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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/27/2004 10:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
It is not that God "takes over our motor skills and subconscious," it is rather than the grace of God working within us to perfect that which He began in us, can in fact be completely depended upon to perform that which God has clearly PROMISED He will do--make us (actually) more than conquerers (not merely fictitiously overcomers). Why would anyone want to continue in sin? Sin is what cost the Son of God his life, and what He came to deliver us FROM:
John-
God is not going to glorify the flesh and blood. We are to consider our fleshy body as crucified and buried with Christ, and now we are to walk in the newness of the spirit, as if reserrected with Christ. Now if we are to consider our bodies as already dead and buried, why would God have us strive to perfect our flesh?
This assumes what I have not affirmed. I agree we cannot please God in our flesh (obeying/minding the flesh). Paul says "but you are NOT in the flesh, if the Spirit of Christ is within you."
This is where we agree. Where we disagree is you think that man in his irreverent state, when confronted with God's grace, is able to humble himself and choose to accept God's gift, then God saves us and His spirit makes its home in us. I believe that God saves us and then through the conviction of the spirit we are able to see that we were helpless in our irreverent state and was in need of God's grace. A person may hear and know about the gift of God's grace, but not recieve it. Only when lead by the spirit of God will a person recieve the things of God. We know of our past helplessness only by hindsight. The people of Israel in the time of Jesus had a knowledge of God and His word, but they did not accept Jesus and what He spoke about the kingdom of heaven. Why?
Matt. 13
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
According to what you are saying, this would be unfair. The disciples were given a clear advantage over the rest of the people. How can God fairly judge them being that the mysteries of the kingdom was not given to them to understand? Jesus explained the parables to His disciples but not the people, is this fair?
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/27/2004 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
It is not that God "takes over our motor skills and subconscious," it is rather than the grace of God working within us to perfect that which He began in us, can in fact be completely depended upon to perform that which God has clearly PROMISED He will do--make us (actually) more than conquerers (not merely fictitiously overcomers). Why would anyone want to continue in sin? Sin is what cost the Son of God his life, and what He came to deliver us FROM:
John-
God is not going to glorify the flesh and blood. We are to consider our fleshy body as crucified and buried with Christ, and now we are to walk in the newness of the spirit, as if reserrected with Christ. Now if we are to consider our bodies as already dead and buried, why would God have us strive to perfect our flesh?
This assumes what I have not affirmed. I agree we cannot please God in our flesh (obeying/minding the flesh). Paul says "but you are NOT in the flesh, if the Spirit of Christ is within you."
This is where we agree. Where we disagree is you think that man in his irreverent state, when confronted with God's grace, is able to humble himself and choose to accept God's gift, then God saves us and His spirit makes its home in us.
What you have described is not my view. I affirm that without the drawing of the Holy Spirit (prevenient grace), no one will choose to humble himself and choose to accept God's gift. Indeed, the gift cannot even be KNOWN as an object to choose without the prevenient grace of God revealing it to him.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/27/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Where do these selfish interests arise from?
In the paradigm that I find most agreeable to Scripture, Reason, & Experience (Theology of God's Moral Government), selfishness is engendered by means of the physical depravity (lack of perfect health and mental capacity as a result of the Fall), which powerfully incites the desire for self-preservation in the developing infant. However, as "by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin," these desires do not become ACTUALLY sinful until the child gains an understanding of right and wrong (the dawn of moral accountability, which varies from person to person, but generally is quite early in the child's mental development), and CHOOSES to do that which he KNOWS (by the law) to be forbidden.
For instance, it is a natural, God-given thing to desire food; this desire does not in and of itself equal sin, though it becomes the occasion of sin when one chooses to indulge the desire for food in a way that is contrary to the law (i.e., gluttony).
The same is true of all our natural desires--the desires themselves are only the occasion of sin, not sinful in themselves, for sin is a transgression of (willful choice to violate) the law (1 John 3:4) and "by the law is the knowledge of sin."
That said, the scriptures do speak of "evil desires," which are clearly a mental desire for that which one KNOWS to be forbidden (such as the desire for a woman who is not one's wife, as Jesus refers to in the Sermon on the Mount). In this case, the desire itself is sinful, because one KNOWS what one wants is forbidden (unlawful).
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Dragon Chaser
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 9/27/2004 3:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Chaser
Hello JEE,
Everyone falls short of God because we are not God. Jesus Christ is God and he’s the example we must follow, because he was free from sin.
So God should have said, "Ooops!" instead of "Very good!" when he had finished fashioning Adam in His image.
John
I totally disagree. I’m happy God did not create humans like he did ants. God gave us human creatures a character, conscious, free will and a soul. What JEE just posted was the first sin.
The prohibition is as much an act of god’s love as the provision is. For God knows we can only enjoy the provision when we honor the prohibition. God knows we can only live fully as human beings when we honor his holiness, which means his distinctness from us, his “otherness.” And the primary way we honor the difference between God and us is to acknowledge that we are not the ultimate moral judges. He is the one and only “judge of the Earth” (Gen 18:25). Our role as God’s creatures is to receive, enjoy and reflect our Creator’s love and goodness as we exercise the authority o the Earth he entrusted to us. But we can’t do this if we try and be wise like God, “knowing good and evil.” To fully reflect God’s image in the way he intended, we must resist the serpent’s temptation to be “like God” in the way God has forbidden (Gen 3:5).
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/27/2004 4:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Chaser
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Chaser
Hello JEE,
Everyone falls short of God because we are not God. Jesus Christ is God and he’s the example we must follow, because he was free from sin.
So God should have said, "Ooops!" instead of "Very good!" when he had finished fashioning Adam in His image.
John
I totally disagree.
The conclusion I made would follow from the premise that man is unable to obey God as he ought.
quote:
I’m happy God did not create humans like he did ants. God gave us human creatures a character, conscious, free will and a soul. What JEE just posted was the first sin.
I'm not following you on this. How was what I just posted the first sin?
quote:
The prohibition is as much an act of god’s love as the provision is. For God knows we can only enjoy the provision when we honor the prohibition. God knows we can only live fully as human beings when we honor his holiness, which means his distinctness from us, his “otherness.” And the primary way we honor the difference between God and us is to acknowledge that we are not the ultimate moral judges. He is the one and only “judge of the Earth” (Gen 18:25). Our role as God’s creatures is to receive, enjoy and reflect our Creator’s love and goodness as we exercise the authority o the Earth he entrusted to us. But we can’t do this if we try and be wise like God, “knowing good and evil.” To fully reflect God’s image in the way he intended, we must resist the serpent’s temptation to be “like God” in the way God has forbidden (Gen 3:5).
Ah, the old TOKOG&E vs. TOL, "love, not judgment" approach. The problem is, the full revelation of God's will for us, the New Testament, explictly EXHORTS believers to develop discernment between good and evil; specifically, in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus tells us to look out for false prophets, and "by their fruit you shall know them."
Heb. 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
3 John 11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.
Romans 3:8 Why not say–as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say–"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
And so it would appear that Scripture knows nothing of this supposed dichotomy between "love and judgment" so often trumpeted by Bonhoefferites on this website. If in this fallen world it is unloving to discern good from evil, then how can God himself ever judge the world?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/28/2004 3:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Where do these selfish interests arise from?
In the paradigm that I find most agreeable to Scripture, Reason, & Experience (Theology of God's Moral Government), selfishness is engendered by means of the physical depravity (lack of perfect health and mental capacity as a result of the Fall), which powerfully incites the desire for self-preservation in the developing infant. However, as "by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin," these desires do not become ACTUALLY sinful until the child gains an understanding of right and wrong (the dawn of moral accountability, which varies from person to person, but generally is quite early in the child's mental development), and CHOOSES to do that which he KNOWS (by the law) to be forbidden.
For instance, it is a natural, God-given thing to desire food; this desire does not in and of itself equal sin, though it becomes the occasion of sin when one chooses to indulge the desire for food in a way that is contrary to the law (i.e., gluttony).
The same is true of all our natural desires--the desires themselves are only the occasion of sin, not sinful in themselves, for sin is a transgression of (willful choice to violate) the law (1 John 3:4) and "by the law is the knowledge of sin."
That said, the scriptures do speak of "evil desires," which are clearly a mental desire for that which one KNOWS to be forbidden (such as the desire for a woman who is not one's wife, as Jesus refers to in the Sermon on the Mount). In this case, the desire itself is sinful, because one KNOWS what one wants is forbidden (unlawful).
These statements are agreeable. Now, when God takes away or deadens the flesh, with its desires (which are not sinful, but still enmity towards God; Rom. 8:7) through the death of Christ, and gives us His spirit, as opposed to the flesh, then we are able to recieve the things of God, for they are no longer stupidity to us.
quote:
What you have described is not my view. I affirm that without the drawing of the Holy Spirit (prevenient grace), no one will choose to humble himself and choose to accept God's gift. Indeed, the gift cannot even be KNOWN as an object to choose without the prevenient grace of God revealing it to him.
You have stated in different discussions that after this drawing of the spirit, one can choose to not accept God's gift. I disagree. I know there are verses of scripture which make it appear that one could be drawn by the spirit and still choose to "fall away". What needs to be noted is this is a part of the evangel to the Circumcision. The evangel of the Circumcision is as Jesus states, "many are called, but few are chosen." Those that have been "called" could still possibly "fall away". But, those who have been chosen will not "fall away" (i.e. John 17:5-26). The evangel of the Uncircumcision is as follows; (Rom. 8:30) "whom He desiginates beforehand, these He calls also, whom He calls, these He justifies also, now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." He designated beforehand whom He will call and justify and glorify. First God takes the flesh out of the equation by crucifying and burying it with Christ. Then, unhindered by the flesh, God, through His spirit, gives the necessary influences for a person to "accept" His grace. We believe because we are saved.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/28/2004 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
What you have described is not my view. I affirm that without the drawing of the Holy Spirit (prevenient grace), no one will choose to humble himself and choose to accept God's gift. Indeed, the gift cannot even be KNOWN as an object to choose without the prevenient grace of God revealing it to him.
You have stated in different discussions that after this drawing of the spirit, one can choose to not accept God's gift. I disagree. I know there are verses of scripture which make it appear that one could be drawn by the spirit and still choose to "fall away". What needs to be noted is this is a part of the evangel to the Circumcision. The evangel of the Circumcision is as Jesus states, "many are called, but few are chosen." Those that have been "called" could still possibly "fall away". But, those who have been chosen will not "fall away" (i.e. John 17:5-26). The evangel of the Uncircumcision is as follows; (Rom. 8:30) "whom He desiginates beforehand, these He calls also, whom He calls, these He justifies also, now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." He designated beforehand whom He will call and justify and glorify. First God takes the flesh out of the equation by crucifying and burying it with Christ. Then, unhindered by the flesh, God, through His spirit, gives the necessary influences for a person to "accept" His grace. We believe because we are saved.
I affirm, with SCRIPTURE, Reason, and Experience, that God's grace is able to be resisted, frustrated, and thwarted by human obstinance.
As to "we believe because we are saved," this is completely bassackwards to what the Bible itself says--"believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT be saved..." "Whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life..." etc.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/28/2004 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I affirm, with SCRIPTURE, Reason, and Experience, that God's grace is able to be resisted, frustrated, and thwarted by human obstinance.
Is this due to the requirement placed on salvation?
quote:
As to "we believe because we are saved," this is completely bassackwards to what the Bible itself says--"believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT be saved..." "Whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life..." etc.
These quotes simply state belief is necessary in salvation. A person must have faith in in order to be saved, I am not denying that. These quotes do not set out an order in which it happens. "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". Salvation exists whether a man thinks he chose to accept it or not. "God is reconciling the world through Christ", "The Lamb of God Who is taking away the sin of the world", "It is finished!". The price is paid, our salvation already exists. We are not to put forth "God's offer" for eonian life. We are to declare what God has done for the world through CHrist Jesus. God will bring all men, in due season, into the realization of what He has done through Christ Jesus, according to His divine purposes.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/28/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
I affirm, with SCRIPTURE, Reason, and Experience, that God's grace is able to be resisted, frustrated, and thwarted by human obstinance.
Is this due to the requirement placed on salvation?
I would not presume to question God's reasons for placing conditions on salvation.
quote:
As to "we believe because we are saved," this is completely bassackwards to what the Bible itself says--"believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT be saved..." "Whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life..." etc.
quote:
These quotes simply state belief is necessary in salvation. A person must have faith in in order to be saved, I am not denying that. These quotes do not set out an order in which it happens.
It is not clear how God could have stated the requirements for salvation any more clearly than "repent and believe the gospel" and "whoever believes shall not perish." The normal person, uninfluenced by presuppositional sophistry, would take Christ's statement at face value, and would not make a mockery of God's gracious call by saying, "But I CAN'T believe until you first regenerate me, Jesus!!!"
quote:
"while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". Salvation exists whether a man thinks he chose to accept it or not.
Actually, one's personal reception of the proferred gift of salvation is clearly required for salvation to become effectual for that person.
quote:
"God is reconciling the world through Christ",
And in the same chapter (2 Cor. 5), Paul says to the Corinthians, "we BESEECH you in Christ's stead, be YE reconciled to God." The reconciliation on God's part towards us is done; however, it's effects are not automatic, but must be received by faith by each individual.
quote:
"The Lamb of God Who is taking away the sin of the world",
And the condition of reception of the merits of this atoning sacrifice are plainly stated in Scripture: "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
quote:
"It is finished!". The price is paid, our salvation already exists.
Again, as the New Testament unequivocally demonstrates, personal reception of the gift is required.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/29/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It is not clear how God could have stated the requirements for salvation any more clearly than "repent and believe the gospel" and "whoever believes shall not perish." The normal person, uninfluenced by presuppositional sophistry, would take Christ's statement at face value, and would not make a mockery of God's gracious call by saying, "But I CAN'T believe until you first regenerate me, Jesus!!!"
John-
Don't feel bad. Nicodemus didn't understand the first time either.
John 3
There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
A person will repent and believe when being saved, but it is a product of the spirit.
quote:
Actually, one's personal reception of the proferred gift of salvation is clearly required for salvation to become effectual for that person.
A person's "acceptance" of salvation is a product of being saved.
quote:
And in the same chapter (2 Cor. 5), Paul says to the Corinthians, "we BESEECH you in Christ's stead, be YE reconciled to God." The reconciliation on God's part towards us is done; however, it's effects are not automatic, but must be received by faith by each individual.
Paul is declaring the evangel. Just as we are to declare the evangel to everyone, not knowing who has been designated beforehand to believe.
quote:
And the condition of reception of the merits of this atoning sacrifice are plainly stated in Scripture: "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Repentance is a product of salvation, not the reverse.
quote:
Again, as the New Testament unequivocally demonstrates, personal reception of the gift is required.
The bible calls it God's salvation because He alone chooses when and who will recieve it. Some will recieve during this current era, others will recieve at the end of the eons. All of the "requirements" for salvation are provided through the spirit when a person becomes a "new creation". Your interpretation of the New Testament unequivocally demonstrates, personal reception of the gift is required.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/29/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rossfadeinout
Hey Lock,
I'm sorry that my post seemed defensive. We seem to be talking past each other alot in these forums, but i appreciate that there are those who (like yourself) are not Open Theists but still participate in the discussion.
It seems that at the heart of John and my difficulty with your position is that you believe
1) all mankind is not enlightened by the Holy Spirit to have an opportunity to come to God in this life.
2) Only those who the Holy Spirit enlightens can come to God.
Therefore 3) those who are not enlightened by the Holy Spirit cannot come to God.
but 4) God punishes those who do not come to him.
Isn't (4) intuitively unjust?
I'm really trying to understand your position, so if you disagree with my understanding of your position please let me know.
Peace, Ross
Let's look at what I believe the course of mankind is, apart for the elect. God creates man. God allows man to choose his own way. Due to the weakness of the flesh (Satan does not help either) man cannot meet the standard of God's glory clearly set out by the law. Man devices even more evil in his heart and commits evil deeds. God, as a good parent would, judges man so that he can see the folly of his ways and his need for a Savior. The judgment is for the good of man, not just punitive or for God's pleasure. Man will then be in the second death for the eons of the eons, and then at the end of the eons, man will be made alive in Christ and God will be All in All.
Now the elect is chosen by God out of this evil age. The purpose of this elect is to display God's transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus in the oncoming ages (Eph. 2:7). Who is this being displayed for? It depends on who you are. If you are of the elect of the Circumcision then you will live and reign with Christ on Earth, the elect being the example for the living nations still on earth whom Christ is reigning over with an iron club (Rev. 19:15). If you are part of the elect of the Uncircumcision, you are an example in the celestials (Eph. 2:6) and are displayed to sovereignty and authority and power and lordship among the celestials (Eph. 3:10).
It is not unjust, becaue we have nothing to do with it. It is all according to God's purposes and sovereign election, which He purposes within Himself before times eonian.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/29/2004 5:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
It is not clear how God could have stated the requirements for salvation any more clearly than "repent and believe the gospel" and "whoever believes shall not perish." The normal person, uninfluenced by presuppositional sophistry, would take Christ's statement at face value, and would not make a mockery of God's gracious call by saying, "But I CAN'T believe until you first regenerate me, Jesus!!!"
John-
Don't feel bad. Nicodemus didn't understand the first time either.
Such manifest hubris greatly lessens my desire to interact further with you, lock.
How is my comment different then yours; "but I can't believe until you first regenerate me Jesus!!!"?
The fact still stands that Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again in order to enter the kingdom, and Jesus Himself made the distinction between being born of flesh and being born of spirit.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/29/2004 8:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
It is not clear how God could have stated the requirements for salvation any more clearly than "repent and believe the gospel" and "whoever believes shall not perish." The normal person, uninfluenced by presuppositional sophistry, would take Christ's statement at face value, and would not make a mockery of God's gracious call by saying, "But I CAN'T believe until you first regenerate me, Jesus!!!"
John-
Don't feel bad. Nicodemus didn't understand the first time either.
Such manifest hubris greatly lessens my desire to interact further with you, lock.
How is my comment different then yours; "but I can't believe until you first regenerate me Jesus!!!"?
Because I was not attempting to insult you by that, while you obviously were.
quote:
The fact still stands that Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again in order to enter the kingdom, and Jesus Himself made the distinction between being born of flesh and being born of spirit.
This is beside the point of whether or not a person is able to make moral choices. I agree that no one can enter the kingdom without being born again. I also agree that the flesh profits nothing, but the Spirit gives life. Again, these facts are beside the point with regard to moral responsibility. Do you honestly believe that Hitler simply couldn't help himself when he choose to murder millions of unarmed civilians in WWII?
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