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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 7:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
... we only invented crap, like television) ...
Hold on there pardner, touch not the annointed.
It gets worse. "Primitive" man invented things that are neither-handed, i.e. spears can be used by both left-handed and right-handed people.
Pounding sticks, the same. Canoe paddles, poking sticks, digging sticks, sticks in general.
What'd we invent? The QWERTY keyboard!
Right-handed pencil sharpeners, right-handed scissors, right-handed guitars and left-handed hockey sticks. Baseball bats too. Your honor,
I rest my case.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/4/2005 7:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
sparknheart:
quote:
What about Adam and Eve, how did their consciences develop? They sure acted like they had a guilty conscience once they ate from the forbidden tree.
They "walked with God", don't you think they learned from Him?
Well it’s good to know rebellious children are part of the norm. If not, I’m in good company with another poor parent.
Hmmm... conscience:
Isaiah 30:21 (NRSV)
And when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left, your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."
quote:
sparknheart, I'll take my wallet back, now
Hey, my family encourages such behavior. In fact my cousin Vinny has a message for you, “Dead Men Don't Repent”.  | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/4/2005 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | jefscott
quote:
To use the New Testament to completely interpret Genesis is exactly the opposite of "text in context." Doc has argued heretofore for the principle that a text should be interpreted according to the author's intent with particular reference to it's original audience. THAT'S text in context.
What did Jesus say that would indicate that it was not God that caused the thorns and thistles?
Ron
I didn't use Doc's quote to interpret all of Genesis, I have previously used Gen 3:17 & 18 which you blew over, still viewing the ground cursed as God's act.
Thanks for the reminder of what text in context means, I had no idea it meant that  But to infer that Jesus is not the express image of the invisible God, the same God that is in Genesis, is drawing upon extra biblical concepts. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, there evidently was some power external to Jesus that was opposed to God's purposes in Christ.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/4/2005 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
Back in the saddle with a bit of time!!! Sorry I'm so late!!!
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by jefscott
For God to bring some suffering to a pair of humans BECAUSE they have upset the originally intended order (which includes their standing with Himself) is NOT ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS. It IS DIRECTED AND SPECIFIC.
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Adam and Eve broke their relationship with God. They caused the consequences by their actions.
There is a difference between a REASON and a CAUSE. I have REASONS for doing certain actions, but it is my own VOLITION/WILL that is the CAUSE - not the REASON. The REASON is the intellectually apprehended INCENTIVE; the VOLITION/WILL is the effectual CAUSE of the action.
I absolutely agree that it was the TRANSGRESSION of Adam & Eve that RESULTED in the curse of the ground, etc. Just as it was the actions of Satan that resulted in the serpent crawling on it's belly. But these facts don't prove that Satan CAUSED the serpent to crawl on it's belly or that Adam/Eve CAUSED the ground to be cursed. It is just as conceivable (and intuitive TO ME) that these facts were the REASONS for God CAUSING those consequences.
quote:
I was speaking of the tsunami, the subject of this thread.
Tsunami, blunt instrument of death. Serves no "purpose".
Which is what I have said previously. A tsunami may simply be a side-effect of previous physical dis-equilibriums and completely unINTENDED by either God, Satan, or man. But at some point in the past, the original dis-equilibrium(s) RESULTED from sin of some kind, and, thus, were INTENDED. Either by God as a fitting consequence of sin, or by man or Satan as an evil end.
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You are not distinguishing between laws and CONDITIONS. The CONDITIONS have changed, which results in dis-equilibrium.
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No. I see no logical reason why magma has to circulate and the tectonic plates have to slide around. Both could remain at equilibrium, imho.
Perhaps, under the right conditions. But I only see a couple of possibilities:
1) God caused the fallenness of the world, the Flood, etc., and allowed the natural results of those providences to have their "natural" after-effects, or
2) God DESIGNED the world in such a way that the fate of millions of humans rested upon the actions of 2 individuals.
The point is, in both cases, God has deemed it WORTHWHILE to have this world continue with all of it's "natural" and moral evils. And THAT is why I don't see which has any more value to a theodicy. They're essentially equivalent. But I think 1) is easier to defend from the text of scripture, for Gen. 1:26 says man's dominion was over the animals - NOT the laws of physics. So it is an ad-hoc assumption to presume as much.
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Explain to me how our actions or inactions affect earthquakes and the butterfly effect.
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OK
Adam and Eve given dominion of the earth.
They pass dominion on to the ruler of this world.
This is not an explanation. It is an assertion. For as I said above, Genesis 1:26 only says that man had dominion over ANIMALS. Are you aware of verses that indicate man had dominion over the laws of physics?
quote:
All of creation is out of whack, magma rotates, unnecessarily, tectonic plates slide around, unnecessarily, the weather leaves equilibrium, unnecessarily.
This is true in scenario 1) above, too. It proves nothing about how WE cause it or how WE can reverse it. Nor am I aware of any verse that SAYS we can reverse this "corruption" of physical laws/conditions.
quote:
"Primitive" man (primitive? they invented all the useful stuff like wheels, we only invented crap, like television) recognizes the spirits all around us in nature.
"Modern" man removes himself from nature and explains everything away. He is as wrong about spiritual things as he is wrong about the benefits of fast food restaurants.
This also proves nothing about how WE cause the "corruption" of physical laws or how WE can reverse such "corruption."
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/4/2005 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | jefscott
quote:
I'm looking at Gen 3:17 & 18 right now. Can't for the life of me see how it precludes God as the effectual cause of the earth's cursing. Can you help me?
Ron
Like I said, you just blew over it. And Again.
because of you (man) the cause, not God, Adam.
quote:
Gen. 3:17 "But to Adam he said, Because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You must not eat from it, cursed is the ground thanks to you; in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, but you will eat the grain of the field. NET Bible
Notes: The Hebrew phrase (ba' aburek) is more literally translated "on your account" or "because of you" The idiomatic "thanks to you" in the translation tries to capture the point of this expression.
jefscott
quote:
Exactly! Which is why when Hebrews says "our God is a consuming fire," it might as well say "JESUS is a consuming fire." And when Romans says "behold the kindness AND SEVERITY of God," it might as well say "behold the kindness AND SEVERITY of JESUS!"
Ron
Don't confuse the end of the age with now, some of these things are relative to the times and seasons the Father has in His power. This is the probationary grace period, Jesus is the Lamb of God, Savior, and Lord. I agree He will draw the sword at some time, but now the Lord is longsuffering not willing that any should perish. I know Jesus will come again with vengeance 2 Thess. 1:6-10. So whats the issue? Can you tell me what you are trying to prove in a paragraph or two?
Peace
Ron
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/4/2005 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Ron,
quote:
quote:
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I'm looking at Gen 3:17 & 18 right now. Can't for the life of me see how it precludes God as the effectual cause of the earth's cursing. Can you help me?
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Ron: Like I said, you just blew over it. And Again.
because of you (man) the cause, not God, Adam.
Couldn't I just as easily say that "because" I work evil, I will be judged by God for that evil? But whose doing the judging? GOD!! The word "because" doesn't in the least PROVE that I am the efficient cause of my own judgement. God IS! I am merely the efficient cause of the OCCASSION for God's judgement. The same can be true in Genesis. And unless you can prove to me that Adam had such supernatural powers as to be able to curse the ground, etc., I don't see how you have an argument.
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Jeff: Exactly! Which is why when Hebrews says "our God is a consuming fire," it might as well say "JESUS is a consuming fire." And when Romans says "behold the kindness AND SEVERITY of God," it might as well say "behold the kindness AND SEVERITY of JESUS!"
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Ron: Don't confuse the end of the age with now, some of these things are relative to the times and seasons the Father has in His power. This is the probationary grace period, Jesus is the Lamb of God, Savior, and Lord. I agree He will draw the sword at some time, but now the Lord is longsuffering not willing that any should perish. I know Jesus will come again with vengeance 2 Thess. 1:6-10. So whats the issue? Can you tell me what you are trying to prove in a paragraph or two?
I'm trying to prove exactly YOUR point. That SINCE Christ will come with vengeance in the future, it is perfectly conceivable that He or the Father or BOTH acted in a kind of JUDGEMENT in the cursing of the ground IN THE PAST. In other words, one has no right to get some touchy-feely impression from the Christ of the gospels and read that impression into everything Christ or the Father has or will do. I'm agreeing with your point and taking it to it's logical conclusion.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/4/2005 5:28 PM (GMT -6) | | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6777635/site/newsweek/
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/4/2005 5:36 PM (GMT -6) | | I thought the author's presumptions about Christianity were interesting. When beginning to comment on Islam, he writes: "Like the Bible, the Qur'an recognizes no natural laws independent of God's will." It's just assumed that nature does exactly what God tells it to do. With THAT presupposition, it truly is amazing that anybody would continue to believe.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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vangobel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 1/4/2005 10:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Doc,
quote:
Not suprising that the creation under THIS MUCH control by the evil one has occasional tusanmis that kill thousands now and then. Is it?
Before Augustine, this was the way of explain so called "natural" evil.
Gen. 1:29-31, The original creation was non-carnivorous, free of all violence.
Gen. 3 14ff. The original creation was devoid of sweat, thorns, thistles and death.
Rom 8:21 The entire CREATION Groans for the manifestation of the childeren of God.
Bottom line: Nothing operates the way it was supposed to. Its ALL under demonic corruption, down to the very laws of physics that produce death (entropy).
Only when we don't take the angelic and human rebellion seriously are we prone to blame creations evils on God.
Tom says he wants to have another debate on "natural" evil when he gets a big enough hammer  for it. If you find time to post to it, I would like your take on the following two questions:
1) How do you know that Satan was the actual CAUSE of sweat, thorns, thistles, pain in childbearing, serpents losing their legs, etc?
2) How do we KNOW that Satan has modified the laws of physics to cause "natural" evils?
It would seem to me that Genesis indicates that God is the cause of the ills in 1). And that being the case, I see no reason to assume that Satan MUST be the cause of tsunamis. Tsunamis may simply be side-effects of previous earth judgements and/or the inordinately postponed termination of this earth's physical system.
Thanks for any clarification you can provide!!
Does this mean God caused man to sin in Genesis. If God is 'the cause of the ills' then God created sin which is not what scripture teaches. Especially in light of Jesus and the cross.
No the Tsunami is tragically a result of a fallen world and the workings of Satan and his minions
Ray
God is good....and that's all right with me! | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/5/2005 2:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey all-
I guess I'm still too shocked over this to be able to analyze it yet.
I read yesterday about a 20-day old baby who survived on a matress. The baby was later found crying, but fine. Amazing. But then there's the story of an entire congregation that was in the middle of their Sunday worship when they were all swept away and died. An entire church...while worshipping God...was swept away and died. I'm incapable of believing God unconditionally predetermined this in eternity. Call me whatever, fine. I'm simply incapable of this belief of Piper's.
Laika, earlier on another thread I think you reminded Mephi that according to his view this tsunami was the one girl on the track which God compatabilistically brought about by switching the track to avoid 10 girls on another track. But that's not really accurate. The point about the tracks in the Carlie thread was only to say that WHEN God has such options available to him to work compatabilistically (within the confines of LFW and solidified character, etc.) it makes sense to say that his switching the track is entailed by his "doing all he can do to prevent evil and to minimize it where he can't prevent it." But such options aren't always available. I imagine some events are, as they are, apart from any available track-switching, unsuccessfully opposed by God.
But that's moral evil. I'd like sometime to work this out with regard to natural evil. Maybe the Carlie thread will apply. Maybe not. I don't know. But it's not the case with every evil event we see (moral or natural) that the event is automatically the lesser of several evil options God compatabilistically brought about. Sometimes there are no other tracks available down which to redirect the train. You either successfully stop it or you don't.
More later!
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/5/2005 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | jefscott
quote:
Couldn't I just as easily say that "because" I work evil, I will be judged by God for that evil? But whose doing the judging? GOD!! The word "because" doesn't in the least PROVE that I am the efficient cause of my own judgement. God IS! I am merely the efficient cause of the OCCASSION for God's judgement. The same can be true in Genesis. And unless you can prove to me that Adam had such supernatural powers as to be able to curse the ground, etc., I don't see how you have an argument.
Ron
Adam was made of the dust of the ground, God gave him the breath of life, it is possible, this is purely speculation, but the earth bringing forth of itself could be a relational thing with man. Man deviates from the wisdom of God and by this causes the earth to bring forth thorns ect. The new testament in Romans speaks of the whole creation waitng for the manifestation of the Sons of God. Then it speaks of it being brought into the renewed state of the Sons of God. Just because God used the word curse doesn't mean He cursed, just explaining what happened. Again this is speculation but has some biblical indicators. Maybe the creation has some unknown to date laws in relation to man within it and created that way by design? Possible, as possible as your theory of God being the cause.
jefscott
quote:
In other words, one has no right to get some touchy-feely impression from the Christ of the gospels and read that impression into everything Christ or the Father has or will do. I'm agreeing with your point and taking it to it's logical conclusion.
Ron
Take heed how you judge.
What right do you have to equate the message of forgiveness, grace, mercy, compassion, as revealed in Jesus Christ and reduce it to touchy-feely impressions. You are on the other end of the same spectrum. Mercy rejoices in judgement. It is nice you agree with my point but in my view your logical conclusion is faulty, just as my theory of first man-earth relationship may be. It seems to me the focus of saving grace in Messiah is the issue of the day which reveals the true character of the Father, which I think should be the logical conclusion.
Peace
Ron
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/5/2005 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
That's why I don't understand the hoopla in trying to get around God just DOING it. Can you explain the difference it makes to a theodicy?
Here's why I think laying evil at God's feet makes a difference to "theodicy".
Let's apply the idea of God being arbitrarily and capriciously evil to us to other relationships.
If a wife was only faithful half the time, would we be satisfied? If she explained her infidelity as serving a mysterious purpose, that would someday understand, would that be acceptable to you? When she was with you and pledged undying love, would you believe her and trust her? I doubt it.
Growing up, if your dad every now and then, arbitrarily and capriciously whacked you on the head, and explained that it served a mysterious purpose that someday you would understand, would you accept that? When he put his arm around you affectionately, would you flinch? Sure you would, you don't know if he's going to whack you again.
So why do we apply this to God? He arbitrarily and capriously does evil to people, but it's a mysterious, hidden purpose that we will understand someday. When God tried to comfort us, we'd flinch.
I'm not talking about punishment from God, punishment is targeted, it's specific, you know why you're being punished and you're the sole target of the corrective punishment; it's a scalpel, not a blunt instrument.
Back to the tsunami. I read where one pastor said that the tsunami was God's punishment but we are to bring mercy to the survivors! ???
1. Wasting everyone that was near the Indian Ocean is not a targeted, corrective action. It's blunt destruction.
2. Why are we to oppose God's supposed punishment by bringing aid and suppressing the body count? We're fighting against God and His supposed "purposes" now. Disease, infection and starvation would be just as much a part of His supposed "plan" as the initial tsunami.
3. Satan sees an excellent opportunity to oppose God's "purposes" and be the one bringing mercy. Now the world is upside down. Try and convince someone that Satan is evil and God is good, when God is capriciously destroying hundreds of thousands of people and Satan is opposing Him by being merciful to these people. Let's work with Satan in opposing God's evil by bringing aid to these people.
We rejected this idea of an arbitrary, capricious God a long time ago, there's no comfort in it. We expect 100% fidelity in our human relationships, let's expect 100% fidelity in our relationship with God. If a "purpose" is hidden, how do you know it's there?
Laika,
The volume of notes you have posted within the last day or two, especially in the thread "John Piper's Response to the Tsunami" (http://tinyurl.com/6lxwm) raises two sets of questions in my geriatric but still observant mind.
First, why does what John Piper believes stir such animus in you? Are your beliefs so insecure that anything John Piper says about God that goes contrary to your beliefs about God stirs you so deeply that you have to retaliate with ad hominem arguments and hostility? Or, is it that you simply despise both John Piper and the God whom John Piper worships, proclaims, and upholds for others to worship?
Second, what if you are wrong and John Piper is right concerning God? Do you ever give any thought to this before you retaliate with your amazing and shocking statements? Wouldn't it be reasonably advisable to temper your statements concerning both Piper and the God he preaches in case he is right and you are wrong? Wouldn't it be wiser to acknowledge that God has not fully revealed himself to us? Wouldn't it be more prudent to accept the likelihood that God is largely hidden from us because, were he to reveal himself fully to us, we would be consumed?
Do you ever ponder whether you may be wrong and John Piper may be right? What if John Piper truly knows God as he has revealed himself, though by his own humble confession acknowledges that he does not fully know God, hence his talk of mystery, which you mock and deride? What if your statements about God exhibit neither true knowledge of God as he has revealed himself and that you are actually wrong? Will you face God in the Day of Judgment with the same confidence and tone with which you presently make your statements?
As for me, since God has not fully disclosed himself to me, through his spoken and written word or through his incarnate Word or through his created and providential deeds, I will continue to acknowledge that when a tsunami occurs, such as in the Indian Ocean, that God works in a mysterious way as he performs his wonders. I shall continue to do so because of what God has revealed about himself, especially in his written word, the Scriptures, by which we truly know God. God is not in the defendent's box; humans are. What shall we plead when we stand before the awesome God who reveals himself in the storm and in the calm?
God is in heaven and we are upon the earth, so let our words be few.
Gerry | | Back to Top | | |
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