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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/1/2004 11:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | What do you think of the following message by Dutch Sheets? He makes several claims:
quote:
- Do not make the fatal mistake of laying the results of this election solely on the will and sovereignty of God.
- We must not allow a faulty theology that simply says “we have asked God to intervene, the rest is up to Him” to give us a false sense of security.
- By those who understand the principles of spiritual warfare, there is a kingdom force that must be employed in the spirit until the powers of darkness yield to the forces of light (Daniel 10:12-14; Matthew 11:12; Ephesians 6:12). There is a binding and loosing that must occur until confusion reigns in the enemy's camp (Matthew 16:18 -19).
- God must have a man in office who seeks His face.
Are these claims made by Dutch Sheets true? I believe that these claims should be considered in light of the various discussion on the "modern prophets" and the "Christianity vs. Civil govt" sermons of Dr. Boyd.
Spen
http://www.dutchsheets.org/index2.html
Prayer Alert
October 28, 2004
Dear Friends,
Up until now the Holy Spirit has not led me to issue a call to prayer for this year's elections, as I did in 2000 (others have done so and many are praying). That began to change this morning as I sensed clearly that the warfare over this election went to another level—big time! As it was in 2000, it is an all-out war in the spirit realm for the soul of this nation and I sense in my spirit that we have not yet broken through into victory. If we lose this war—and make no mistake, we can lose it if at any point we yield to apathy, overconfidence, weariness, or anything else that might cause us to not finish well—the results will be devastating.
Do not make the fatal mistake of laying the results of this election solely on the will and sovereignty of God. As He did in 2000, God is requiring a partnership with the praying church in order for righteousness to prevail. We must not allow a faulty theology that simply says “we have asked God to intervene, the rest is up to Him” to give us a false sense of security. Sometimes asking is all that is necessary, sometimes not. In this battle it absolutely is not. Just as when Israel did not possess Canaan, and also when Jerusalem missed a visitation from Heaven in Christ's day, God's will alone will not decide this election (Hebrews 3:18-19; Luke 19:44). In 1963 we forfeited God's will by removing His influence from our schools; in 1973 we missed God's will by allowing abortion to be legalized. And make no mistake about it, our lack of action at this point in time can cause us to miss God's will and send us spiraling downward again.
We must move into spiritual warfare now as never before. There is a persistence that must be exercised, striking the ground until complete victory is assured (2 Kings 13:14 -19). By those who understand the principles of spiritual warfare, there is a kingdom force that must be employed in the spirit until the powers of darkness yield to the forces of light (Daniel 10:12-14; Matthew 11:12; Ephesians 6:12). There is a binding and loosing that must occur until confusion reigns in the enemy's camp (Matthew 16:18 -19). The kingdom rule and will of God must be released in intercession and declaration until Heaven's desires prevail on earth (Matthew 6:10 ).
Don't let up. Intensify! The next 3 days will determine the fate of America for decades—maybe forever. Also, I believe the purposes of God in many nations are at stake, not the least of which is a great harvest of souls around the world.
Take some radical steps. I am changing my schedule and going to Washington DC for the next 3 days in order to pray in the way I believe the Lord is leading me. Though this is not practical for most of you, here are some suggestions for the final 3 days leading up to this election:
• Fast . Some are already fasting; I am asking for thousands more to join them. Ask God to lead you as to what kind of fast, and use wisdom concerning medical factors.
• Join together in prayer meetings and prayer services : the prayer of agreement is powerful—use it.
• Turn Sunday school classes into prayer meetings.
• Take time in Sunday services this week for prayer.
• Have special prayer services Saturday, Sunday, or Monday nights.
• Move home/cell groups to Saturday, Sunday, or Monday nights and devote them to prayer.
• Do prayer “conference calls” with friends and prayer partners.
• Get up earlier than usual and pray before beginning other activities.
• If possible, do a night watch—get up through the night and pray; or pull an “all nighter” if you feel the strength to do so.
• Pray Isaiah 22:22!
• Send this prayer alert to every praying Christian that you know. Please give it to your pastor far enough in advance of Sunday's services so that he can plan.
Finally, this is not a partisan issue; it is simply a righteousness issue. God must have a man in office who seeks His face. If all of us do our part, we will prevail in this election and see America take another turn toward righteousness and revival.
For His Cause,
Dutch Sheets
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/1/2004 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake,
Whether Greg Boyd or Dutch Sheets preaches about praying in order to do spiritual battle... I do believe we are to be prayer warriors. The physical world we live in is only one dimension of what is going on. Jesus tells us there is a heavenly battle. We are to pray without ceasing. Pray in order to invite God in "Your will be done"
Even many atheists pray when the going gets tough. Why? Because sometimes we need to put our hope into something beyond ourselves. "Do not let your hearts be troubled trust in God, trust also in me: John 14:1 There is such a tension felt this election, such a split, that I believe we ALL need to pray.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/1/2004 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Spenlake,
Whether Greg Boyd or Dutch Sheets preaches about praying in order to do spiritual battle... I do believe we are to be prayer warriors. The physical world we live in is only one dimension of what is going on. Jesus tells us there is a heavenly battle. We are to pray without ceasing. Pray in order to invite God in "Your will be done"
Even many atheists pray when the going gets tough. Why? Because sometimes we need to put our hope into something beyond ourselves. "Do not let your hearts be troubled trust in God, trust also in me: John 14:1 There is such a tension felt this election, such a split, that I believe we ALL need to pray.
Quest,
I do believe that we should pray, and pray for our government and our leaders.I believe that we should pray. 1 Timothy 2 states this clearly, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity."I don't dispute that we are to pray, we are commanded to pray for our leaders. What I dispute is the claims that Mr. Sheets has made in his message.
Spen Lake
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 11/3/2004 4:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Is there something UNBIBLICAL about Sheets statements?
I personally can't see anything he said that went against Scripture. On the contrary, it seems to me that what he says can be Scripturally supported.
Bear in mind that I am NOT one of those who advocates the extreme teachings that came out of the SW Movement (binding principalities over regions, spiritual mapping, and all that jazz) but the Bible is clear that there is a warfare going on and that believers have a part to play in it and our cooperation or lack thereof determine victory or defeat.
The problem that I see with those who advocate a teaching of meticulous sovereignty is that they can become laxadaisical, thinking that any outcome is the will of God. Yet, even an extreme Calvinist like A. W. Pink once wrote, "... the present government of this world by God is, in large measure, affected and determined by the actions of men (His own people included), so that in this life they are, to a very considerable extent, made to reap according as they sow, both in spirituals and in temporals." (From his book, Practical Christianity).
God's people have a part to play in these things through our votes and our prayers/intercessions. The Bible seems to teach this very thing (Ezekial 22:30). Therefore I find nothing wrong with Dutch Sheets statements.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/3/2004 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Victory: Is there something UNBIBLICAL about Sheets statements?
I personally can't see anything he said that went against Scripture. On the contrary, it seems to me that what he says can be Scripturally supported.
Bear in mind that I am NOT one of those who advocates the extreme teachings that came out of the SW Movement (binding principalities over regions, spiritual mapping, and all that jazz).
Spen: I believe, along with you, that God uses men's votes as a means to manifest the man He has chosen to give civil authority in the USA. What I dispute is the claims of Sheets which go to far and abuse the scriptures. His opening comment is anti-biblical and false, no matter how sincere he may be. "Up until now the Holy Spirit has not led me to issue a call to prayer for this year's elections, as I did in 2000." We find that we have already been issued a call by the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 2:1, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior." Perhaps he is only confused at how he should issue a call and is not concerned about the unequivical call that the Holy Spirit has already issued. At the very least I find it misguided as if he thinks that he is God's spokesperson as to tell us when we should pray, when God has already objectively commanded us to pray.
Victory, your comments above answer your own question on at least one point, binding and loosing principalities, etc. This is exactly the verse that Sheets uses in his proclamation "There is a binding and loosing that must occur until confusion reigns in the enemy's camp (Matthew 16:18 -19)." This is not a biblical use of "binding and loosing." This term was reserved by the rabinical leaders as what actions were "permitted or forbidden" under their traditions and laws. It has nothing to do with the concept that Sheets is promoting.
Do you believe that the scriptures quoted by Sheets in the following comments mean what he claims?
- By those who understand the principles of spiritual warfare, there is a kingdom force that must be employed in the spirit until the powers of darkness yield to the forces of light (Daniel 10:12-14; Matthew 11:12; Ephesians 6:12).
- God's will alone will not decide this election (Hebrews 3:18-19; Luke 19:44).
- There is a persistence that must be exercised, striking the ground until complete victory is assured (2 Kings 13:14 -19).
Where is the biblical support for statements such as:
- Sometimes asking is all that is necessary, sometimes not. In this battle it absolutely is not.
- God must have a man in office who seeks His face.
How does the claim, "God must have a man in office who seeks His face," square with the claims of Paul in Romans 12 and 13 (when Nero was on the throne)? Are we to believe that Nero sought the face of God while he burned his Christians as torches to light the way?
Spen Lake
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 11/3/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Spen: I believe, along with you, that God uses men's votes as a means to manifest the man He has chosen to give civil authority in the USA. What I dispute is the claims of Sheets which go to far and abuse the scriptures. His opening comment is anti-biblical and false, no matter how sincere he may be. "Up until now the Holy Spirit has not led me to issue a call to prayer for this year's elections, as I did in 2000." We find that we have already been issued a call by the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 2:1, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior."
I don't see how his remarks are in dispute with the passage. He did not discourage anyone from praying. He simply did not fell led of God's Spirit to initiate an international call to prayer to those who follow his ministry (I don't follow his ministry but I have never heard anything negative about him until now).
On the contrary he acknowledges that OTHERS have done what he himself did not feel led to do but NOW recognizes the need for. Therefore, I am not sure why you feel the need to critique him on this and condemn this opening statement as unbiblical. It seems like a hunt for heresy to me. I could be wrong about this but just as you are making an assumption about Sheets, I am doing the same about your critique of him.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Perhaps he is only confused at how he should issue a call and is not concerned about the unequivical call that the Holy Spirit has already issued.
I really do not see any confusion in his letter. I suppose that two human beings can read the same thing and get two totally different understandings of what is being said. As I read it, it seems that he sensed no leading to issue a worldwide call to those who follow his ministry to pray. He did not discourage individual prayer nor did he discourage pastors from calling their churches to pray.
He started off as not sensing any leading from his own ministry to issue such a call but now he senses the need to encourage this. Cannot see the big deal here.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
At the very least I find it misguided as if he thinks that he is God's spokesperson as to tell us when we should pray, when God has already objectively commanded us to pray.
Again, we are two individuals reading the same thing and getting different understandings.
Perhaps your understanding of "God's spokesperson" means that Sheets believes that all of the body of Christ is under his authority and the only one Sheets answers to is Jesus and everyone in the body must submit directly to him and go only through him to hear from God. Am I interpretting your assessment of "Sheets as God's spokesperson" correctly?
Whenever I get up in a pulpit on Sunday morning or a mid-week service or whatever, I believe that I am indeed God's spokeperson to those to whom I am addressing. Hopefully my hours of prayer and study before that time has prepared me to give the people a word from God. If I am not God's spokesperson when I am in the pulpit then I am doing nothing more than giving a fruitless lecture. Bill Clinton may as well be in the pulpit delivering a lecture from one of his speech writers.
However, I also consider myself as merely a mailman. I deliver the package and it is up to the listeners to accept or reject my words as being from God. As long as I say what I believe God would have me to say, that is the extent of my concern.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Sheets belief that he is God's spokesperson. On the contrary, I would not want to listen to any so-called preacher who does not have the confidence that what he/she is saying comes from God. So unless Sheets believes that he is the ONLY spokesperson for God and that all must bow at the sound of his voice (no indication of that in his letter) then I find nothing wrong nor unbiblical about believing such a thing.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Victory, your comments above answer your own question on at least one point, binding and loosing principalities, etc. This is exactly the verse that Sheets uses in his proclamation "There is a binding and loosing that must occur until confusion reigns in the enemy's camp (Matthew 16:18 -19)." This is not a biblical use of "binding and loosing." This term was reserved by the rabinical leaders as what actions were "permitted or forbidden" under their traditions and laws. It has nothing to do with the concept that Sheets is promoting.
I simply said that I don't believe in binding principalities over regions. There is no example of such thing being done in Scripture nore is there any teaching of such.
HOWEVER, Matthew 18:18-20, when taken together in CONTEXT is talking about PRAYER and our AUTHORITY in prayer. While it may be taken to en extreme in some SW circles, I find it to be quite watered down in many other circles. The "binding and loosing" privileges that God gave to the church is certainly nothing more but flowery passive and meaningless words to so many people.
Therefore I don't think that problem is that Sheets is being anti-Scriptural. I think that problem is that you and he differ on the APPLICATION of that passage of Scripture. That is your dispute, though a dispute built upon theological bias.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Do you believe that the scriptures quoted by Sheets in the following comment mean what he claims?
- By those who understand the principles of spiritual warfare, there is a kingdom force that must be employed in the spirit until the powers of darkness yield to the forces of light (Daniel 10:12-14; Matthew 11:12; Ephesians 6:12).
- God's will alone will not decide this election (Hebrews 3:18-19; Luke 19:44).
- There is a persistence that must be exercised, striking the ground until complete victory is assured (2 Kings 13:14 -19).
Yes, I agree with the principles that Sheets laid out though I may have given other Scriptures and more detailed explanations for my position.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Where is the biblical support for statements such as:
- Sometimes asking is all that is necessary, sometimes not. In this battle it absolutely is not.
Matthew 7:7-11 speaks about a PERSISTENT asking, seeking, and knocking. Ephesians 6:10-18 talks about the stand that we must make against the enemy along with prayer. Jesus tells us that we are to pray and not give up. Paul tells us that we are to pray without ceasing. Therefore asking sometimes is inefficient. Inetrecession and perseverence in prayer is often needed until we see victory.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
- God must have a man in office who seeks His face.
The Bible does tell us that righteousness exalts a nation. It is prefereable that God has a man in office that follows His agenda more closely than one who goes totally contrary to it to please the masses. Old Testament history is a testimony to God's blessing or lack of blessing on a ation who goes against His will.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
How does the claim, "God must have a man in office who seeks His face," square with the claims of Paul in Romans 12 and 13 (when Nero was on the throne)? Are we to believe that Nero sought the face of God while he burned his Christians as torches to light the way?
I'm not sure how Romans 12 and 13 disputes Sheets' statement unless you believe that it is God's will for America to have an ungodly preseident as Nero was. If I lived in Paul's time or if I lived in a Communist or Islamic country today where I have no choice but to suffer like that for my faith then that would be one thing.
However, why do we find it necessary to invite ungodly leadership into the USA? Why not continue fighting for the godliness and freedom of this country? Do you believe that God desires to have ungoldy leaders in office?
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/3/2004 4:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Victory: Is there something UNBIBLICAL about Sheets statements?
I personally can't see anything he said that went against Scripture. On the contrary, it seems to me that what he says can be Scripturally supported.
Bear in mind that I am NOT one of those who advocates the extreme teachings that came out of the SW Movement (binding principalities over regions, spiritual mapping, and all that jazz).
Spen: I believe, along with you, that God uses men's votes as a means to manifest the man He has chosen to give civil authority in the USA. What I dispute is the claims of Sheets which go to far and abuse the scriptures. His opening comment is anti-biblical and false, no matter how sincere he may be. "Up until now the Holy Spirit has not led me to issue a call to prayer for this year's elections, as I did in 2000." We find that we have already been issued a call by the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 2:1, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior." Perhaps he is only confused at how he should issue a call and is not concerned about the unequivical call that the Holy Spirit has already issued. At the very least I find it misguided as if he thinks that he is God's spokesperson as to tell us when we should pray, when God has already objectively commanded us to pray.
Victory, your comments above answer your own question on at least one point, binding and loosing principalities, etc. This is exactly the verse that Sheets uses in his proclamation "There is a binding and loosing that must occur until confusion reigns in the enemy's camp (Matthew 16:18 -19)." This is not a biblical use of "binding and loosing." This term was reserved by the rabinical leaders as what actions were "permitted or forbidden" under their traditions and laws. It has nothing to do with the concept that Sheets is promoting.
Do you believe that the scriptures quoted by Sheets in the following comments mean what he claims?
- By those who understand the principles of spiritual warfare, there is a kingdom force that must be employed in the spirit until the powers of darkness yield to the forces of light (Daniel 10:12-14; Matthew 11:12; Ephesians 6:12).
- God's will alone will not decide this election (Hebrews 3:18-19; Luke 19:44).
- There is a persistence that must be exercised, striking the ground until complete victory is assured (2 Kings 13:14 -19).
Where is the biblical support for statements such as:
- Sometimes asking is all that is necessary, sometimes not. In this battle it absolutely is not.
- God must have a man in office who seeks His face.
How does the claim, "God must have a man in office who seeks His face," square with the claims of Paul in Romans 12 and 13 (when Nero was on the throne)? Are we to believe that Nero sought the face of God while he burned his Christians as torches to light the way?
Hey Spen and Victoryword:
I do admire Sheets immensely. I was one getting his calls to prayer in 2000. I truly believe he is a proper example of a modernday prophet. I surely do hold that men praying on earth is an absolute necessity to see evil power lessened. I wish I could say absolutely that if fewer of us prayed, Bush would have lost. I think this, but who knows. I do agree that some of the SW movement may be going beyond scripture. I learned of this from my pastor, and Leann Payne and from this website. I would rather have us praying lots and needing to hone our praying skills rather than being overly concerned with techniques and shrinking back from prayer. Jesus did teach us in the Lord's Prayer to pray God's will be done on earth. Jesus did say we don't have cause we don't ask. It seems so plain to me that we need more pray-ers and more fervency, not any less. I have dealt with my kids, now adults, having the mind-set that God's just gonna do whatever He wants, why pray...Sheets deals with this wonderfully in his books on Intercession and Watchman ministry. I can't see being highly critical of the man as I know of his intensity and desire to stay in God. He is not a flake, imho.
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Holiday
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 11/9/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello friends,
Yeah this interesting. In light of Doc's recent stuff on the socio political scene. I feel two ways about what Sheets says.
One, of course I'm glad he endorses the divine/human partnership model. Even in something like the election.
Two, Maybe I can't speak for Sheets, but I know he is good friends with Ted Haggard another pastor of a fairly large non-denominational charasmatic church in Colorado Springs. Anyhow Haggard is the president of National Association for Evangelicals. He endorses Bush. I immagine Sheets follows Haggard on most of political stances. Anyhow, they both do admirable work in advising the president on abortion and other issues that I think it is clear where Evangelical America stands.
However, this is my concern. Haggard in a sermon I listened to last fall was talking about a Lutheran minister who said that God didn't pick or favor anyone to win the war. He said God doesn't take sides. Haggard sharpley criticised the pastor and spoke for Evangelical American when he endorsed the war on account of Hussien's lawlessness. These are difficult issues to make judgement calls about. I'm inclined to lean with the Lutheran pastor. I'm not sure if God would have gone to war or not?
All this to say that if Sheets participation statement is to get Christians to pray for the election and the president I'm all for it. But if it is to get Bush into office, then I'm not sure that I agree (I voted for Bush, I say this only because I don't think God crossed his fingers hoping Bush got elected). I think Doc might back me up when I say, God isn't as concerned with who wins the election so He can execute a plan in Iraq as he is Christian being radical counter-cultural people of the Kingdom of God.
P.S. for any computer smart people. How come I can't get the spell check or any other features above to work on my posts?
Open to the fact that I'm might be wrong,
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