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Matthew Timothy Short
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 12/20/2004 2:59 PM (GMT -6) |   |
The Role of the Adversary In God's Purpose
By James A. Webb
The Bible says, "The Devil sins from the beginning" (1 John 3:8, KJV). His sin lies in the motive behind his acts, but his acts had to be done in the sense that they were required for the purpose of God to be fulfilled. This is seen in the death of God's Son. Those who demanded that He be crucified, did so with a sinful motive. But Christ, after His resurrection, asked—"Must not the Christ be suffering these things? (Luke 24:26; Concordant Version). Yes, He had to suffer. Without His suffering and death there could have been no salvation. And there would have been no sinners to be saved if the Devil, or Adversary (which is the better translation), had not sinned from the beginning, for it was he who introduced sin into the universe and among the human family. His motive was to defeat God, and his motive constituted sin. But without sinners to be saved, there would have been no need for the Son of God to come and go through His sacrificial suffering, and hence no need for Him to be "the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world" (Rev. 13:8).
The Adversary did not do something that God had planned for him not to do. He did that which was required to be done for the future glory of God. If the Adversary had acted contrary to God's purpose, then, at that time, God was not "operating all according to the counsel of His will" (Eph.1:11). But God does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth" (Dan.4:35).
The Adversary himself is the work of God's hand, for "by His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand formed the crooked serpent" (Job 26:13).
The crooked serpent is "the Adversary and Satan" (Rev.20:2). The Adversary, in the form of a serpent, beguiled Eve (Gen.3:13), thus proving that he was, and is, the deceiver. "The woman, being deluded, has come to be in the transgression" (1 Tim.2:14).
God intended the deceiver to delude the woman. The Adversary was under God's control, just as the woman was. When He used the deceiver to delude her, He was using creatures that were His (Job 12:L10). Yes, both were His, and He used them to bring about an increase of knowledge.
God well knew that the Adversary would deceive Eve, for He formed him to be an Adversary and a Deceiver. "Shall the thing formed say to that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus ?" (Romans 9:20 KJ).
The Adversary was fulfilling God's intention when he deceived mother Eve. It was part of God's purpose, to bring about an awareness. The woman did not partake of the fruit until she saw that it was desired to make one intelligent. The serpent said to the woman:
"God doth know that in the day that ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (intelligent), she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat" (Gen.3:5, 6). While the motive of the Adversary was sinful, yet what he did in deceiving the woman was something within the purpose of God, for the result was an increase of awareness, in as much as we read that the eyes of both the man and the woman were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (v.7).
Many believers are blinded concerning the truth, even as Joseph's brethren were blinded. There are those who say that God did not have, and is not having, anything to do with Satan and his works. When we refer them to Joseph and ask, "Why did Joseph's brethren sell him?" they answer, "Because they hated him." This, of course, is true, but when we point out to them that in later years Joseph said to his brethren, "Therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life" (Gen.45:5), they become confused, for they do not like to believe that God actually did evil to Joseph. They want to place all the blame on his brethren. Of course, God cannot be censured, but the truth is that Joseph's brethren did exactly what God intended them to do. There is no doubt that it was the Adversary who suggested their actions to them, but the Adversary belongs to God in the sense that God created him and can use him as He wills.
So, God used Satan, and Joseph's brethren, to preserve life. This seems strange, for the Adversary is a murderer, but God can, and does, use him for the opposite purpose whenever He pleases to do so.
That the Adversary is subordinate to God is proved by his obedience to the command of the Lord Jesus. When Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan," he went without delay. He left Christ~ (Matt.4:11).
Concerning God, the Scriptures declare that "out of Him –and through Him –and for Him —is all" (Rom.11:36). He is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omniparous. That is, He is able to do all; He knows all; He is present everywhere at the same time; He is the producer of all.
If He is able to do all, then He is able to keep the Adversary from going contrary to His intentions, and He is able to have him do whatever is in accord with His intentions. If God knows all—even the end from the beginning (Isa.46:10)—then the Adversary has never deceived Him. God knew beforehand just what Satan was going to do at all times. If God is present everywhere at the same time, then Satan has never been able to hide from God. If God is the Producer of all, then He made the Adversary as well as everything else.
SATAN CANNOT WITHSTAND GOD'S INTENTION
Satan never thwarts God's plans: instead, God uses him in carrying out His plans, as has been shown. A look at the book of Job will show that Satan does whatever God intends him to do. And if we are to take the record in Job as a model, he does not do more than God allows him to do. God gave him authority to afflict Job, but told him to spare his life, and Satan obeyed implicitly. He afflicted Job and spared his life. In the temptation in the wilderness, Satan did just what God had purposed him to do, when he tested Jesus. The Scriptures say that Jesus "was led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tried by the Adversary" (Matt.4:1). When the period of testing was over, Jesus told him only once to go away, and immediately Satan left Him.
It is admitted by all that when messengers came to Christ after Satan left Him, they were doing just what God had told them to do. This is true. But it is also true that, in testing Jesus, the Adversary was doing just what God intended him to do. When we attribute false values to the Adversary, we also attribute false values to God, for we assume that the Adversary is operating independently of God, and that God cannot have it otherwise. The fact remains that the Lord God is the Lord God of the Adversary (though Satan would not acknowledge this), for the Lord Jesus quoted to him the words of Deuteronomy (6:16), "You shall not be putting on trial the Lord your God" (Mat.4:7, Luke 4:12).
Satan is a slanderer, but much of Christendom (including many of its clergymen) is slandering the slanderer, and, in doing so, is also slandering, maligning God. If we assume that the Adversary operates independently of God and that God is not having him (the Adversary) do the things that he is doing, it is evident that we would be guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and would be subject to the penalty therefore, were it not for the precious truth of Justification. The members of the ecclesia which is the body of Christ (Eph.1:22, 23: 2:13-16; Col.1:13 and 24) are extricated from this entanglement, for they are "saved in grace, through faith," and this is not of themselves, but is the gift of God, and so not of works (Eph.2:8). Justified through the faith of Christ (Rom.3:21-23, Gal.2:16 and 3:14), the members of the ecclesia are complete in Christ (Col.2:10). To the ecclesia, in spirit, "the consummation of the eons have attained" (1 Cor.10:11). The believers were, "entombed together with Him through baptism into death" (Rom.6:4), and, "being entombed together with Him in baptism," God "vivifies us together jointly with Him, dealing graciously with all our offences. . " (Col.2:12, 13). The resultant position is: "Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus . . ." (Rom.8:1). Hence, those who are "in Christ Jesus" cannot do anything that will add to, or subtract from, anything that they are or have in Christ Jesus.
Yet, in the light of such Scriptures as these, and many others, there are teachers in Christendom who tell us not to commit that sin, which, if committed, will not be pardoned "neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matt.12:32—see also Mark 3:29). The truth is thus ignored that those who are "in Christ Jesus" have been justified, which is greater, by far, than forgiveness.
THE UNPARDONABLE SIN
That which is usually termed "the unpardonable sin"—blasphemy "against the Holy Spirit"—is the attributing of the work of God's spirit (as this was manifest in the works of God wrought by the Lord Jesus—John 5:36; 9:4; 14:10; etc) to demonic power. To say that the Adversary acted quite independently of God—and of God's intention—in the introducing of sin and estrangement into the universe, is, really, to sin against the Holy Spirit.
God brought the Adversary into being, for all is out of god Rom.11:36), and God had determined beforehand that sin and estrangement would enter the universe through the acts of the Adversary, but this fact must not be considered in isolation. God had also purposed His mighty work of salvation by way of the cross of His beloved Son and, in order to reveal the glory of His saving power in Christ Jesus, God required the dark background of sin and estrangement. God, Who Himself is love, could never have suffered His love to remain for ever unrevealed and unrequited. Had Satan, the Adversary, in introducing (through his activities) sin into the universe, acted in absolute independence of God, then he should be praised for bringing about the condition that gave God the opportunity to manifest His saving grace. God will not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8).
Until we are able to recognize the mighty power of God, "Who is operating all (and Satan is included in the "all") in accord with the counsel of His will" (Eph.1:11), we cannot avoid attributing to the Adversary what God achieves and will achieve. But this we must refrain from doing, being concerned always to ascribe all praise to God.
It should be known that Satan is not an intruder in God's universe, but rather holds, as the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, high office among God's celestial hosts. In the book of Job, he is referred to as "Satan" and in Hebrew this means "adversary." It is just as necessary that God should have an adversary in His government as it is that He should have any other officer. And adversary opposes, and Satan opposed Job, and thus God had an opportunity to show what His grace and compassion could accomplish for Job (see James 5:11). Without the Adversary, we would not have had the beautiful and uplifting story found in the book of Job. Indeed, had it not been for the Adversary, there would have been no "wisdom of this world" (1 Cor.1:20), against the dark backdrop of which is revealed the glory of Christ, Who is the power and wisdom of God, the universal Saviour (1 Cor.1:18-25).
If those who seek to expound the Scriptures would first of all realize and then proclaim that the Adversary, Satan, fills the role assigned to him (and required of him) by God, and that in that role he is subject to God's authority and control, and can go no further than the limits God has prescribed for him, then there would be less unease within the ranks of Christendom. We close with the words of Paul in Romans11:36:–
"O the depths of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God. . . "Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all. To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36)
PUDDING 
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David Jonasson
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 5/2/2005 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | I will answer James A. Webb by 6 short considerations followed by some direct comments on passages from his
post.
1. The whole OT shows how God's chosen people uses their free will to oppose God's wish/plan. Eg: The Golden calf, Saul's fall from the throne, God describes in the book of Jeremiah and Isaiah how the people does evil and we see God get disappointed, frustrated, surprised and sad over the fact that they don't follow his wish/plan for them. This and much more shows that God's will/wish can be thwarted by human agents. He will reach his overall puposes with creation but he doesn't control every event.
2. If Satan only is God's "little puppet" that carries out God's sovereign will, why do we see Jesus casting out demons? If Satan and demons only is carrying out God's will for the earth and people Jesus shouldn't fight the demons, he should have said: "OK, sorry - it's God's will for you to be posessed." And it's the same with sickness, - Jesus attributed many of the sicknesses he met to demons, sicknesses that he healed just because they weren't a part of God's will. And why do Paul in Acts describe how they wanted to go to a certain place to preach the good news, but that they were unable to do it because Satan stopped them?
3. How can it be morally acceptable for God to create Satan evil for his "mysterious purposes" and then punish or destroy him in Hell?
4. If God created Satan evil, and uses him as he like, then isn't God really responsible for all evil? Than it wasn't really Satan tempting Eve in the garden of Eve, but God using him. If it is God through Satan carrying out all evil we see on our earth, why is he then sending his own Son to fight Satan by heal people, cast out demons, instruct how to live pure and finally by defeating Satan and death on the cross? Is God fighting himself,but a kingdom that is divided can't last! If it is God through Satan who causes all evil on earth, then the world would be a much nicer place without God...
5. We get a glimpse of the warfare aspect of God's relationship to the Devil in Rev. 12. where there is a fight in heaven and and Satan is thrown out. He then is furious and goes after the believers to "steal, kill and destroy" as other NT-passages enlightens is his nature and doings. The devil is working on his own, that's why John in his Gospel often draw contrasts between God's kingdom and the kingdom of darkness and he writes that the "god of this world" is Satan and that Jesus came to overcome him, "tie up the strong man". This language of war is pointless if the devil only is carrying out God's will anyway, than it's all just a crazy charade orchestrated by God.
6. As you mentioned from Job, God did create the crooked snake...but the passage doesn't require us to believe that "the snake" was crooked when he created him. The book of Job rather shows the warfare-relation between God and Satan. In God's speech in the end he decribes how he needs to fight e.g. Leviathan with a sword. The language gives us the
picture of a real fight, with real opposition, even though God is sure of his ability to defeat Leviathan/crooked snake/Satan, which he does on the cross.
James A Webb wrote:
"God intended the deceiver to delude the woman. The Adversary was under God's control, just as the woman was. When He used the deceiver to delude her, He was using creatures that were His (Job 12:L10). Yes, both were His, and He used them to bring about an increase of knowledge."
1. If God intented this, why does he then show disappointment and anger towards Adam and Eve? And how can he then punish them and the earth?
2. Where in the scripture does it say that God wanted the fall to occur???!! It is described as a tragic act that Jesus later comes to restore the consequences of.
3. So, did Adam and Eve get "more wise" or gained more useful knowledge by eating the forbiddden fruit? NO! By eating the fruit they i) disobeyed God ii) destroyed true relationship as it was intended. They got aware of their nakedness, got overly selfaware and didn't feel pleased to be as they were created to be. iii) The "knowledge" they got destroyed them. They actually wanted to be like God, knowing things they wouldn't manage knowing. To argue that God wished this to happen to mankind doesn't only suggest that God didn't create the world and Adam and Eve good enough but needed to update it, but also that God "intended" Adam and Eve to brake his direct command, not feeling comfortable about how they were created, and for them to want to take his place as God.
4. If we follow James line of arguing we must assume that God's punishment/letting them taste the consequences of following Satan of the sin that He Himself "intended" also was planned. That means that he "intended" the world to be full of sickness, death, unequality between male and female, war, famine etc. But He didn't create the world like that, he fooled his creation into it, making them take the blame. Traditionally the fall is seen as a tragic event where humanity gets cut off from God, but James reasoning lets us into believe that this was "intended" by God from the first place!
5. James use of Job is in this case totally irrelevant.
James wrote:
"The Adversary himself is the work of God's hand, for "by His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand formed the crooked serpent" (Job 26:13).
God well knew that the Adversary would deceive Eve, for He formed him to be an Adversary and a Deceiver. "Shall the thing formed say to that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus ?" (Romans 9:20 KJ)."
1. James builds his belief that God wanted Satan to be evil on a poetic verse out of the book of Job, which alone is a problem. As I argued earlier, God created Satan, but the text in Job doesn;t require us to believe that Satan was evil from the beginning, just that the snake that today is crooked was created by God.
2. The verse from Romans is quite irrelevant, because it's picked out of the context of God arguing his right to choose the gentiles as his own and his right to let the Israelites face the consequences of their constant rebellion against Him. The text doesn't say that God can create a person or angelic being evil for his purposes, the text isn't about individuals.
James wrote:
"Yes, He had to suffer. Without His suffering and death there could have been no salvation. And there would have been no sinners to be saved if the Devil, or Adversary (which is the better translation), had not sinned from the beginning"
1. That the devil sinned from the beginning doesn't have to mean from the moment he was created, but can mean that he started to sin in the early stage of things.
2. That God had to create Satan to make people sin in order to be able to later save them is repulsive in my ears. It's like paying an evil person to throw an innocent child into a lake in order to later be able send a nice person to dive into the water, do CPR, save the child, and then expect the child to be grateful, fall down on it's knees to thank and praise me for saving it! God is then again doing a very strange charade and seems to be forced by something to send Jesus to earth. Because he is forced to this, he creates a devil to create some sinners, and the poor ones who don't believe Jesus message he sends to hell! That's the God we are worshipping! :-)
James wrote:
"The Adversary did not do something that God had planned for him not to do. He did that which was required to be done for the future glory of God. If the Adversary had acted contrary to God's purpose, then, at that time, God was not "operating all according to the counsel of His will" (Eph.1:11). But God does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth" (Dan.4:35)."
1. The Calvinistic theology is aboce the surface again, and i supported by two scriptures. We have already concluded that God's wish/will isn't perfectly seen on earth. (Jesus fighting sickness and death, Israels constant rebellion, Jesus asks his disciples to pray "your will be done", - a worthless prayer if it's already perfectly "being done".) Therefore we need to understand these 2 passages as describing God's overall purposes.
James wrote:
"The Adversary was fulfilling God's intention when he deceived mother Eve. It was part of God's purpose, to bring about an awareness. The woman did not partake of the fruit until she saw that it was desired to make one intelligent. The serpent said to the woman:
"God doth know that in the day that ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (intelligent), she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat" (Gen.3:5, 6). While the motive of the Adversary was sinful, yet what he did in deceiving the woman was something within the purpose of God, for the result was an increase of awareness, in as much as we read that the eyes of both the man and the woman were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (v.7)."
1. We have already concluded that God impossible could have wanted Adam and Eve to eat of this fruit.
2. If God would have wished them this "wonderful knowledge", why didn't he create them with it? Or at least told them to eat it himself, not using the devil.
3. See further arguments concerning the fall earlier in my reply.
James wrote:
"Many believers are blinded concerning the truth, even as Joseph's brethren were blinded. There are those who say that God did not have, and is not having, anything to do with Satan and his works. When we refer them to Joseph and ask, "Why did Joseph's brethren sell him?" they answer, "Because they hated him." This, of course, is true, but when we point out to them that in later years Joseph said to his brethren, "Therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life" (Gen.45:5), they become confused, for they do not like to believe that God actually did evil to Joseph. They want to place all the blame on his brethren. Of course, God cannot be censured, but the truth is that Joseph's brethren did exactly what God intended them to do. There is no doubt that it was the Adversary who suggested their actions to them, but the Adversary belongs to God in the sense that God created him and can use him as He wills.
So, God used Satan, and Joseph's brethren, to preserve life. This seems strange, for the Adversary is a murderer, but God can, and does, use him for the opposite purpose whenever He pleases to do so."
1. God definately wanted Joseph in Egypt, because that was a crucial point in the history of redemtion. But God could have brought Joseph there in a different way. As Joseph's brothers used their free will to get rid of their brother God sent slave-salesmen to rescue him out of the well. In that sense God used the evil of Joseph's brothers, but he didn't necessarily
ordain it, and even if he did, this was a crucial point in the history of salvation so we shouldn't be surprised that God intervenes in remarkable ways.
2. We don't have to believe that God can use Satan "as he wish", but only as Romans says, that God brings good out of all evil. He doesn't ordain it in any way, but uses tacticly Satans moves against him.
James wrote:
"That the Adversary is subordinate to God is proved by his obedience to the command of the Lord Jesus. When Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan," he went without delay. He left Christ~ (Matt.4:11)."
1. James totally misses the point. Yes, Jesus has authority over Satan because of the Holy Spirit is dwelling in him, just as we today as believers have authority in Christ. We see Jesus opposing Satan's rule over the earth when he commands evil spirits to leave people who are possessed or sick. In this warfare-sense Jesus commands Satan to leave, - it's not Jesus little Pochemon/servant who leaves, it's a furious beast who because of Jesus authority is forced to leave for a while.
James wrote:
"It is admitted by all that when messengers came to Christ after Satan left Him, they were doing just what God had told them to do. This is true. But it is also true that, in testing Jesus, the Adversary was doing just what God intended him to do. When we attribute false values to the Adversary, we also attribute false values to God, for we assume that the Adversary is operating independently of God, and that God cannot have it otherwise. The fact remains that the Lord God is the Lord God of the Adversary (though Satan would not acknowledge this), for the Lord Jesus quoted to him the words of Deuteronomy (6:16), "You shall not be putting on trial the Lord your God" (Mat.4:7, Luke 4:12)."
1. This is simply to understand this passage totally wrong. Satan tempts Jesus to do something that wouldn't be right, so Jesus answers Satan by quoting a verse, that says that it would be wrong for Jesus to put HIS God on trial by doing what Satan wanted Jesus to do. James makes it appear as Satan is the one who is putting God on trial...
2. God of course is God of all, whether they acknowledges it or not, but that doesn't say anything about control.
I could quote every single statement and Bibelpassage James uses and do what I've done with the ones above. Over and over again he reads into the verses he uses more than there is to get and uses them in the wrong context. The line of reasoning he does, is a good expression of a Calvinistic view of God.
/DavidPost Edited (David Jonasson) : 5/2/2005 8:14:21 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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