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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/10/2004 3:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17). All sin is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). All sin is a falling short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23).
That said, 1 John 5 also speaks of a "sin unto death," and a "sin NOT unto death." (Which, in context, seems to simply speak of sins that are not repented of while one has time to repent, and therefore they cling to the soul even after one's death, bringing one into irremedial and eternal condemnation).
Also, Paul says that sexual sin is a sin against one's own body, and is tantamount to joining the body of Christ to a harlot.
It seems to me that while the wages of any and all sin is clearly death (Rom. 6:23), the immediate consequences of, for instance, having hatred in one's heart, are far less devastating to the object of one's hatred than actually murdering him would be.
Wanting to kill someone, in God's eyes is considered morally equivalent to murder, and if not repented of, in God's eyes this would be treated the same as if we were guilty of actual murder, for God sees and judges "the thoughts and intents of the heart."
All moral action, whether sinful or holy, originates in the heart/innermost being:
Mark 7:20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
1 Cor. 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
Heb. 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Ezek. 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"
Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
John
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/10/2004 3:46 PM (GMT -6) | | As far as restoring a brother who has sinned, Scripture is pretty much straightforward in that regard:
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Matt. 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
1 Timothy 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
John
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/10/2004 4:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
quote:
Wanting to kill someone, in God's eyes is considered morally equivalent to murder, and if not repented of, in God's eyes this would be treated the same as if we were guilty of actual murder, for God sees and judges "the thoughts and intents of the heart."
I don't know of any verse that would suggest that. Obviously death is the penalty of both sins. But it would seem that a person could feel like doing evil and yet act in a disciplined way to restrain himself. Wouldn't the self-restraint which prevented the wrong action be worth something to God when it came to meting out punishment?
Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. NASB
One thing I think we must always distinguish between is the temptation to sin and the consent of the will to the temptation, which is actual sin.
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (JE--desire).
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
If temptation and sin are not properly distinguished, we must then say that Jesus was a sinner, for He was "tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15).
So it seems to me that we can have an involuntary momentary urge to do something, during which moment we have a choice to make, whether to consent to the impulse to sin or to consent to what we know to be right, and resist the temptation in that instance. But it's no sin to be tempted.
John
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/10/2004 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
I would agree except I'm not sure the urge must be so momentary. The verse that says don't let the sun go down on your wrath would seem to suggest that wrath can legitimately be felt for a while, but should be subdued before the day's over lest it erupt into action.
Hi Jeff,
Interesting (and good) point. Apparently there is a stage of anger one can experience that is not sinful, as modern translations say, "In your anger do not sin..." I think rather than giving us a length of rope roughly equivalent to the rest of the day before the sun goes down, Paul is using an idiom to simply say, "Don't let (even non-sinful) anger fester," for he goes on to say in the same passage:
Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
Blessings,
John
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 11/10/2004 6:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Could you say that in some sense all sin is equal and on different ground it is not?
Edwards likes to emphasize the infinitude of God. God being absolutley perfect with no imperfection in the slightest bit tainting His being is the purest of all good things. even the slightest turning away from Him creates an infinite gap between us and the Pure Lord. In this sense, even the smallest sin such as stealing a candy bar, is just as far seperated from the moral perfection that God has called us to, as murdering someone. There aren't different gaps of infinity, you can't be OO+1 away from God. You can only be OO seperated from Him. It is in this way that Edwards depcits the wretchedness of all sin, something that he has greatly learned me in.
On the other ground though sin isn't equal in that the earthly physical consequences of stealing a candy bar aren't equal to that of murdering someone; and likewise the blasphemies against the Son will be forgiven, but not those against the Holy Spirit.
Christ's Sheep,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/11/2004 1:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you all for your perspectives and the scriptures to back them up. I have (as I know many commentators have as well) wondered about the sin of blasphemy aginst the Holy Spirit. We are told that it is an unforgivable sin which would seem at least different, if not worse, than a "normal" sin.
There is another passage concerning a sin that we are not even to pray for, the sin that leads to death in 1 John 5.
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
I wonder how this works regarding restoration of a brother. If a brother commits a sin leading to death and we are not even to make a request for this, how does this work in light of the passage, "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." There seems to be some kind of limits to this restoration.
Perhaps the limits have to do with the sinning person embracing the work of the Holy Spirit. “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." If we fail to embrace this conviction of sin, we do not believe in Him. If we fail to embrace His righteousness, we have no part in the resurrection unto life that His own resurrection proves is offered. If we fail to believe in the work of the Holy Spirit to convict, then we choose to participate in the culmination of the coming judgment that began at the cross upon Satan and his kingdom.
I wonder if we are not to request or restore until they have embraced this work of the Holy Spirit and that if they fail to do so, they are practicing the unforgivable sin because they are refusing to repent?
Spen Lake
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billy7
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 11/14/2004 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone. I'm new here and I've really been enjoying browsing the various topics and discussions on this board. This topic, in particular, caught my attention and I'd like to post a comment concerning it.
I think that in regards to the question of whether some sins are worse than others or if all sins are equal, it really boils down to a question of motives. God's question to man is not "What are you doing?" but, "Why are you doing what you are doing?" And the bottom line is that there are really only two motives for doing anything: 1)Selfishness (sin), and 2)Love. The first is legal and the second is gospel.
The natural state of all humans before conversion to Christ is selfishness. Selfishness is placing your own desire of happiness and dread of misery above the rights of others (including God's). The Bible calls this sin--a wrong purpose of life; a wrong ultimate motive that is behind every choice a person makes. It's the "what's in it for me" syndrone.
Now a person may change their outward actions, and yet ultimately still be living for the same purpose. For example, the person who sees the reality of eternity and takes up Christianity/religion as a way to find happiness there is really no different from the person who takes up molesting children to find happiness in this life. Both are, in reality, living for the same purpose--their own happiness. Each has simply chosen a different means to fulfill their like purpose. Both are only motivated by selfishness, and thus both are still dead in sin.
Charles Finney once said that a man who would steal a penny would also, under the right circumstances, rob a bank. Both are motivated by the same principle of selfishness. The one merely refrains from the "larger" sin because of social restraints such as fear of punishment or loss of reputation.
Jesus equated uncontrolled anger with murder, and lust with adultry. In both cases, the outward actions are really only the manifestation of an inward reality. This was the problem of the Pharisees--they did all the right things for the wrong reason; they were motivated by selfishness.
So, in essence, every "sin" is really only a manifestation of a deeper root cause--namely selfishness. If a person steals, it's because he's selfish; if a person lies, it's because he's selfish; if a person commits adultery, it's because he's selfish, and so on and on. And by the same token, if a thief hears of heaven and decides to stop stealing and start giving to the poor only because he thinks this is the way to find happiness there, then he is still deserving of hell, because though his outward actions have change, he is, in reality still living for the same selfish motive--to please himself instead of God.
Looking forward to future discussions,
Billy Evans
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 11/14/2004 9:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
It was recently explained to me that according to the Bible, all sins are equal. I have been pondering this over dinner with my children and this raises some interesting points. Aside from the biblical view that all sin separates us from God and makes us guilty enough for eternal death, is all sin really equally as bad?
If all sin were equally as bad then if I felt hatred in my heart, I should really murder the object of my hate because then, at least I would only hate them once.
If all sins were equally as bad, there would be no "moral dilemmas." I would be free to choose whatever choice I was presented as equally bad. Watching as my parents starved from the comfort of my Layzboy because I loved to gamble at Mystic Lake would be the same as not going back to the grocery store to return the penny that the clerk gave me in error.
Looking at a sexy photo would be no different than being a serial rapist.
etc...
I've always been taught that sin is sin is..."a rose by any other name" kind of thing...
BUT...our choices affect others, and looking at a sexy photo is not going to have the profoundly powerful affect that becoming a serial rapist would have, on your life, or the lives of others, and ultimately on eternity...so, there must be a difference.
All sin is against God. It is all disobedience, either commision or ommision, right?
Someone stood up in church a week ago and pronounced that glutteny is the worst sin. Maybe it was for that person. We are to "lay aside the sin that so easily besets us" according to Paul, and "run the race set before us." What is sin for one, is not always sin for another...
OK...it's really late, and now I have more questions than answers!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (It would be a sin for me to not get my rest).
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/1/2004 7:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
1 John 3:6-9 says that a person that is begotten of God "does not go on sinning."
My how easily we sell ourselves short of God's promises to keep us from evil.
John
John,
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. I am not selling us "short." My understanding of that verse is that those that are begotten of God do not continue in a lifestyle of sin - literally choosing to continue in sin. The Word also tells us that if we say we are without sin, that we lie.
What I was saying, is that we all sin, even as redeemed. The difference is that we have the power to resist sin, and that we are forgiven, but none of us will journey to the Father sinless. That is not an excuse or a cop out - it is reality. We will not be sinless in this life, but at the same time, as Tim so beautifully put it in the thread about burdens - we can recognize that our righteousness is in Christ, and that we are infinitely precious to Him. I continue to depend on His grace, because I, for one, am not without sin.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/1/2004 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
1 John 3:6-9 says that a person that is begotten of God "does not go on sinning."
My how easily we sell ourselves short of God's promises to keep us from evil.
John
John,
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
Not sure; maybe.
quote:
I am not selling us "short."
To say sin is something Christians cannot avoid is indeed selling us short.
quote:
My understanding of that verse is that those that are begotten of God do not continue in a lifestyle of sin - literally choosing to continue in sin.
I don't guess I get your meaning. How do we sin if we don't choose to?
quote:
The Word also tells us that if we say we are without sin, that we lie.
Actually, that verse (1 John 1:8), which, along with Matt. 7:1 seems to be about the most popular verse in the world among professing Christians, if it means basically no one can ever avoid sin for even a nanosecond, directly contradicts the verses immediately prior to and following it, as well as 1 John 3:6-9.
The New English Translation (NET) Bible, a scholarly evangelical translation, along with many sound biblical scholars, avoids making an inspired apostle contradict himself so directly, and renders 1 John 1:8 as, "if we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." This avoids the direct contradiction, that one may never expect to be free from sin in this life while verses 7 and 9 plainly say that blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
quote:
What I was saying, is that we all sin, even as redeemed.
I would sincerely like to know how you define sin (is it something we have control over, or does God condemn folks to hell for that which they can't avoid?), and where in the Bible does it say that "we all sin, even as redeemed?" Additionally, what is salvation, if not deliverance from sin (Matt. 1:21) not just from hell?
quote:
The difference is that we have the power to resist sin,
I certainly agree with that.
quote:
That is not an excuse or a cop out - it is reality.
What better excuse could there be for sin, than to say we just can't help it?
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!
Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/1/2004 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | |
I recently came across "the NET Bible" (New English
Translation), and was intrigued by how it
renders 1 John 1:8:
1:8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we
are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Particularly of note is the following footnote:
10 tn Grk "say we do not have sin." The use of e[cw +
aJmartiva (ecw + Jamartia) is an expression limited to
John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other
constructions where e[cw governs an abstract noun
(e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17;
5:12-13), it indicates that a state is involved, which
in the case of aJmartiva would refer to a state of
sin. The four times the expression e[cw + aJmartiva
occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11)
all refer to situations where a wrong action has been
committed or a wrong attitude has already existed,
resulting in a state of sin, and then something else
happens which further emphasizes the evil of that
action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is
the same. The author is addressing people who have
sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them
that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of
that sin. The context of 1 John does not imply
libertinism (where sins are flaunted as a way of
demonstrating one's "liberty") on the part of the
opponents, since the author makes no explicit charges
of immoral behavior against his opponents. The worst
the author explicitly says is that they have failed to
love the brethren (1 John 3:17). It seems more likely
that the opponents were saying that things a believer
did after conversion were not significant enough to be
"sins" that could challenge one's intimate
relationship with God (a relationship the author
denies that the opponents have to begin with).
_____________
All of the above is available free of charge online at
the following link:
http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm
What was most striking to me was that this translation
(which seems to be largely the work of Dallas
Theological Seminary (dispensationalist, non-Wesleyan)
professors), would come to basically identical
conclusions as many of you will recognize as those of
Daniel Steele, Asa Mahan, John Wesley, Adam Clarke,
and Charles Finney. There's yet hope for
dispensationlists, I suppose! (very big grin).
John
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/2/2004 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
quote:
10 tn Grk "say we do not have sin." The use of e[cw +
aJmartiva (ecw + Jamartia) is an expression limited to
John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other
constructions where e[cw governs an abstract noun
(e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17;
5:12-13), it indicates that a state is involved, which
in the case of aJmartiva would refer to a state of
sin. The four times the expression e[cw + aJmartiva
occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11)
all refer to situations where a wrong action has been
committed or a wrong attitude has already existed,
resulting in a state of sin, and then something else
happens which further emphasizes the evil of that
action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is
the same.
To the same point is the phrase "sin no more" which Jesus said per John 5:14, 8:11. I am one hyper-dispensationalist who enthusiastically embraces non-libertinism!
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