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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/3/2005 5:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Adam and Eve were the only people in the world. THEY had just done the one thing that God had forbid they do. He brought some natural evil into the world for THEIR sake, since they couldn't be terminated without progeny. What's the problem? That their descendants suffered for the sin of their father? That's the way the world works even to this day.
Now, answer me how you know that Adam had the power to curse the ground, etc.
Adam didn't curse the ground.
"17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life."
Natural evil is not a "thing". It's nature's mechanisms working incorrectly. If I plant my corn in low areas, it drowns in the spring. This doesn't mean I'm cursing the corn, but it's not growing due to lack of water. Look up "passive" verbs sometime...
The world was created to work a certain way, when Adam and Eve rebelled, it didn't work the way it should. "Natural evil" didn't "enter" the world, the mechanisms started working wrong.
Personally, I think nature works correctly when God is controlling it, once He relinquishs control to someone else, they don't drive correctly. Since Satan is the ruler of this world, nature is not being controlled correctly.
Boyd's sermon on Sunday was about "natural evil". He did say one thing that was incorrect. He said it's natural that our bodies wear out. If he meant "naturally evil", he's correct. But it was not intended to be that way. Scientists don't know what cells wear out. According to them, it appears cells should live a lot longer than they do.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/3/2005 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, John:
Sociopaths:
Nature ~versus~ Nuture.
Genetic personality/dispostion; or, free will choice.
(Or, a combination of both??).
I haven't had time to explore Dr. Glasser's site yet; however, I will try to review it out tomorrow. Thank you for posting the link.
In addition, perhaps you might be interested in some of the literature by Dr. Hare and/or Dr. Black? Both are experts in the field of Antisocial Personality Disorder.
I sincerely appreciate your thoughts; and, although we may not completely agree regarding the genesis of the disorder, your views help me process my own feelings on the topic. I, too, voiced outrage when I first read about ASPD.
F.Y.I.,
Unlike people who truly do not know "right" from "wrong," sociopaths DO know the difference, and with calculating detachment -- they choose evil. Sociopaths are fully aware of their actions, and feel no remorse. They are not incompetent. They are not insane.
THEREFORE, even though their disorder is thought to have a "genetic" basis -- they are held legally accountable for their evil choices. I guess there's some consolation in that...
Take care...
<><
.
-----
SEE: 'Without Conscience', by Dr. Robert Hare
SEE: 'Bad Boys, Bad Men; Confronting Antisocial Personality Disorder,' by
Dr. Donald Black
Excerpt:
"Bad Boys, Bad Men: Confronting Antisocial Personality Disorder."
..... Donald W. Black, M.D., is Professor of Psychiatry of the University of Iowa College of Medicine in Iowa City. A graduate of Stanford University and the University of Utah School of Medicine, he has received numerous awards for teaching, research, and patient care, and is listed in the "Best Doctors in America."
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/3/2005 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Laika, you make such good sense.
Preach it, brother.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Laika wrote:
quote:
Natural evil is not a "thing". It's nature's mechanisms working incorrectly. If I plant my corn in low areas, it drowns in the spring. This doesn't mean I'm cursing the corn, but it's not growing due to lack of water. Look up "passive" verbs sometime...
The world was created to work a certain way, when Adam and Eve rebelled, it didn't work the way it should. "Natural evil" didn't "enter" the world, the mechanisms started working wrong.
Personally, I think nature works correctly when God is controlling it, once He relinquishs control to someone else, they don't drive correctly. Since Satan is the ruler of this world, nature is not being controlled correctly.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/3/2005 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | wjs wrote:
quote:
Can you explain the difference it makes to a theodicy?
Yes; it means that God is complicit in evil.
Is that acceptable to you?
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/3/2005 5:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Wow.
That's enough to make a (non-drinker) willingly choose to drink copious amounts of vodka and fall over in a stupor. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/3/2005 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
There is a difference between PHYSICAL laws and God's original, benevolent intents. Neither you nor I can violate a physical law. We can adapt those physical laws to malevolent ends, though.
We're talking about 'natural evil'. That's nature not working the way it should, nature out of control.
We can violate natural laws and suffer the consequences and it's NOT God cursing us.
quote:
quote:
If I drink copious amounts of vodka and fall over in a stupor, is God to blame? Answer that.
God is not to blame, but no PHYSICAL law has been violated, here. So it's irrelevant to my point.
Physical laws are violated. My body cannot physically handle copious amounts of vodka (not that I've tried). And it's not God cursing me. It is relevant but I see no answer is coming.
quote:
So back to the original question. You said the physical laws were corrupted. That had to be because a) God did it, or b) God allowed it as the fitting result of Adam's sin. My contention is that neither has any advantage over the other with respect to a theodicy.
The tired, old, "God allowed it". There's some things even God can't do.
Like get the message to Daniel within 21 days. 
God gave dominion to Adam and Eve, they gave it to Satan, the "ruler of this world". He is controlling nature now. That's why miracles stand out, benevolence, against nature, that exhibit God's character.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/3/2005 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
I, too, voiced outrage when I first read about ASPD.
Hi Mayflower,
I am not "outraged" in the least by the idea that ASPD might be genetically based; I just find it highly dubious and altogether unhelpful to blame one's sin/disorder on something one cannot help.
That said, it is true that I have seen firsthand people in my own family who used their supposed mental illness to excuse a TON of extremely irresponsible behavior. After years of being sickened by psychobabble and the hopeless diagnoses of orthodox psychiatry, Dr. Glasser's books have been a very refreshing change of pace for me.
I realize moral responsibility is not something many people like to hear about these days, but obviously it is something that very much needs to be emphasized (along with compassionate support and care, of course, which Dr. Glasser does emphasize and practice as well).
Dr. Glasser's approach has had much success in helping people with his eminently practical approach called "Reality Therapy." Essentially, he says we can't change the past, but we can choose to change our present and future. I have found his views to be VERY congruent with the Open View of the future.
Sorry if I came across as "outraged." I'm as cool as a cucumber, honestly. 
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/3/2005 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | .
John wrote:
quote:
I am not "outraged" in the least by the idea that ASPD might be genetically based;
I just find it highly dubious and altogether unhelpful to blame one's sin/disorder on something one cannot help.
Hm. I understand.
I, too, have difficulty 'cutting slack' to sociopaths who habitually choose evil over good and view human beings as "targets" rather than people -- regardless of the cause.
However, I disagree that an accurate understanding of true sociopathic behavior serves to 'blame one's sin/disorder on something one cannot help.'
Rather, I think it serves to protect unsuspecting people -- from ruthless victimization.
Peace & blessing,
<><
Another cool cucumber...
(choke; cough, cough!)
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/3/2005 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | .
.
Was Hitler a sociopath? I don't know.
During that era, even disorders or diseases with a distinct 'genetic' component were inaccurately attributed to "EMOTIONAL" disturbances, so an accurate diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder (or its equivalent) during that time period would have been nonexistent.
.
Sigmund wrote: quote:
I certainly believe such predatorial types must be kept from harming others, either by institutionalization and/or incarceration if necessary.
Sir, with this, we are in agreement.
Would you like another cigar? I think I'm getting the hang of this...
(cough)...
.
P.S.
BUT, I still disagree with you on some of the other Freudian psychobabble...
.
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/4/2005 1:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I drink copious amounts of vodka and fall over in a stupor, is God to blame? Answer that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God is not to blame, but no PHYSICAL law has been violated, here. So it's irrelevant to my point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Physical laws are violated. My body cannot physically handle copious amounts of vodka (not that I've tried). And it's not God cursing me. It is relevant but I see no answer is coming.
Was the law of gravity violated? Was the conservation of energy and/or momentum violated? Was the law of biogenesis violated? I have no idea what you are talking about. It is PRECISELY the physical laws that CAUSE you to get drunk when you drink too much.
And you're right; it's NOT God cursing you. It's YOU doing what you KNOW will get you drunk. One need not bring Satan into the discussion at all to explain THIS.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So back to the original question. You said the physical laws were corrupted. That had to be because a) God did it, or b) God allowed it as the fitting result of Adam's sin. My contention is that neither has any advantage over the other with respect to a theodicy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tired, old, "God allowed it". There's some things even God can't do.
You said God originally had control of the physical laws and relinqished it. Call it what you want. It's still 6 of one, half dozen of another! The implications for a theodicy are IDENTICAL.
Are you being sarcastic about God not being able to have control of the laws of physics? How do you know this?
quote:
Like get the message to Daniel within 21 days.
I have no idea what your point is here.
quote:
God gave dominion to Adam and Eve, they gave it to Satan, the "ruler of this world". He is controlling nature now.
Prove that Adam's dominion included the CONTROL of PHYSICAL LAWS! That doesn't seem to be required by the text AT ALL. Moreover, why doesn't God take it back from Satan?
quote:
That's why miracles stand out, benevolence, against nature, that exhibit God's character.
So why isn't He healing everybody? Why isn't He silencing storms? Was He only able to THEN, but not NOW? Make your theodicy work for me, Laika. You're still not giving me enough info to solidify it yet.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 1:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
That's why I don't understand the hoopla in trying to get around God just DOING it. Can you explain the difference it makes to a theodicy?
Here's why I think laying evil at God's feet makes a difference to "theodicy".
Let's apply the idea of God being arbitrarily and capriciously evil to us to other relationships.
If a wife was only faithful half the time, would we be satisfied? If she explained her infidelity as serving a mysterious purpose, that would someday understand, would that be acceptable to you? When she was with you and pledged undying love, would you believe her and trust her? I doubt it.
Growing up, if your dad every now and then, arbitrarily and capriciously whacked you on the head, and explained that it served a mysterious purpose that someday you would understand, would you accept that? When he put his arm around you affectionately, would you flinch? Sure you would, you don't know if he's going to whack you again.
So why do we apply this to God? He arbitrarily and capriously does evil to people, but it's a mysterious, hidden purpose that we will understand someday. When God tried to comfort us, we'd flinch.
I'm not talking about punishment from God, punishment is targeted, it's specific, you know why you're being punished and you're the sole target of the corrective punishment; it's a scalpel, not a blunt instrument.
Back to the tsunami. I read where one pastor said that the tsunami was God's punishment but we are to bring mercy to the survivors! ???
1. Wasting everyone that was near the Indian Ocean is not a targeted, corrective action. It's blunt destruction.
2. Why are we to oppose God's supposed punishment by bringing aid and suppressing the body count? We're fighting against God and His supposed "purposes" now. Disease, infection and starvation would be just as much a part of His supposed "plan" as the initial tsunami.
3. Satan sees an excellent opportunity to oppose God's "purposes" and be the one bringing mercy. Now the world is upside down. Try and convince someone that Satan is evil and God is good, when God is capriciously destroying hundreds of thousands of people and Satan is opposing Him by being merciful to these people. Let's work with Satan in opposing God's evil by bringing aid to these people.
We rejected this idea of an arbitrary, capricious God a long time ago, there's no comfort in it. We expect 100% fidelity in our human relationships, let's expect 100% fidelity in our relationship with God. If a "purpose" is hidden, how do you know it's there?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 1:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
quote:
God gave dominion to Adam and Eve, they gave it to Satan, the "ruler of this world". He is controlling nature now.
Prove that Adam's dominion included the CONTROL of PHYSICAL LAWS! That doesn't seem to be required by the text AT ALL. Moreover, why doesn't God take it back from Satan?
quote:
That's why miracles stand out, benevolence, against nature, that exhibit God's character.
So why isn't He healing everybody? Why isn't He silencing storms? Was He only able to THEN, but not NOW? Make your theodicy work for me, Laika. You're still not giving me enough info to solidify it yet.
Why do processes of nature leave equilibrium? Were they designed to?
Why does Jesus rebuke a storm? If it's "natural" for storms to rage, why is He doing the idiocy of rebuking a natural process?
Perhaps the current process is not natural but against the original design for nature, equilibrium.
Is it natural for fig trees to whither up? Why would a curse affect a tree? There's something spiritual going on in the background and Jesus is revealing that in these examples.
Why doesn't God just take control back of the world? He is, through us.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 2:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
For God to bring some suffering to a pair of humans BECAUSE they have upset the originally intended order (which includes their standing with Himself) is NOT ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS. It IS DIRECTED AND SPECIFIC.
Adam and Eve broke their relationship with God. They caused the consequences by their actions.
I was speaking of the tsunami, the subject of this thread.
Tsunami, blunt instrument of death. Serves no "purpose".
quote:
You are not distinguishing between laws and CONDITIONS. The CONDITIONS have changed, which results in dis-equilibrium.
No. I see no logical reason why magma has to circulate and the tectonic plates have to slide around. Both could remain at equilibrium, imho.
quote:
Explain to me how our actions or inactions affect earthquakes and the butterfly effect.
OK
Adam and Eve given dominion of the earth.
They pass dominion on to the ruler of this world.
All of creation is out of whack, magma rotates, unnecessarily, tectonic plates slide around, unnecessarily, the weather leaves equilibrium, unnecessarily.
"Primitive" man (primitive? they invented all the useful stuff like wheels, we only invented crap, like television) recognizes the spirits all around us in nature.
"Modern" man removes himself from nature and explains everything away. He is as wrong about spiritual things as he is wrong about the benefits of fast food restaurants.
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