses at face value, then you get a way conflicting message in the Bible. On the one hand God says in His might and strength and soveriegnty, "I can do all things, I grant repentance, salvation is from me, I give new hearts, I can do all that I desire, no one can be saved unless i grant it to them and draw them to myself, and all that I gie to Christ WILL come to Christ..." and on the other hand a god who is weak, passive, learning, and saying, "Gee guys, why wouldn't you come to me. I thought I could do anything, but oh boy, you fooled me! I did everything I could in my omni-max power and yet you still refuse me. Yeah the heart thing, I was just joking about that, you have to give yourself a new heart. And me granting people repentance, well that doesn't apply here, cause i can't do it. And i guess I don't do everything according to the counsel of my own will, and WOW, I the 'perfect' god, I can fail!" Two conflicting (perhaps even polar opposite) views of God in the Bible, and yet God is a God of order and not chaos; and according to even your own philosophers, He declares to us, "come and reason with me..." (Is. 1). A basic class in hermenutics will teach you that this is WRONG and that Scripture MUST be interpreted in light of Scripture and that it NEVER contradicts itself. Not to mention depending on the various kinds of genres of writing, historical context, and analytical jazz all must come into play when interpreting Scripture. Pay attention to hermeneutics, hermeneutics, hermeneutics.
Grace Alone,
Borg
ps, I as well have an identical twin and in no way does this argument even begin to help you. just because we have the same parents, same genes, etc., in no way means that we are the same people, nor does it mean that we interact to our surrondings or other people in like manner. We are seperate people, with seperate identities, with seperate personalities. Our wills are not the same, he likes green, I like blue, he likes coffee, i hate the stuff. We are not the same person, our wills are not being equally affected and inclined towards the same things, except that of evil and wickedness.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/17/2004 11:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
There is ALWAYS a bend ALWAYS a draw that inclines you to choose the way you do. Our wills work in accordance with our desires. Whatever our strongest desire is, that is what we choose. We never do something that we don't desire to do, period. People who reject God, do so because they are unwilling, because their wills (the choices the make, the deisres) are bent away from God in every aspect, Rom 8:6ff.
A very pretty begging of the question. Fine. Our wills are controlled by our desires. Great. Now what controls our desires? Whether you call it will or desire, it's the same thing. Renaming the terms gets us nowhere. It is the advocate of libertarian freewill's view that nothing determines our desires/will/whatever you want to call it. He believes in a God who not only is strong enough to create predictable creatures but even strong enough to make unpredicatable ones. This God can create beings in his own image.
As to the contradiction in scripture quote:
..."I know that you can do ALL things and that NO PURPOSE of yours can be thwarted," (Job 42:2 ESV)
No purpose. Not even the purpose to allow freedom. What if God wanted to make creatures that could freely choose love? You wouldn't be able to thwart him. It's like Peter defending Jesus with the sword. Peter tried to thwart Jesus' purpose. But it was Jesus' purpose to die. If God wants to give up power, you can't stop him." quote:
...all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'" (Dan. 4:35 ESV).
Agreed. We have no power to keep God from doing what he has planned. He has planned to grant us some sovereignty. Gen 1:26-31. quote:
"And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God," (Ez. 11:19, 20 ESV).
quote:
"...correcting his opponenet s with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will," (2 Tim. 2:25, 26 ESV).
You need some editing on these. "And I will give them one heart [irrespective of their will/desires], and a new spirit I will put within them [irrespective of their will/desires]. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh [irrespective of their will/desires], that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them [whether they like it or not]. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God [irrespective of their will/desires],". "...correcting his opponenets with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance [irrespective of their will/desires] leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil [irrespective of their will], after being captured [irrespective of their will] by him to do his will," It only works when we add these assumptions to the text.quote:
"I can do all things, I grant repentance, salvation is from me, I give new hearts, I can do all that I desire, no one can be saved unless i grant it to them and draw them to myself, and all that I gie to Christ WILL come to Christ..."
I agree with every one of these statements about God. I don't agree with the assumption you bring into the text that our freedom is an illusion. quote:
on the other hand a god who is weak, passive, learning
Weak: He is strong but not overbearing. Passive: He is active and actively made beings in his likeness, active like him. Learning: Observing the choices we make and what we choose to become. Gen 22:12. quote:
Yeah the heart thing, I was just joking about that, you have to give yourself a new heart.
No! It's not that you disagree with open theism; it's that you distort it. We don't give ourself a new heart. God does that. When a woman opens a box containing an engagement ring, she can't say that she gave herself the ring, because she opened the box or said yes to a proposal. The guy who gave her the ring is the one who gave her the ring. She is only the one who accepted it. There is a difference between accepting and giving. Just because one freely accepts, it doesn't mean that they are the one who gave. In fact the opposite is true. Seriously. quote:
I the 'perfect' god, I can fail!
Not at the ultimate goal of creating a world with freedom and the opportunity for love. Only your God would fail at that. In fact, he's impotent to do that. God, under open theism, can create either a free or determined world. He chose free. quote:
it NEVER contradicts itself.
Bull. Conflicting biblical accounts are often placed side by side thereby highlighting the conflict. Gen 1,2. Gen 6-8. 1 Tim and Gal have contradictory views of women. The genealogy in Matthew contradicts the old testament. Fourteen generations my foot! Tell me, which did God create first, plants or man? The Bible, especially the old testament, makes it a point to contradict itself.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/18/2004 3:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it NEVER contradicts itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bull. Conflicting biblical accounts are often placed side by side thereby highlighting the conflict. Gen 1,2. Gen 6-8. 1 Tim and Gal have contradictory views of women. The genealogy in Matthew contradicts the old testament. Fourteen generations my foot! Tell me, which did God create first, plants or man? The Bible, especially the old testament, makes it a point to contradict itself.
Sahid-
Are claiming that the word of God is fallible? Or that God purposely contradicts Himself? For instance, "I am not like a man", no wait, I guess am.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/19/2004 5:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/19/2004 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
 Where do these carnal desires come from?
 From choosing to sin.
Actually, what you have said in that last sentence would not be my view on this. There is a crucial distinction that must be maintained between the desire and the will. One can DESIRE to be in good physical shape, but until one CHOOSES to commit to a regular exercise program, all their desiring accomplishes nothing but frustration for them. They choose to obey their carnal desires, and yes, it does please them to do so, but nevertheless the choice is still their's.
According to the book of James and according to Jesus (see scriptures below), sinful (not the exact same thing as carnal) desires come from "the heart." The heart, in the Hebrew mindset, was the very core of one's being, the will, the seat of personhood. When we sin, we CHOOSE to do so; there is no COERCION (it is not necessary), though there certainly are influences, impulses, propensities, ingrained habits, bad examples of others we have internalized, etc.
However, in the final analysis, a study of each of the Hebrew and Greek words for "sin" reveals that with every word the Scriptures use to denote sin a voluntary action is what is being described.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
In other words, one sins when one knowingly and willingly breaks the law of God (however much he knows of God's law), submits to his own desires (lust), and voluntarily CHOOSES to do that which he KNOWS he shouldn't do.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that KNOWETH to do good, and DOETH it not, to him it is SIN.
The "heart" involves the volitional aspect of one's personality, not just the emotional or impulse-driven aspect:
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Matthew. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Matthew 5:8 - Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
According to most people, it would seem that no one's going to heaven, if these words of Jesus are truth, for "no one can have a pure heart," according to the concept of constitutional sinfulness.
In Christ,
John Earp
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Kublai Khan
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/20/2004 1:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE and Khan-
Why do we choose to sin?
Because it pleases our carnel desires.
Where do these carnal desires come from?
From choosing to sin.
Adam and Eve chose to sin.
Jesus, born of flesh, didn't choose to sin.
Satan and a third of the angels chose to sin.
So, choosing to sin is not a result of being a human.
Paul shows how spiritual death (the carnal nature you're talking about) spread, because all chose to sin:
Romans 5:12 "so death spread to all men, because all sinned"
It spreads to each individual, when each individual chooses to sin:
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
So Adam is not responsible for your nature. That would be you.
Romans 1 shows the decline as well:
1. Through nature, God has made Himself evident. Romans 1:19,20
2. They knew God (so did Satan) but their response was to not honor God or thank Him. Romans 1:21 (as Geisler said "Paul does not say that natural persons cannot perceive truth about God, but only that they do not receive [Gk: dekomai, welcome] it. Indeed, Paul emphatically declared that the basic truths about God are "clearly seen" (Rom. 1:20). The problem is not that unbelievers are not aware of God's existence but that they do not want to accept Him because of the moral consequences this would have on their sinful lives.")
They became futile in their speculations. They started to worship other things.
3. God allowed them to go down this path. Romans 1:24 because they had exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Romans 1:25
No loop here.
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Kublai Khan
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/20/2004 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
ps, I as well have an identical twin and in no way does this argument even begin to help you. just because we have the same parents, same genes, etc., in no way means that we are the same people, nor does it mean that we interact to our surrondings or other people in like manner. We are seperate people, with seperate identities, with seperate personalities. Our wills are not the same, he likes green, I like blue, he likes coffee, i hate the stuff. We are not the same person, our wills are not being equally affected and inclined towards the same things, except that of evil and wickedness.
The point is that from birth, we made different choices yet had the same genetic makeup and the same environment. We are NOT mechanistic automatons.
A turing machine will ALWAYS produce the same result given the same input.
But humans sometimes choose chocolate, sometimes choose vanilla.
Are you arguing for a totally deterministic view of humans, like secular science does? No "ghost in the machine", no soul?
If what separates man from behavioral puppets like animals is a soul (mind, will, emotions) and what makes man in the image of God is a soul (mind, will, emotions), then man is like God, not deterministically predictable.
Genesis 4:4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard.
Two brothers, one who "inclined" his will toward God, the other "inclined" his will away from God.
Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
God told Cain who was responsible for Cain's inclination, Cain.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/20/2004 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE and Khan,
We chose to sin, because we want to please our carnel lusts. The decision is made in the heart, which is influenced by the lusts of the flesh. The lusts of the flesh (or carnel desires) are a product of sinning. "Spiritual" death passes on all because they sin. There is still a loop, you just try to hide it with different words.
Why do we choose to sin?
Because in our heart we chose to please our carnel disires over God.
Where do the carnel desires come from?
When we chose to sin, we are subject to "spriritual" death. Because we are "spiritually" dead, we have carnel desires.
So, we chose to sin when we obey our carnel desires instead of God, yet our carnel desires come from "spiritual" death, which is the result of choosing to sin?
Correct!
We are still going round and round!
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE and Khan,
We chose to sin, because we want to please our carnel lusts.
We "chose" to sin? Wouldn't that be "choose"?
(The second half of the sentence is present continuous tense, hence the need for the first half to be present tense as well, not past tense.)
Adam and Eve had no carnal lusts, yet chose to disobey God.
Jesus was born a man and never chose to sin.
Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
There's no loop. 
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