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Cottonman
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 16

Posted 11/24/2004 12:55 PM (GMT -6)

Tom,
I am really sorry man! I completly misrepresented your response to me. I hold myself in contempt! Obviously I got quite a bit too worked up and hence my ability to articulate flew out the window.

Tom: Now, it's not this fact which I use as an analogy to prove that God took risks in creating us for the sake of love. You keep arguing I haven't proved this. I'm not trying to prove it. All I'm trying to show is the intelligibility of it, that is, the meaningfulness of the claim that God took risks in creating us and did so because his purposes for us were loving and relational.

Yeah, okay. The MEANINGFULNESS. Boy is my face red Disapprove

Yeah, you're right. Your analogy could be seen as giving such a concept meaning. I fail to see how it gives any credence to the goodness of LFW, however, because my two analogies show that it can be an evil gift. It doesn't make LFW anymore coherent to me all either, but I see your point and it was a good one. My idea, once again, is that God as a father only gives good gifts. LFW is not a good gift, therefore God didn't give it. Seems simple to me.

Your response here was unexpected but not something I haven't heard before. You totally one-upped me in doing what I did not expect you to do. I apologize for jumping to such a hasty conclusion and showing my self for the jurk that I am. I humbly submit to any rebuke that you might have.

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/24/2004 1:43 PM (GMT -6)

Cotton, I say let's stuff ourselves with Turkey and dressing tomorrow and give thanks to God for knowing more than we know, loving more than we love, caring more than we care, and for accepting us both as his sons (whatever that means! Eyebrow

)!

Love and peace,
Tom

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/24/2004 6:45 PM (GMT -6)

Cottonman,

quote:
My idea, once again, is that God as a father only gives good gifts. LFW is not a good gift, therefore God didn't give it. Seems simple to me.

What precisely does God "give" in your view? If there is no LFW and God is not "retarded," how has He not in effect "given" all the evil to the world?

Or does God, in your view, "give" good gifts when acting as father, but evil gifts when acting as a non-father?

wjs

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 11/24/2004 7:35 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
My idea, once again, is that God as a father only gives good gifts. LFW is not a good gift, therefore God didn't give it. Seems simple to me.

Also, LFW, like any other real gift, only has the capacity for evil to the extent that it is misused, just as it conversely has the capacity for good to the extent that it is properly used.

John

http://revivaltheology.net

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 11/25/2004 5:14 AM (GMT -6)

The one responsible Cottonman; insane as the experiment might be, did possibly one sane thing at settling the problem He obviously created and took the responsibility upon Himself... that might be deemed love by some for the sake of freedom?

I want pudding Tongue

Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 11/25/2004 6:14 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
I've presented plenty, you just ignore them.

Wicker Boy-

None of you references can be taken to directly teach that man posesses LFW. The abiblity to act is not proof of free will. Because a person has sinned does not prove free will. A believer who acts righteously does not give credence to free will. You have proved nothing. You have proved that man has a will, but that it is not free. Man has a will which most of the time is against God's will, but this still does not make it free. The bible clearly teaches that the spirit of God leads us to righteous acts. The bible clearly teaches that fleshly desires, sin, and other spiritual influences lead us to unrighteous acts. The concept of a free will is not biblical. There is only one free will in the universe and that is God's. You so desperately try to strip God of His free will so that man can have his.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

the Wicker Man
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73

Posted 11/26/2004 7:39 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
The concept of a free will is not biblical. There is only one free will in the universe and that is God's. You so desperately try to strip God of His free will so that man can have his.

So the only free will in the universe is working through me, trying to strip itself of it's free will? Big Smile

Why the hissy fit? The only free will in the universe is causing me to prove it's not the only free will in the universe.

Genesis 11:6 The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them."

quote:
Originally posted by lock
None of you references can be taken to directly teach that man posesses LFW. The abiblity to act is not proof of free will. Because a person has sinned does not prove free will.

"None of you references"??? Do you mean "None of your references"?

"The abiblity"??? Do you mean "The ability"?

The only free will in the universe isn't very skilled at English spelling? incredible, er, increbidibible

uromancer to the stars

the Wicker Man
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73

Posted 11/26/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Cottonman
To the other guy (potterybarn man or something):
Go back and read what I've said about the Father analogy. I quoted the exact same verse you did, except maybe in a different synoptic. That verse is the force of my agrument. In the future I will thank you for being a tad more informed before you seek to destroy my arguments in a few sentences. I'll appreciate thoughtful, informed responses very much, that is if they add something to the discussion.

So is that a "yes" or "no" whether you take risks every day?

Do you drive a car? yes or no?

Do you travel by airline? yes or no?

Do you ever take risks, believing the benefits outweigh the risk?

uromancer to the stars

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 11/27/2004 2:51 AM (GMT -6)

lock,

Is the freedom you are speaking of, which man does not possess, belong only to God; are you suggesting a limited freedom on man’s part and no limits on God’s freedom, inline with His goodness of course?

You say, “The bible clearly teaches that fleshly desires (mine?), sin(mine?), and other spiritual influences (not mine?) lead us to unrighteous acts (will/choice?).”

Am I free to choose righteous acts, which coincide with God’s will on my own or do you think of God only (other spiritual influence?) as the producer of such acts within me?

I kind of get your point on one level, which you might be suggesting and lose it on so many other levels . . .

I want pudding Tongue

Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there.

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