 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Could the Terrorists Have Chosen Otherwise? | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 3:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
"Spiritual" death passes on all because they sin.
At least you got one right.
Yeah, now he's contradicting himself.
The choice to sin precedes the development of a "carnal" nature. He agrees! LOL
Methinks lock needs to get a consistent argument together before he tries convincing anyone of anything!
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | It's evident that choosing to disobey God precedes any kind of nature "bent" in that direction.
1. Satan and pinhead loads of angels chose to disobey God.
2. Adam chose to disobey God.
3. Eve chose to disobey God.
All chose to disobey God without having any "carnal" nature.
Jesus was born, where was His "carnal" nature? Born as a man, tempted just as we are, He chose not to sin and thus never developed a "carnal" nature.
Cain was told that he was responsible for mastering the sin that was crouching at his door.
Abraham believed God first.
Afterwards God reckoned it to him as righteousness.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/20/2004 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I see Sisters has joined the circle!
quote:
2. Adam chose to disobey God.
3. Eve chose to disobey God.
All chose to disobey God without having any "carnal" nature
Where does it say this in scripture?
quote:
Jesus was born, where was His "carnal" nature? Born as a man, tempted just as we are, He chose not to sin and thus never developed a "carnal" nature.
Now you have created another dilemma. If Christ was not tempted by the flesh (where the carnel desires are) the same way we are, then the whole salvation concept is a sham! Your claiming Christ had it easier then us because He didn't have to war against the flesh and its desires. The scriptues plainly state that Jesus came "in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3).
You tell me that Adam and Eve chose to sin, the choice to sin developed the carnel nature. Pleasing our carnel nature leads to sin. You are still circling!
One other thing, if Christ died to save us from "spiritual" death, which you claim is a result from sinning and developing carnel lusts, then in order for Jesus to meet the requirement to save us, He would have had to die the "spiritual death" which you claim He did not because He did not develop the "carnel nature". It is you who is contradicting yourself.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I see Sisters has joined the circle!
quote:
2. Adam chose to disobey God.
3. Eve chose to disobey God.
All chose to disobey God without having any "carnal" nature
Where does it say this in scripture?
Where does it say they had a carnal nature before they sinned?
The idea of "original sin" is traced to what event? 
Spiritual death comes once we've sinned. Romans 5:12
quote:
Now you have created another dilemma. If Christ was not tempted by the flesh (where the carnel desires are) the same way we are, then the whole salvation concept is a sham!
I've always said Jesus came in the flesh, just like us, morally innocent (until we sin). Jesus didn't sin.
Because He was born, morally innocent and guiltless JUST LIKE US and yet never chose to sin, He can be our High Priest.
quote:
You tell me that Adam and Eve chose to sin, the choice to sin developed the carnel nature. Pleasing our carnel nature leads to sin. You are still circling!
I never said "pleasing our carnal nature leads us to sin".
You're confused, you are slipping from defending "original sin" to attacking "orginal sin". Which is it? Choose a side. LOL
People are born innocent. If they sin, they become sinners.
Jesus was born innocent. He never sinned and thus, never became a sinner.
People sin because they choose to sin.
quote:
First, Paul does not say that natural persons cannot perceive truth about God, but only that they do not receive (Gk: dekomai, welcome) it. Indeed, Paul emphatically declared that the basic truths about God are "clearly seen" (Rom. 1:20). The problem is not that unbelievers are not aware of God's existence but that they do not want to accept Him because of the moral consequences this would have on their sinful lives.
Second, 1 Cor. 2:14 (NKJV) says they do not "know" (ginosko) which can mean to know by experience. In other words, they know God in their mind (Rom. 1:19-20) but they have not accepted Him in their heart (Rom. 1:18). The Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, `There is no God'" (Psa. 14:1).
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/20/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Sisters-
You forgot to answer this one...
One other thing, if Christ died to save us from "spiritual" death, which you claim is a result from sinning and developing carnel lusts, then in order for Jesus to meet the requirement to save us, He would have had to die the "spiritual death" which you claim He did not because He did not develop the "carnel nature". It is you who is contradicting yourself
quote:
Where does it say they had a carnal nature before they sinned?
The idea of "original sin" is traced to what event?
I never said original sin. Show me in the bible where it says "the Fall of man". It doesn't. God formed man and women from the dust of the earth (thus the earthly, flesh). God breathed in man the breath of life. When the breath of life combined with the flesh, man became a living soul (psuche in the Greek).
Gen 3:6 "And when the women saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise..."
Here you can see the flesh warring against the mind. Eve knew in her mind not to eat the fruit from that tree. Not only was the fruit pleasant to the eyes, but it promised wisdom apart from God's provision.
It is all about your disposition. Rom. 8:6-9, "For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God. Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you."
quote:
Spiritual death comes once we've sinned. Romans 5:12
It says death, not "spiritual" death. This speaks of life during the eons of the eons or death during the eons of the eons.
quote:
never said "pleasing our carnal nature leads us to sin".
You're confused, you are slipping from defending "original sin" to attacking "orginal sin". Which is it? Choose a side. LOL
People are born innocent. If they sin, they become sinners.
Jesus was born innocent. He never sinned and thus, never became a sinner.
People sin because they choose to sin.
What is this "if they sin" stuff? Jesus is the only, and will be the only person to live in the flesh and not sin. He was able to due this by the power of God through God's spirit. Of course people choose to sin, when they have been "drawn away and lured by their own desire. Thereafter, the desire, conceiving, is bring forth sin, Now sin, fully consummated, is teeming forth death" (James 1:14-15). Where does the desire come from? The flesh. Does this say death or spiritual death? death.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I never said original sin. Show me in the bible where it says "the Fall of man". It doesn't.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Sin didn't enter the world until Adam and Eve brought it.
quote:
God formed man and women from the dust of the earth
in His image. In the image of God, male and female.
quote:
What is this "if they sin" stuff?
1 John 2:
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Adam and Eve died a spiritual death (separation from God) after their sin in the garden. The fact that they went on physically living proves that. The fact that they were kicked out of the garden and no longer walked with God in the cool of the evening proves that.
Jesus suffered spiritual death (separation from God) when He hung on the cross loaded down with the sins of people, who chose to rebel against God, on Him.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die."
Being a self-professed totally depraved liar, corrupt in all your flesh, on what do you base your belief that you're converted?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/20/2004 1:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Sisters-
I have yet to read, "spiritual" death in the bible.
Let me see if I understand this...
A human baby is born innocent.
At the magical age of accountability, the human must decide whether to sin or not.
If they sin, they die spiritually, and develop a sinful nature. If they don't sin, what happens? If this was a possiblility, then what did God have ready for those who chose not to sin, since He knows all possibilities? Besides Jesus, who else has made the right decision? If there is noone else, why?
At the magical age of accountability, what are the human's choices? To make a choice, one must have choices to choose from. They just choose to obey God or not? They can't choose to follow their sinful nature because according to you, they haven't developed it yet. What is their other choice apart from God?
quote:
Jesus suffered spiritual death (separation from God) when He hung on the cross loaded down with the sins of people, who chose to rebel against God, on Him.
There is no doubt that Jesus suffered seperation from God due to the sin He took on at the cross, but this is still not proof that it was a spiritual death. Plus, if Jesus dies the spiritual death for us, what is the use of His physical death? If the price of sin is spiritual death, why bother with the physical death?
Gal. 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Here it is straight and simple. The flesh lusts against the spirit, the spirit against the flesh. They are contrary.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/20/2004 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters-
Let me see if I understand this...
A human baby is born innocent.
What sin could they POSSIBLY be guilty of committing at that point, Lock? Do you believe babies are born deserving hell, and do in fact go to hell if they die?
quote:
At the magical age of accountability, the human must decide whether to sin or not.
It's not a "magical" age of accountability, it's simply the point at which a child knows to choose the good, and refuse the evil (Isaiah 7 and Romans 9 refers to this, as well as Romans 7, in which Paul says, "I once was alive apart from the law, the law came, sin came to life, and I died.")
quote:
If they sin, they die spiritually, and develop a sinful nature.
How can sin EVER be a "nature?" Every one of the biblical words translated as sin, trespass, or iniquity all speak of a voluntarily chosen act or state of habituation. The Bible certainly never states or even implies that sin is anything but voluntarily done, and therefore WORTHY of DAMNATION.
quote:
If they don't sin, what happens? If this was a possiblility, then what did God have ready for those who chose not to sin, since He knows all possibilities?
Theoretically, they would INHERIT, (but not "merit") eternal life, unless you presuppose that God sends aborted babies to hell because of Adam's sin or because of their "sinful nature."
quote:
Besides Jesus, who else has made the right decision?
Enoch and Elijah would be likely candidates. The Bible says sin shall not enter heaven, and yet these two were said to be taken directly to heaven, having never experienced death.
quote:
At the magical age of accountability, what are the human's choices? To make a choice, one must have choices to choose from. They just choose to obey God or not? They can't choose to follow their sinful nature because according to you, they haven't developed it yet. What is their other choice apart from God?
This is what I was talking about the other day when I referred to the PHYSICAL depravity of mankind, by which is meant that due to the sin of our first parents, Adam & Eve, all of their progeny have inherited a less-than-perfect PHYSICAL constitution (an inherent tendency to develop disease and consequently to die physically), which greatly incites the natural instinct of self-preservation. This physical depravity in turn develops into selfish motives in the young child (Who can doubt that children all tend to be selfish to one degree or another?), and once they become cognizant of their moral obligations (which age differs according to individual cognitive development), they will in fact choose selfishness (sin) over benevolence (holiness), but this is a freely chosen sin on their part, and they are in fact guilty for doing that which they KNOW they shouldn't do (see Romans chs. 1 and 2 for clear scriptural teaching on the fact that all sin because they CHOOSE to sin).
It is the mystery of iniquity, as John Sanders says. Why do people sin? It is the mystery of iniquity.
quote:
Gal. 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Here it is straight and simple. The flesh lusts against the spirit, the spirit against the flesh. They are contrary.
Actually, if you read the entire context, Paul makes it clear that one may do one OR the other (obey the lusts of the flesh or obey the Spirit of Christ), not that they are in a constant struggle between the two. What Paul is saying in v.17 is that you cannot do BOTH at the same time, sin and not sin, or make two opposite choices simultaneously. It is an inherently self-contradictory state of mind to try to obey God by walking in the Spirit AT THE SAME TIME as obeying one's lusts by walking according to the flesh. This is also plainly spelled out in Romans 8:1-14.
Gal. 5:16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. (So he can't mean "human" in V.17 when he says "flesh." He must mean living to GRATIFY SELF).
22By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. NRSV
Two starkly different, opposing modes of existence, in the flesh, or in the Spirit:
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
(Two completely different, mutually exclusive categories of people).
6To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are NOT in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(True Christians are NOT in the flesh, according to Paul).
10But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through* his Spirit that dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, ‘Abba! Father!’ 16it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ—if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 4:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Here it is straight and simple. The flesh lusts against the spirit, the spirit against the flesh. They are contrary.
Mr Earp answered you so well, I won't even try and improve on it.
Just say that, Jesus in the flesh, didn't lust against the spirit.
And since He came in the flesh and was tempted JUST LIKE ME, with the ability to choose good or choose evil and yet He chose to obey ALL the Law, He can be my High Priest. Because He came in the flesh and fulfilled all the Law.
Tempted on all points JUST LIKE ME.
A God who condemns children for simply being born is not the God I worship.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/20/2004 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Sisters-
For one, I do not believe in the christian idea of a hell. Second, a person would be better off being aborted or dying before the age of accountability so that they never sin, right? Paul makes it clear that it is about your disposition. The disposition of the flesh is death, the disposition of spirit is life. You did not choose to be born in the flesh, and you do not choose when God takes away the flesh.
quote:
Because He came in the flesh and fulfilled all the Law.
Tempted on all points JUST LIKE ME.
You said that a person chooses to sin, then dies spiritually, thus developing the "sinful nature". Now I am assuming you have sinned and have a "sinful nature", how can you claim Jesus is tempted the same as you when He never developed this "sinful nature"? We are not talking about just before Jesus died, and was seperated from God. We are talking about His life. When during His life was He tempted by the same "sinful nature" that we are, being that He never developed it, according to your claim?
The desires are in the flesh. Adam and Eve battled against their flesh and lost. They knew what was right and yet gave into their desire and sinned against God. All of us will battle against the flesh and lose, until God takes the flesh away through the death of His Son.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/20/2004 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Zarqawi and his butchers just beheaded another noncombatant American over in Iraq. Must notta had God's Spirit influencing them to do right. 
Men acting in accord with the flesh.
Which, according to your sin-excusing and God-blaspheming theory, they simply could not help BUT do. While I respect you as a person, lock, I cannot respect your philosophy. It makes God into the worst tyrant possible, commanding us, upon pain of eternal death, to do that which He fully knows is a SHEER impossibility for us to actually do. Your philosophy DESTROYS any concept of right and wrong, in that everybody's going to heaven anyway, and sin is part of God's plan, so all's well that ends well. Perhaps most egregiously, it makes God to be a baldfaced liar, in that His Word says "his commandments are not burdensome," and that we are able to obey him if we submit to him through repentance and faith. Yet according to your philosophy God is not being straight with us when he commands us to obey.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/20/2004 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters-
For one, I do not believe in the christian idea of a hell. Second, a person would be better off being aborted or dying before the age of accountability so that they never sin, right?
Only if they end up living for self and not God. Jesus himself said of Judas that it would have been better if he had never been born.
quote:
quote:
Because He came in the flesh and fulfilled all the Law.
Tempted on all points JUST LIKE ME.
You said that a person chooses to sin, then dies spiritually, thus developing the "sinful nature". Now I am assuming you have sinned and have a "sinful nature", how can you claim Jesus is tempted the same as you when He never developed this "sinful nature"? We are not talking about just before Jesus died, and was seperated from God. We are talking about His life. When during His life was He tempted by the same "sinful nature" that we are, being that He never developed it, according to your claim?
Good point, lock. Another important reason (among many) to reject the absurd and God-dishonoring idea of a "sinful nature."
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/21/2004 1:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Second, a person would be better off being aborted or dying before the age of accountability so that they never sin, right?
If you believe God creates people in an innocent state, then no.
If you believe God creates people as guilty already with some of them made just for damnation, then yes.
But why does God create people at all then? We're just "pets". Some of us He is fond of, some of us He kicks around.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die."
quote:
You did not choose to be born in the flesh, and you do not choose when God takes away the flesh.
Jesus came in the flesh. That's proof enough that the flesh, in it's original state is not sinful.
Adam and Eve lived in the flesh. They weren't sinners until they sinned.
quote:
You said that a person chooses to sin, then dies spiritually, thus developing the "sinful nature". Now I am assuming you have sinned and have a "sinful nature", how can you claim Jesus is tempted the same as you when He never developed this "sinful nature"?
Jesus came in the flesh, just like me.
The flesh, in it's original state is not sinful.
Both Jesus and me were tempted in this innocent flesh. That's how He was tempted JUST LIKE ME.
Jesus, coming as superman, impervious to any temptation, that's NOT being tempted "just like me".
It's so simple and yet you trip over it!
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/21/2004 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Sisters-
You are still not understanding what I am saying. You told me that A person originally just chooses to sin, you can't explain why, so it is a mystery, the mystery of lawlessness.
James 1:14, 15
"Now each one is undergoing trial when he is drawn away and lured by his own desire"
It does not say the desire in itself is wrong or a sin, but that it can lure and draw a person away from God. Satan tried to use the Jesus' basic desire to eat after much fasting, which in itself is not wrong, but it would have led Jesus away from God's provision, thus Jesus' answer, "Man does not live by bread alone. Eve had desired to eat the fruit becasue it looked good to eat. In itself that is not wrong, but it lead her away from God's provision.
"Thereafter, the desire, concieving, is bringing forth sin."
Giving into these desires, allowing them to dictate our choices, leads to sin. You are correct that Jesus did not get to this point, because He knew no sin. He did not allow the desires to dictate His choices. He was fully lead by the spirit of God, not the flesh.
"Now, sin, fully consummated, is teeming forth death."
This does not say "spiritual death". Eonian life and eonian death speaks of life during the eons of the eons, not a person's eternal destiny.
quote:
So you DO admit you believe babies are born sinful (and thus deserving of God's wrath, for something they could not help)!
No John, I am saying that as long a person is in the flesh, the desires of the flesh will at some point in their life, lead them to choose to sin. At what point a person first sins, I don't know. I would agree with you that it is different with each person. I have never said a person is born with a sinful nature, I have claimed that a person is born in flesh. Sin develops when a person is lead away from God by the simple desires of the flesh, which then concieves sin (see above).
quote:
Which, according to your sin-excusing and God-blaspheming theory, they simply could not help BUT do.
That's a little harsh, John. They are not responsible for being born in the flesh. They are not responsible for the basic desires of the flesh. They are responsible for allowing these basic desires to lead them away from God and choosing to sin.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/21/2004 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lock
James 1:14, 15
"Now each one is undergoing trial when he is drawn away and lured by his own desire"
It does not say the desire in itself is wrong or a sin, but that it can lure and draw a person away from God. Satan tried to use the Jesus' basic desire to eat after much fasting, which in itself is not wrong, but it would have led Jesus away from God's provision, thus Jesus' answer, "Man does not live by bread alone. Eve had desired to eat the fruit becasue it looked good to eat. In itself that is not wrong, but it lead her away from God's provision.
"Thereafter, the desire, concieving, is bringing forth sin."
Giving into these desires, allowing them to dictate our choices, leads to sin. You are correct that Jesus did not get to this point, because He knew no sin. He did not allow the desires to dictate His choices. He was fully lead by the spirit of God, not the flesh.
I don't disagree with any of this. Though it does differ from how you phrased it on this thread
http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3589
where you said:
quote:
We are incapable of choosing God because of our helpless and sinful state.
No, I cannot trust my depraved human mind nor can I trust my depraved human heart
The soulish man in not recieving the things of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them (1 Cor. 2:14).
Geisler says the natural man knows them but doesn't volitionally receive them.
quote:
My flesh is incapable of earning my salvation. My flesh is as good as already dead
You've switched from talking about the flesh, alone, to talking about the mind set on the flesh or the spirit.
OKay, Jesus was born in the flesh but set His mind on the spirit, not the flesh. He obeyed God, in the flesh, and can be our High Priest because He was tempted JUST LIKE US. This means that we are born in the flesh with the ability to set our minds on the spirit, not the flesh.
We know the things of God but do not receive them, 1 Cor. 2:14.
God can hold us responsible BECAUSE we have the ability to set our minds on the spirit but often don't.
Sometimes we do, like Job and Abraham did; sometimes we don't.
If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. 1 John 2:1,2
God does not, can not, hold people responsible for that which they cannot do.
God does not impute sin onto people. The person who sins is responsible for their own sin. Ezekial 18:20
Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." | | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/21/2004 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You've switched from talking about the flesh, alone, to talking about the mind set on the flesh or the spirit.
Those who are in accord with the flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit (Rom. 8:5). Before a person is saved, they do have the capability to know what is the right thing to do because God's law in written in our hearts, but the flesh is weak. The desires of the flesh draw us away and concieves sin (James 1:14). Before a person is saved, they can know what the things of God are, but as you said, they will not recieve them because they are stupidity. Sin makes it's home in the flesh, and we become slaves to sin and unrighteousness (Rom. 7:23). This is the state I have always been referring to. A mind influenced by the flesh (the natural man) is unable to recieve the things of God.
Once God, through the cross of Jesus, cuts away the flesh, we then become slaves to righteousness (Rom. 6:18). We no longer walk after the flesh, but in accord with the spirit. We are to reckon the flesh dead and buried with Christ, and we are to walk as if resurrected.
quote:
OKay, Jesus was born in the flesh but set His mind on the spirit, not the flesh. He obeyed God, in the flesh, and can be our High Priest because He was tempted JUST LIKE US.
I would agree.
quote:
This means that we are born in the flesh with the ability to set our minds on the spirit, not the flesh.
This statement contradicts Rom 8:7-8;
"because the disposition of the flesh is emnity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God."
Now, if you would have stated that when we are born in the flesh, our mind wills to obey God and His commands, but it is not able due to the infirm flesh (Rom. 8:3) then I would agree. The ability is in our hearts, but the flesh is weak.
Sisters, we differ in that you see man choosing to accept God's gift or not while still in in accord with the flesh, then God saves him and takes away the flesh. I see the bible teaching that man, while in accord with the flesh, is unable to please God or recieve the things of God. God saves the person by taking the flesh out of the way through the death of Christ. Only then is a person free from the law of sin and death and able to develop the loving and personal relationship he craves to have with His creator. I also believe that God will do this for all mankind.
quote:
Sometimes we do, like Job and Abraham did; sometimes we don't.
Abraham is a great example because He tried all he could to help God out in his flesh. He tried putting forth Eliezer (Gen. 15:2) as a suitable seed. He tried to do it himself by concieving Ishmael (Gal. 4:23). It wasn't until Abraham was incapable of producing a seed due to his and Sarah's old age that God fulfilled His promise to Abraham. God takes the flesh out of the way to suit His purposes.
quote:
God does not, can not, hold people responsible for that which they cannot do.
Rom. 9:19-21
"You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?" or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?"
I know you will speak of context, so explain how it is fair that God hated Esau before his "age of accountability".
One last thing to chew on. The bible speaks of God judging the heart. He does not hold us responsible for the flesh, He judges the heart. The law of God is written in the heart of man. Man is incapable of keeping the law due to the flesh. Man then changes the law, not holding to the truth, changing the truth into a lie. They realize they cannot keep God's laws, so they make up they own rules, or their own gods (Rom. 1:18-23). This is what God judges. The hidden things of humanity (Rom. 2:16).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/21/2004 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
You've switched from talking about the flesh, alone, to talking about the mind set on the flesh or the spirit.
Those who are in accord with the flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit (Rom. 8:5). Before a person is saved, they do have the capability to know what is the right thing to do because God's law in written in our hearts, but the flesh is weak. The desires of the flesh draw us away and concieves sin (James 1:14). Before a person is saved, they can know what the things of God are, but as you said, they will not recieve them because they are stupidity. Sin makes it's home in the flesh, and we become slaves to sin and unrighteousness (Rom. 7:23). This is the state I have always been referring to. A mind influenced by the flesh (the natural man) is unable to recieve the things of God.
Because they're unwilling. By saying they are incapable, you are removing their responsibility.
quote:
This statement contradicts Rom 8:7-8;
"because the disposition of the flesh is emnity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God."
But Jesus was in the flesh. The mind set on the flesh is enmity to God.
quote:
Now, if you would have stated that when we are born in the flesh, our mind wills to obey God and His commands, but it is not able due to the infirm flesh (Rom. 8:3) then I would agree. The ability is in our hearts, but the flesh is weak.
But Jesus was born in the flesh.
quote:
Sisters, we differ in that you see man choosing to accept God's gift or not while still in in accord with the flesh, then God saves him and takes away the flesh. I see the bible teaching that man, while in accord with the flesh, is unable to please God or recieve the things of God. God saves the person by taking the flesh out of the way through the death of Christ. Only then is a person free from the law of sin and death and able to develop the loving and personal relationship he craves to have with His creator. I also believe that God will do this for all mankind.
quote:
Sometimes we do, like Job and Abraham did; sometimes we don't.
Abraham is a great example because He tried all he could to help God out in his flesh. He tried putting forth Eliezer (Gen. 15:2) as a suitable seed. He tried to do it himself by concieving Ishmael (Gal. 4:23). It wasn't until Abraham was incapable of producing a seed due to his and Sarah's old age that God fulfilled His promise to Abraham. God takes the flesh out of the way to suit His purposes.
Yeah, Abraham believed God but tried to assist God in doing it. Yet it was because Abraham believed God that righteousness was counted towards him.
quote:
quote:
God does not, can not, hold people responsible for that which they cannot do.
Rom. 9:19-21
"You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?" or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?"
I know you will speak of context, so explain how it is fair that God hated Esau before his "age of accountability".
Romans 9 is Paul talking about Israel. Looking back to the old testament, Paul references Jacob and Esau, who represent two groups of people, the people of the promise and those who weren't. That's why we think the election in Romans 9 is about groups and not individuals. The individual salvation of Jacob and Esau is not what is being talked about, their election was to a group/national purpose.
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
Even within the elected group of Israel, you have people like Aachan being "unelected" due to their disobedience.
And people from outside the election getting in through their obedience, like Rahab.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/21/2004 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Romans 9 is Paul talking about Israel. Looking back to the old testament, Paul references Jacob and Esau, who represent two groups of people, the people of the promise and those who weren't. That's why we think the election in Romans 9 is about groups and not individuals. The individual salvation of Jacob and Esau is not what is being talked about, their election was to a group/national purpose.
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
You still have yet to explain why God hated the nation that came from Esau or why Jacob was chosen over Esau.
quote:
Even within the elected group of Israel, you have people like Aachan being "unelected" due to their disobedience.
And people from outside the election getting in through their obedience, like Rahab.
The evangel to the Isrealtes is different to that of the gentiles. Jesus said, "many are called, but few are chosen." All of the nation of Israel was called, but only a few are chosen. Paul mentions this chosen group in Romans 11:2-5.
The evangel to the gentiles is "Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also, now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:30).
Note the difference between the two evangels:
Isreal= Many are called, few are chosen
Gentiles= designated beforehand, called, justified, glorified.
quote:
Because they're unwilling. By saying they are incapable, you are removing their responsibility.
Paul said the opposite;
"For it is not not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice" (Rom. 6:19).
As I said in the last post, God is not judging the flesh, He is judging the heart or psuche.
quote:
But Jesus was in the flesh. The mind set on the flesh is enmity to God.
But Jesus was born in the flesh.
Yes, Jesus was born in the flesh. The definition of Christ is the annoited. Jesus Christ, God's Annoited was annoited by the very spirit of God.
John 3:34 "For He Whom God commissions is speaking God's declarations, for God is not giving the spirit by measure."
He was tempted by the same desires we are, but did not walk after the flesh, instead He walked after His annoiting, the spirit of God. Thus He condemned sin in His flesh by fulfilling the just requirement of the law (Rom. 8:4).
quote:
Yeah, Abraham believed God but tried to assist God in doing it. Yet it was because Abraham believed God that righteousness was counted towards him.
I stated it as an alegory of God taking the flesh out of the equation in order to fufill His purposes.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/21/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rossfadeinout
Quick question Lock...
You keep mentioning the phrase "eons of the eons." What does that mean?
Also, you base alot of your arguments on your understanding of Greek words. And Your understanding of these Greek words seems to be in conflict with what most Greek scholars say. Where did you study Greek?
Hoping to help out the discussion....
Ross
Hello Ross,
As far as the "eons of the eons" read this work by Louis Abbott...
www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/abbott/abbot000.htm
I study Greek out of my own home. I have a number of concordances and dictionaries and plenty of time. It does not take much studying to see the inconsistency in many translations. As far as translations go, I try to stick to literal translations from the Greek for the New Testament, but the Companion Bible, which is in the KJV (AV), but with many footnotes from William Bullinger, I have found to be helpful also.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
| 208 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:11 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|