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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 1:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
You still have yet to explain why God hated the nation that came from Esau or why Jacob was chosen over Esau.
God chose Jacob to continue the line from Abraham to Jesus. I don't have to explain why.  That's what the choice was about in Romans 9, the line from Abraham to Jesus will continue through Jacob, not Esau.
quote:
Even within the elected group of Israel, you have people like Aachan being "unelected" due to their disobedience.
And people from outside the election getting in through their obedience, like Rahab.
Within the national calling of Israel to provide the messiah, people had individual freedom to choose or reject their participation in that national purpose.
Those who accept the free gift of God, are placed into Christ and are now part of the initially empty group that God foreordained for good works, for justification, for glorification.
There is an election but it's "in Him". If you're "in Him", you're part of the elect. Confession and belief (Romans 10:9,10) are how you get yourself placed into Him.
Look at Rahab's example. She was not part of the nation of Israel, yet due to her obedience was placed into the nation and ended up being part of the lineage of Jesus. What an illustration of how we are placed into Christ, becoming part of the election, once we are obedient to the call of God.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 1:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Paul clearly explains, "that before they were born or had done any anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in electionmight stand-not by works but by Him that calls" (Rom. 9:11-12). It does not sound here like Paul was speaking of Esau's persistence in rebellion against God was the cause for God's election nor does it explain why God chose Jacob over Esau, beyond the fact of God's election according to His purposes.
God's choice of Jacob to continue the line from Abraham to Jesus.
In a land of polytheists, God was actively separating a people that would be monotheistic.
It has NOTHING to do with Jacob's individual "salvation".
God had a purpose for continuing the line past Isaac, He had to make a choice, twin boys were being born.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/22/2004 8:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So Paul (and the HOLY SPIRIT) used that Malachi 1:2 out of context?
JEE-
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
It is right there. How it it out of context? God chose Jacob over Esau for the fact alone, that the purpose of His election would stand. This election has nothing to do with the men, but God alone. The quote from Malachi is used as proof that God's election and provision stood with Jacob and not Esau.
Sister-
quote:
God chose Jacob to continue the line from Abraham to Jesus. I don't have to explain why. That's what the choice was about in Romans 9, the line from Abraham to Jesus will continue through Jacob, not Esau.
No explanation is needed, because it meets God's purpose of election, which has nothing to do with the 2 men involved, but God alone.
quote:
It has NOTHING to do with Jacob's individual "salvation".
I said nothing of individual salvation. This is an example of God's election or choices He makes that have nothing to do with what humans do, think or choose. God's election stands.
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I said nothing of individual salvation. This is an example of God's election or choices He makes that have nothing to do with what humans do, think or choose. God's election stands.
No disagreement here.
When God elects one nation for a purpose over another, it's His choice.
God's election of Abraham to be the progenitor of the vessel for the messiah, God's sovereign choice.
Abraham's agreement and obedience to this, Abraham's choice.
God's election of Jesus to be the vessel for the bride, God's sovereign choice.
Jesus' agreement and obedience to this, Jesus' choice.
God's election of Paul to be the missionary to the gentiles, God's sovereign choice.
Paul's agreement and obedience to this, Paul's choice.
God's election of Saul to be king over Israel, God's sovereign choice.
Saul's eventual rejection of this, Saul's choice.
God's election of Moses to be His spokesman to Israel in captivity, God's sovereign choice.
Moses' request that someone else do the speaking, Moses' choice.
God allows enough freedom (within His purpose that Moses be the spokesman) to have Aaron do the actual talking instead. Freedom within God's plan.
I'm glad we agree on God's sovereign choice when it comes to work details. 
I think the problem is in how finely grained you think God's purposes are and how coarsely grained we think they are. My company has a broad purpose for their goal yet I and others have great freedom within that purpose to make choices of how it's implemented.
Youse guys:
God: I'm having a wedding.
Us: Who's invited?
God: Here's my list...
Us guys:
God: I'm having a wedding.
Us: Who's invited?
God: Anyone that wants to come...
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/22/2004 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
So Paul (and the HOLY SPIRIT) used that Malachi 1:2 out of context?
JEE-
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
It is right there. How it it out of context? God chose Jacob over Esau for the fact alone, that the purpose of His election would stand. This election has nothing to do with the men, but God alone. The quote from Malachi is used as proof that God's election and provision stood with Jacob and not Esau.
In the original context, Malachi seems to clearly NOT be saying Esau was HATED from all eternity, but rather that Esau was completely deserving of God's rejection.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/22/2004 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
When God elects one nation for a purpose over another, it's His choice.
God's election of Abraham to be the progenitor of the vessel for the messiah, God's sovereign choice.
Abraham's agreement and obedience to this, Abraham's choice.
I agree to the point that Abraham's choice was the effect of the influences of God (the cause). I would agree that Abraham freely loved and chose to obey God (which is the effect) because of God's influence (the cause). According to the account Abraham made a few bad choices, influenced by the flesh, such as saying Sarah was his sister or the birth of Ishmael. But what part did Abraham really have in fulfilling the promise? He and Sarah were incapable of having children, due to their age. It took a miracle from God for the promise to fulfilled.
quote:
Paul's agreement and obedience to this, Paul's choice.
Again I agree, but only because of God's influence aided Paul to make this choice. When speaking of his conversion, Paul declares that the grace of God overwhelms.
quote:
God allows enough freedom (within His purpose that Moses be the spokesman) to have Aaron do the actual talking instead. Freedom within God's plan.
I would agree, if you would agree that with His foreknowledge God knew that the outcome beforehand and knew that Aaron would be the voice of Moses, which also lead to the priesthood.
quote:
Youse guys:
God: I'm having a wedding.
Us: Who's invited?
God: Here's my list...
Us guys:
God: I'm having a wedding.
Us: Who's invited?
God: Anyone that wants to come...
Matthew 22
22And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, *take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Note it says good and bad were gathered. May were called to the wedding, but only few were chosen to attend.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/22/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
So Paul (and the HOLY SPIRIT) used that Malachi 1:2 out of context?
JEE-
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
It is right there. How it it out of context? God chose Jacob over Esau for the fact alone, that the purpose of His election would stand. This election has nothing to do with the men, but God alone. The quote from Malachi is used as proof that God's election and provision stood with Jacob and not Esau.
In the original context, Malachi seems to clearly NOT be saying Esau was HATED from all eternity, but rather that Esau was completely deserving of God's rejection.
John,
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
Are you saying Paul is wrong when he speaks of God's election here?
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/22/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
So Paul (and the HOLY SPIRIT) used that Malachi 1:2 out of context?
JEE-
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
It is right there. How it it out of context? God chose Jacob over Esau for the fact alone, that the purpose of His election would stand. This election has nothing to do with the men, but God alone. The quote from Malachi is used as proof that God's election and provision stood with Jacob and not Esau.
In the original context, Malachi seems to clearly NOT be saying Esau was HATED from all eternity, but rather that Esau was completely deserving of God's rejection.
John,
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
Are you saying Paul is wrong when he speaks of God's election here?
No, I'm saying YOUR interpretation of the passage needs work. If you are fine with Paul taking an OT verse out of context to support his argument, then I guess you're fine with it. I'm not. I agree that "the older shall serve the younger," but that has nothing directly to do with Esau being hated, if we are faithful to the original meaning of Malachi 1:2.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/22/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
So Paul (and the HOLY SPIRIT) used that Malachi 1:2 out of context?
JEE-
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
It is right there. How it it out of context? God chose Jacob over Esau for the fact alone, that the purpose of His election would stand. This election has nothing to do with the men, but God alone. The quote from Malachi is used as proof that God's election and provision stood with Jacob and not Esau.
In the original context, Malachi seems to clearly NOT be saying Esau was HATED from all eternity, but rather that Esau was completely deserving of God's rejection.
John,
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."* 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
Are you saying Paul is wrong when he speaks of God's election here?
No, I'm saying YOUR interpretation of the passage needs work. If you are fine with Paul taking an OT verse out of context to supporting his argument, then I guess you're fine with it. I'm not. I agree that "the older shall serve the younger," but that has nothing directly to do with Esau being hated, if we are faithful to the original meaning of Malachi 1:2.
John,
How do YOU interpret: 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)? and Why did Paul use it here when speaking of election?
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/22/2004 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John,
How do YOU interpret: 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)? and Why did Paul use it here when speaking of election?
It is saying God has the sovereign right to choose whom He will in order to carry out His purposes (in this case, which NATION of people, Esau or Jacob, will be the chosen people of God and thus inherit the promise made to Abraham).
My point is that, "Esau I have hated," in the original context of Malachi 1:2, refers to what Esau (as a nation) had done to merit God's displeasure.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
JEE, are we perhaps going beyond the text? Malachi 1:2 says nothing about anything that Edom did to merit God's displeasure, NOTHING.
Obadiah's prophecy against Edom contains some of the reasons God had for His displeasure with Edom:
Obadiah 1:6 arrogance of heart
Obadiah 1:10 their violence to brother Jacob
Obadiah 1:11 assistance of others entering Jerusalem and carrying off Jacob's wealth
Obadiah 1:12 gloating over Jacob's destruction
Obadiah 1:13 looting brother Jacob
Obadiah 1:14 cutting down and imprisoning the survivors
.
.
.
There's probably more, but a minute of searching found this.
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/22/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Jee-- Why not? And I still don't see in the text that you appealed to, that the reason for Edom's destruction was her own rebellion. Where I might be prone to agree with you, I still would like to see where in this selection of verses you get such an idea.
And, was Edom's rebellion against God any worse than Israel's rebellion against God? If yes, show me in Scripture. If no, then why did God choose to crush and continue to crush Edom and not Israel?
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/23/2004 3:20 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
In any case, one cannot reasonably argue from Malachi (written centuries after the original Esau had been born) that this proves unconditional election of individuals to salvation.
John-
I am not speaking of individual election towards salvation, that is addressed elsewhere in scripture. This is an example given by Paul concerning God's election by His choice alone, without any imput from man. Both nations rebelled against God, but only Israel will rule with Christ during the millennial kingdom of the Messiah. Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated, speaks of God's favor towards Israel. Malachi 1 speaks more of Israel's rebellion then Edom's, but it also clearly speaks of how Edom will be desolate during the reign of the Messiah (Mal. 1:4), whereas Israel will be exalted (Mal. 1:5). And why? Because of God's election alone.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/24/2004 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by borg
JEE- could God have chosen any nation to make a covenant with them?
Scripture and Reason require us to admit that, by definition, an almighty God acts freely in all He does (always in keeping with His character--which is why God "cannot" sin--it is contrary to His character).
So God's choices are influenced by His perfect character?
I'm not sure I would phrase it that way. I'll have to think about it a bit. In my understanding, choices make up character, and one's ultimate choice (voluntary disposition/devotion) to good or evil determines all one's subordinate and executive choices which follow.
For example, I absolutely LOVE my wife and daughter; therefore, all I do (subordinate and executive choices) flow from that basic or ultimate choice. I work my job to earn a living to serve the ultimate end of providing for my wife and daughter. Everything I do is determined by this one ultimate intention/choice. In the same way, everything God does is consistent with his ultimate intention; to wit, (I just love saying "to wit"; it sounds so old-fashioned) because He so LOVED the world, he gave his only Son for the redemption thereof. Because all his actions (executive choices) are governed by this one presiding motive (or ultimate intention), the Bible says, "righteous and true are ALL your ways, O Lord God almighty."
I would agree that God is able to be influenced to some degree by the actions of other moral agents (whether sinful or righteous deeds), and of course all his decisions are informed by his own perfect perception of reality and morality and his perfect ability to deliberate, but the problem I have with saying God's choices are "influenced by His perfect character" is that it sounds as if God does some things unconsciously or virtually automatically, which I definitely would not agree with, for I affirm God's perfect knowledge of reality, including his own self-perception.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/24/2004 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
For example, I absolutely LOVE my wife and daughter; therefore, all I do (subordinate and executive choices) flow from that basic or ultimate choice. I work my job to earn a living to serve the ultimate end of providing for my wife and daughter. Everything I do is determined by this one ultimate intention/choice. In the same way, everything God does is consistent with his ultimate intention; to wit, (I just love saying "to wit"; it sounds so old-fashioned) because He so LOVED the world, he gave his only Son for the redemption thereof. Because He all his actions (executive choices) are governed by this one presiding motive (or ultimate intention), the Bible says, "righteous and true are ALL your ways, O Lord God almighty."
I like how you worded this. I would agree with you in that God has displayed His love for the world by giving His only begotten Son.
quote:
I would agree that God is able to be influenced to some degree by the actions of other moral agents (whether sinful or righteous deeds), and of course all his decisions are informed by his own perfect perception of reality and morality and his perfect ability to deliberate, but the problem I have with saying God's choices are "influenced by His perfect character" is that it sounds as if God does some things unconsciously or virtually automatically, which I definitely would not agree with, for I affirm God's perfect knowledge of reality, including his own self-perception
With my statement, I was looking more at the cause and effect of choice. Does God's perfect character (cause) affect the choices (effect) He makes concerning His creation?
Do you feel that most of God's decisions are made on the spot, based only on the reality of the moment when looking at the influence of moral agents?
quote:
I'm not sure I would phrase it that way. I'll have to think about it a bit. In my understanding, choices make up character, and one's ultimate choice (voluntary disposition/devotion) to good or evil determines all one's subordinate and executive choices which follow.
How does one make the ultimate choice towards good or evil? Does this choice have influences toward either direction? Using your example of family. There were influences that led me to meeting my wife. There are reasons why I grew to love her. My ultimate choice to love her is influenced by her, just as I would choose not to like someone for other reasons. I also would think that the fact that God formed woman out of man, and they become one flesh, has much to do with influencing a marriage relationship.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/24/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
With my statement, I was looking more at the cause and effect of choice. Does God's perfect character (cause) affect the choices (effect) He makes concerning His creation?
In my view, God himself (not his character) is the cause of His choices. The sum total of His moral choices make up his moral character. But I think most Christians would agree that God is not bound by a necessitated will. He is of all persons most free.
quote:
Do you feel that most of God's decisions are made on the spot, based only on the reality of the moment when looking at the influence of moral agents?
Having infinite intelligence and wisdom, which includes knowledge of all possibilities as well as all probabilities and certainties means that God is perfectly capable of anticipating any and all developments long before they occur. Therefore, I don't believe He ever has to make a decision "on the spot," as you say.
quote:
How does one make the ultimate choice towards good or evil?
To change one's ultimate choice is what the Bible calls repentance, or, "a change of heart." By "heart" I mean the ultimate choice, as in when Jesus says, "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."
quote:
Does this choice have influences toward either direction?
I would say that all of our choices have influences to some degree or another.
quote:
Using your example of family. There were influences that led me to meeting my wife. There are reasons why I grew to love her. My ultimate choice to love her is influenced by her, just as I would choose not to like someone for other reasons.
Actually, I should take it up one more level, to God. When one's ultimate choice is to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, God is very much able to lead us by his Spirit to the right person to marry. (There is no violation of our free will in this, for we have already submitted ourselves to HIS will; therefore, whatever He decides is best, we are happy to receive it).
Now given that our heart is right with God, and we are living benevolently by His Spirit towards our neighbor, it seems to me that we will, in God's time, be led by Him to the right partner (if it is God's will for us to be married, that is). This would theoretically work for both partners. At the risk of oversimplification, that is truly how I see this particular issue; it is certainly how things worked for my wife and me, and I was believing in the Open View before we even started dating, though she wasn't really sure about the Open View. I am very glad she was sure about me.
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/24/2004 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | "When one's ultimate choice is to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, God is very much able to lead us by his Spirit to the right person to marry."
Qs: Do you love God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Are you saying that one can change his ultimate choice from wretched to good? from death to life? from a heart of stone to heart of flesh? In other words, is repentance a "choice" that I can freely (I use the term losely, though i would like YOUR defintion of 'free'; or the Bible's) make (given your definition of repentance)?
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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