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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/24/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by borg
"When one's ultimate choice is to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, God is very much able to lead us by his Spirit to the right person to marry."
Qs: Do you love God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, and strength?
As far as I am able to tell, I have surrendered my life completely to Him, and seek to glorify Him in all I do. That does not mean that I have done anything meritorious of salvation, only that I have done what all men ought to do (love God instead of self). I am not ashamed to say that I love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. Don't you?
quote:
Are you saying that one can change his ultimate choice from wretched to good? from death to life? from a heart of stone to heart of flesh? In other words, is repentance a "choice" that I can freely (I use the term losely, though i would like YOUR defintion of 'free'; or the Bible's) make (given your definition of repentance)?
I'm saying that by the (prevenient) grace of God we are able to repent and believe, have a new heart, and be transformed from a sinner to a saint. This is one of the strongest themes of the New Testament.
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/24/2004 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Am I ashamed to say I love my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength? Not at all, if i truly did. However I do not, nor do i think it possible this side of heaven. For if every part of me "truly" loved God as it ought, then why do I sin? And not just sin, but habitually sin? If my mind truly loved God as it ought, why do i not take every thought captive? If my heart truly loved God as it ought, why do I so often give it away to other people or other things? If my soul truly loved God as it ought, why do i so often bow it do idols such as time, money, and the like? If my strength truly loved God as it ought, then why do i so often attempt to live on my own strength rather then always fully rely on His strength? No, I do not love God as I ought, most days I hate Him. But thanks be to Christ Jesus' grace, for I am not saved because of anything I did, I am not sustained by any work I do, but I am justified, sanctified, and made righteous based on anothers works.
Prevenient grace by this definition merely subtracts the INFINITE distance between us and Holy God by 1000 or 1000000 units. Which in reality means nothing, for we are still infinitley seperated from God. to dub God's "saving grace" as mere "prevenient grace" is to cheapen and lessen the glorious work of grace, the deepness, vastness, and splendour of it all. There is still a "gap" that the sinner is required to jump across in order to come to Jesus Christ. this is to make the true saving grace of Jehovah to no effect.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/24/2004 8:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Am I ashamed to say I love my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength? Not at all, if i truly did. However I do not, nor do i think it possible this side of heaven. For if every part of me "truly" loved God as it ought, then why do I sin? And not just sin, but habitually sin? If my mind truly loved God as it ought, why do i not take every thought captive? If my heart truly loved God as it ought, why do I so often give it away to other people or other things? If my soul truly loved God as it ought, why do i so often bow it do idols such as time, money, and the like? If my strength truly loved God as it ought, then why do i so often attempt to live on my own strength rather then always fully rely on His strength?
So God commands us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which He knows full well is impossible "this side of heaven?" The reason anyone sins is because they choose to, and do not avail themselves of the all-sufficient grace of God to resist temptation and overcome sin by faith in God's power:
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Jude 24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
1 John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Romans 6:14 Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
quote:
No, I do not love God as I ought, most days I hate Him.
Huh? Why do you hate God?
___________
You have misunderstood the concept of prevenient grace. It is not dubbing God's grace as ONLY prevenient grace; that is only one part of it. The Arminian view of soteriology that I hold expressly teaches that God's grace is prevenient prior to our justification, and then is justifying, sanctifying, and ultimately glorifying, and salvation is by grace through faith from start to finish. However, I affirm, with Arminianism, that grace is not irresistible. Again, it is no meritorious work to thankfully and worshipfully RECEIVE a GIFT from our most gracious Benefactor, Jesus Christ.
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/25/2004 12:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Ross- Of course I choose to hate God. God isn't twisting my arm saying, "Borg, today you're going to hate me and you have no say in it." I hate, because I choose to hate.
JEE- I wouldn't tend to disagree, if God's grace were all sufficient. I fail to see how you can think that it is all sufficient. It seems to be sitting on the sidelines waiting for us to "tap" into the mysteries and greatness of it. This isn't all sufficient; its a puny, weak, pathetic grace waiting on the mere decision of sinful man. And yes God commands us to do something that WE cannot do this side of heaven. For what we were powerless to do, Christ DID! What we couldn't do that God commanded from us, Christ did. He is our wisdom, righteousness, justification, sanctification and redemption. I don't see where you were going with all those verses, though they were good to read.
Why do I hate God? All of us hate God on a day to day basis. How do we show we love God? As Jesus Himself said, "If you love me, keep my commands." And yet looking back on your day, only the prideful, self-centered, ignorant person could ever say he managed to keep God's commands for the majority of the day. No instead we break them constantly, and by doing this, we are proving our selfish, carnal, fleshly hatred towards Jehovah.
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/26/2004 1:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Why do I hate God? All of us hate God on a day to day basis. How do we show we love God? As Jesus Himself said, "If you love me, keep my commands." And yet looking back on your day, only the prideful, self-centered, ignorant person could ever say he managed to keep God's commands for the majority of the day. No instead we break them constantly, and by doing this, we are proving our selfish, carnal, fleshly hatred towards Jehovah.
Interesting. Upon what scriptural basis do you make such assertions? Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments," and 1 John says, "his commandments are NOT burdensome." Jesus also says, "My yoke is easy and by burden is light." God's word says all who hate him love death, while those that love Him love life and receive it from Him.
It's always curious to me how those who claim to exalt God's grace to the point of "everything that happens is God's will" actually MOCK His grace by plainly implying that His grace is insufficient for us to overcome sin. Jesus came to "save his people FROM their sins." (Matt. 1:21). And yet apparently the Calvinist wants us to believe that we can't help but continue in sin all our days. What a low view of God's power that reflects.
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Dragon Chaser
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 9/26/2004 6:54 AM (GMT -6) | | God does not take over our motor skills and subconscious.
Ephesians 6:10-17
The Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Christianity is still a faith-based religion. If you receive the Holy Spirit and get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, still means you are a sinner, because you’re human. God doesn’t somehow make you a robot. We are all free agents and have minds and hearts of our own. But you have to remember the day you get baptized with the Holy Spirit you represent God and become a soldier for him. Jesus said to Peter, “you will defy me 3 times before the rooster crows.” The war against evil will exist until the last day. It’s just a simple fact of life.
John R. Heys | | Back to Top | | |
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the agape way
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 9/26/2004 1:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Dragon Chaser,
quote:
Christianity is still a faith-based religion. If you receive the Holy Spirit and get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, still means you are a sinner, because you’re human. God doesn’t somehow make you a robot. We are all free agents and have minds and hearts of our own. But you have to remember the day you get baptized with the Holy Spirit you represent God and become a soldier for him. Jesus said to Peter, “you will defy me 3 times before the rooster crows.” The war against evil will exist until the last day. It’s just a simple fact of life.
quote:
Posted by borg: "No, I do not love God as I ought, most days I hate Him."
If you read the book of Job, you’ll notice that God admired Job’s honesty. For when Job’s life went wrong he never gave up on God even though at times Job prayed to God using harsh words. In other words job was not phony.
That's true! But Job was also a righteous man, a fact recognized by both God and Job himself. To be righteous is to be declared to be in right-standing by God (justification), meaning one is in a real faith relationship with him. While such relationships are characterized by sincere honesty, they're also characterized by repentance from sin! In fact, one cannot truly be in a faith-relationship with God and in right-standing before him and not be in a state of repentance from all known sin. Job may have been mistaken in his theology, but he was not living in sin. While what borg said is indeed honest - and I commend him for it - a life of defeat in sin should not characterize the life of any Christian, for God gives us all the means to live above our fleshly desires and overcome all temptation (I'm not saying borg is living in sin, but just from his words he appears to think sin is inevitable). Because of God's all-sufficient grace through the Holy Spirit working in us (as well as through other Christians in our lives he's working through!), we can be victorious over sin! God has not left us alone to get through life - he knows if left to ourselves we would fall, without a doubt. That's why he gave us the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and puts people in our lives to help us live holy lives.
Yes, trials and suffering will come. We are in a spiritual war, and there are plenty of spiritual beings fighting for our hearts and minds - and this spiritual war frequently manifests itself in physical ways. We are to expect persecution and suffering if we are really living for Christ - it's all a part of living in a war-torn creation. But there's a big difference between living a persecuted life of physical, emotional and psychological suffering and living a life of utter defeat in sin, day after day. Now, I'm not saying we won't make mistakes (that's just a part of being human!). But a mistake is not a sin; sin is a deliberate selfish choice to rebel against God and his holy law. If anyone is living in sin, it doesn't have to be this way! Don't lose hope, and certainly don't think you can't be free from it! Ask God to help you overcome it, and find a brother or sister in Christ who can hold you accountable. We do not have to be in bondage to sin - the Holy Spirit can help you overcome sin in your life if you will only let him and trust that he can do it (because he can, and is more than willing to!)!
Peace and God bless,
Ron
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/26/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | John-
quote:
So God commands us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which He knows full well is impossible "this side of heaven?"
Paul states in Rom. 5:20 that "the law was added so that the trespass might increase." It is through the law that we know sin (Rom. 7:7). Gal. 3:11, "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law." God gave the law knowing full well we would not keep it. The law was put into place in order for us to see our inability and depend fully on God and His grace. Even though the law of God is written in our conscience, Paul still claims that no one seeks God, no one understands, there is no one who does good, etc. Only when God saves us and cuts away the flesh are we able to do that which God has prepared in advance for us to walk in (Eph. 2:10).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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the agape way
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 9/26/2004 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Lock,
God didn't give us the law because he knew we couldn't keep it and wanted to see us fail - that would be cruel and unjust. He gave us the law because the law is good for our highest well-being; it was given in the hopes that we would keep it, which could only be done from out of a faith-relationship with him! The law is only impossible to keep apart from a heart that is turned from self to God in faith, which is what God wants from each of us. For those who sought to keep it without first doing this, their failures should lead them to repentance and faith (which would thus enable them to keep it). For those who have, by faith, chosen to forsake their sins and devote themselve to God in love, the law is not burdensome, but is a delight to keep and comes quite naturally to them. The law demonstrates the futility of one's efforts to keep it without having first fully consecrated their heart to God and chosen him above all else - but it was given with the intention that it both could and would be kept by all. You said,
quote:
The law was put into place in order for us to see our inability and depend fully on God and His grace.
Yes, but this "depending fully on God and His grace" is precisely the faith-based attitude that springs from a heart that has chosen God and loves him, which enables one to keep the law, which is what God intended all along.
Peace and blessings,
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/26/2004 8:29 PM (GMT -6) | | "If you love Me you will keep My commands." What pride to actually say that we do keep His commands, for what does He command of us? "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength." If you truly loved the Lord, why do continue to sin. It disgusts me that so many take sin so lightly, so un-wretched to the point where they say of course I love God as I ought. What kind of pride does that breed. It's not about God's insufficient grace, it's about His sufficient grace; that despite all this, He can still say He loves me. It's not about some abstract passive grace that is simply waiting around for "the great" man to make up his decsion to follow Christ, but it is a grace that breaks down the barriers of sin and rejection. It's a grace that illuminates the sinner's mind so that they fall on their faces declaring their own wretchedness and unworth; and yet despite all this revel in the sufficient grace of Christ. This is easy, when you realize it's not about your works, not about your meritous salvation, but of God who shows mercy.
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/26/2004 9:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
"If you love Me you will keep My commands." What pride to actually say that we do keep His commands, for what does He command of us? "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength." If you truly loved the Lord, why do continue to sin.
Indeed. A prideful heart categorically excludes the possibility that one is truly loving God.
quote:
It disgusts me that so many take sin so lightly, so un-wretched to the point where they say of course I love God as I ought. What kind of pride does that breed.
First, I never said, "OF COURSE I love God as I ought." I simply said that as far as I am aware, my heart is fully his, I am presently in a state of happy, loving obedience to Him whom to know is life eternal, and as Paul said, "have a conscience void of offence towards God."
Second, I have repeatedly stated that we receive NOTHING from God by works, but only by FAITH do we receive the promises of God.
When God's word says He is able to keep me from falling, and when God's word says He has poured out his love in my heart abundantly by the Holy Spirit, and when God's word says that sin shall NOT be my master, for I am not under law but under grace, and yet those who would plead for sin would say "but you CAN'T really love God as you ought!!!", pardon me if I take God's word over theirs.
In His Grace,
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/26/2004 9:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
quote:
So God commands us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which He knows full well is impossible "this side of heaven?"
Paul states in Rom. 5:20 that "the law was added so that the trespass might increase." It is through the law that we know sin (Rom. 7:7). Gal. 3:11, "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law." God gave the law knowing full well we would not keep it. The law was put into place in order for us to see our inability and depend fully on God and His grace. Even though the law of God is written in our conscience, Paul still claims that no one seeks God, no one understands, there is no one who does good, etc. Only when God saves us and cuts away the flesh are we able to do that which God has prepared in advance for us to walk in (Eph. 2:10).
Backing up to the beginning of Romans, we see revealed in chs. 1, 2, & 3 that the reason no one seeks God is not because they have no ability to do so, but rather because they "did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," and therefore God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are inappropriate.
In other words, moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, or else Paul's argument in chapter 1 & 2 (laying the foundation for his damning conclusion that "all have sinned," that "no one seeks after God," and "that all men are WITHOUT excuse") is overturned at its very premise.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/26/2004 9:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Dragon Chaser:
If your post was addressed to me, you have misconstrued the issue of overcoming sin by God's power. It is not that God "takes over our motor skills and subconscious," it is rather than the grace of God working within us to perfect that which He began in us, can in fact be completely depended upon to perform that which God has clearly PROMISED He will do--make us (actually) more than conquerers (not merely fictitiously overcomers). Why would anyone want to continue in sin? Sin is what cost the Son of God his life, and what He came to deliver us FROM:
Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin. 35 And the slave abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
In Christ,
John
quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Chaser
God does not take over our motor skills and subconscious.
Ephesians 6:10-17
The Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Christianity is still a faith-based religion. If you receive the Holy Spirit and get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, still means you are a sinner, because you’re human. God doesn’t somehow make you a robot. We are all free agents and have minds and hearts of our own. But you have to remember the day you get baptized with the Holy Spirit you represent God and become a soldier for him. Jesus said to Peter, “you will defy me 3 times before the rooster crows.” The war against evil will exist until the last day. It’s just a simple fact of life.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/27/2004 3:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
quote:
So God commands us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which He knows full well is impossible "this side of heaven?"
Paul states in Rom. 5:20 that "the law was added so that the trespass might increase." It is through the law that we know sin (Rom. 7:7). Gal. 3:11, "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law." God gave the law knowing full well we would not keep it. The law was put into place in order for us to see our inability and depend fully on God and His grace. Even though the law of God is written in our conscience, Paul still claims that no one seeks God, no one understands, there is no one who does good, etc. Only when God saves us and cuts away the flesh are we able to do that which God has prepared in advance for us to walk in (Eph. 2:10).
Backing up to the beginning of Romans, we see revealed in chs. 1, 2, & 3 that the reason no one seeks God is not because they have no ability to do so, but rather because they "did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," and therefore God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are inappropriate.
In other words, moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, or else Paul's argument in chapter 1 & 2 (laying the foundation for his damning conclusion that "all have sinned," that "no one seeks after God," and "that all men are WITHOUT excuse") is overturned at its very premise.
John-
You do not address why man chooses to not retain the knowledge of God in their mind, or why they turn the truth into a lie or why they create a new god. Man sees the law of God, the standard for His glory, and in all his efforts is unable to keep it. Man then turns around and creates his own set of rules, creates his own god to worship, instead of relying on God's righteousness. Or in the case of the jews, instead of spiritually seeing the law as exposing sin and leading to faith in God's righteousness, they added their own traditions to "aid" their flesh in keeping the standard of the law, which Paul tells us is impossible. When it comes to eonian life (life during the 2 ages to come) these men will be held responsible for their actions.
Paul is an excellent example. As Saul he thought he was doing all that he was suppose to do in order to earn life during the coming age of the Messiah. It wasn't until God appeared to him, knocking him off his horse, was he able to spiritually access the truth. Paul, using hindsight, was able to write about man's inability while he is a helpless sinner, not seeking God or His righteousness, and the grace of God which saves him from this body of death.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/27/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It is not that God "takes over our motor skills and subconscious," it is rather than the grace of God working within us to perfect that which He began in us, can in fact be completely depended upon to perform that which God has clearly PROMISED He will do--make us (actually) more than conquerers (not merely fictitiously overcomers). Why would anyone want to continue in sin? Sin is what cost the Son of God his life, and what He came to deliver us FROM:
John-
God is not going to glorify the flesh and blood. We are to consider our fleshy body as crucified and buried with Christ, and now we are to walk in the newness of the spirit, as if reserrected with Christ. Now if we are to consider our bodies as already dead and buried, why would God have us strive to perfect our flesh? If you are striving to perfect your flesh, are you really free from the law? That was the message Paul had for the Galatians when they were trying to justify the flesh after being saved through faith. Gal. 5:5 "For we, in spirit, are awaiting the expectation of righteousness by faith"
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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the agape way
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 9/27/2004 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
It is not that external works are bad, it's just that such works, if not flowing from a faith-relationship with God from the heart, will put us back in bondage. I do not believe we are made perfect by the flesh or by works of the law, only by faith. But this faith should manifest itself in works of love and obedience. God justifies us and sanctifies us (and keeps us in this state) only through our faith in him, which should manifest itself in works of love, mercy and justice, etc. The Galatians were overlooking the fact that a faith-relationship is what continues to sanctify us, not merely external obediance to some law or ordinance. We are perfected only through faith, faith working by love. And faith and love are never passive, but always active.
Also, I don't believe our "flesh" is inherently sinful. Our natural bodies are not in themselves the enemy of God, or us. It is a certain mindset that is the enemy of God. While our bodies do not always function as they should and things are often "out of whack" because of the physical depravity we inherited from Adam, there is nothing morally wrong with them. It is the mindset that puts the gratification of our natural desires above the highest well-being and good of others and the world around us that is wrong and sinful. There is nothing morally wrong with our flesh - it is instead the selfish commitment to the gratifcation of our desires (whether physical, emotional, psychological, etc) at the expense of other people and God (and even our own highest good) that is morally wrong. This cannot be overcome by simply "cutting away" our fleshs, but must be overcome by the Spirit's moral influence on our hearts and minds persuading us to make different choices (or rather a different choice, singular) regarding our flesh and God. God cannot correct a spiritual/moral problem with a physical solution, but must seek to influence us spiritually/morally, using reason, etc. When we crucify our flesh, we are making a choice to set our minds on the Spirit and the things of the Spirit, being persuaded by the Spirit's influence. Instead of allowing our bodily appetites to control us, we control and master them through faith in Christ, and use our members to serve God and others, furthering God's kingdom on earth.
Just my thoughts.
Ron
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/27/2004 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Ron-
Rom. 8:5-8
"For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit. For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God."
Then Paul turns around and says (Rom. 8:9) "Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making a home in you."
quote:
Also, I don't believe our "flesh" is inherently sinful. Our natural bodies are not in themselves the enemy of God, or us. It is a certain mindset that is the enemy of God.
Rom. 7:18, 19
"For I am aware that good is not making a home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not."
Paul claims that we know what is right and we "will" to do it, but we end up doing that which we hate, and the effect is sin makes it's home in us (Rom. 7:20). In verse 23 Paul states that even though the law of God is in his mind, he observes a different law in his members, which wars with the law of his mind, and leads him into captivity to the law of sin, which is in his members. What will save us from this body of death? Grace.
I would agree that our flesh is not "inherently sinful", but Paul clearly states that there is a different law within our members which wars against the law of God in our minds, and we observe the law within our members which lead us captive to sin. Even though the flesh, along with the desires that accompany it, are not in themselves sinful, they are emnity to God (see above Rom. 8:7) and anything that leads us away from God will lead us into sin. Christ, in the likeness of sinful flesh, condemned sin in His flesh, by dying on the cross. We are to reckon ourselves as dying with Him, that is our flesh. Now being lead by the spirit of God, as if resurrected with Christ, we can walk in newness of spirit.
quote:
God cannot correct a spiritual/moral problem with a physical solution, but must seek to influence us spiritually/morally, using reason, etc.
This is exactly what God will do when He resurrects us. 1 Cor. 15:53 "for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." Earlier in this same chapter Paul states the difference between the first Adam and the Second Adam (Christ). Adam became a living soul, Christ became a life-giving spirit, resurrection is sown in a soulish body, roused in a spiritual body (15:42-46). We are to walk now as if this has already taken place in Christ Jesus in newness of the spirit.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Dragon Chaser
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 9/27/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Dear Dragon Chaser:
If your post was addressed to me, you have misconstrued the issue of overcoming sin by God's power. It is not that God "takes over our motor skills and subconscious," it is rather than the grace of God working within us to perfect that which He began in us, can in fact be completely depended upon to perform that which God has clearly PROMISED He will do--make us (actually) more than conquerers (not merely fictitiously overcomers). Why would anyone want to continue in sin? Sin is what cost the Son of God his life, and what He came to deliver us FROM:
Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin. 35 And the slave abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
In Christ,
John
Hello JEE,
Everyone falls short of God because we are not God. Jesus Christ is God and he’s the example we must follow, because he was free from sin. Hence forth, Jesus’ love of the Father reflected back at him. If someone truly has the love of God in their hearts obviously, that person does not want to sin. Let’s say for instance you are falling in love with your neighbor’s wife and want to lay down with her. If you truly loved God with all your heart you would feel convicted and repent. But on the other hand if you don’t love God, you could say forget you God, I want to have fun. The power of God is the love that is reflected back at you. Jesus was tempted many times by Satan but he over came sin because of the love and faith he had for the Father.
Everything is a test on this Earth and the Holy Spirit is a guide and a helper, but you must seek God your self. You are solely accountable for your actions.
I hope this helps,
John R. Heys | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/27/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
quote:
So God commands us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which He knows full well is impossible "this side of heaven?"
Paul states in Rom. 5:20 that "the law was added so that the trespass might increase." It is through the law that we know sin (Rom. 7:7). Gal. 3:11, "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law." God gave the law knowing full well we would not keep it. The law was put into place in order for us to see our inability and depend fully on God and His grace. Even though the law of God is written in our conscience, Paul still claims that no one seeks God, no one understands, there is no one who does good, etc. Only when God saves us and cuts away the flesh are we able to do that which God has prepared in advance for us to walk in (Eph. 2:10).
Backing up to the beginning of Romans, we see revealed in chs. 1, 2, & 3 that the reason no one seeks God is not because they have no ability to do so, but rather because they "did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," and therefore God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are inappropriate.
In other words, moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, or else Paul's argument in chapter 1 & 2 (laying the foundation for his damning conclusion that "all have sinned," that "no one seeks after God," and "that all men are WITHOUT excuse") is overturned at its very premise.
John-
You do not address why man chooses to not retain the knowledge of God in their mind,
Romans 1 says it is because they did not LIKE to retain the knowledge of God in their minds. Everyone sins because they do not WISH to obey God.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/27/2004 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
quote:
So God commands us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which He knows full well is impossible "this side of heaven?"
Paul states in Rom. 5:20 that "the law was added so that the trespass might increase." It is through the law that we know sin (Rom. 7:7). Gal. 3:11, "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law." God gave the law knowing full well we would not keep it. The law was put into place in order for us to see our inability and depend fully on God and His grace. Even though the law of God is written in our conscience, Paul still claims that no one seeks God, no one understands, there is no one who does good, etc. Only when God saves us and cuts away the flesh are we able to do that which God has prepared in advance for us to walk in (Eph. 2:10).
Backing up to the beginning of Romans, we see revealed in chs. 1, 2, & 3 that the reason no one seeks God is not because they have no ability to do so, but rather because they "did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," and therefore God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are inappropriate.
In other words, moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, or else Paul's argument in chapter 1 & 2 (laying the foundation for his damning conclusion that "all have sinned," that "no one seeks after God," and "that all men are WITHOUT excuse") is overturned at its very premise.
John-
You do not address why man chooses to not retain the knowledge of God in their mind,
Romans 1 says it is because they did not LIKE to retain the knowledge of God in their minds. Everyone sins because they do not WISH to obey God.
Why do they wish to not obey God? Why do they choose to not retain the knowledge of God in their minds?
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