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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/5/2005 4:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
Wouldn't it be wiser to acknowledge that God has not fully revealed himself to us?
If God has not revealed Himself to you and piper, why speak so authoritatively on Him then? If you and piper are ignorant of His goodness, best stay quiet and learn something of Him.
And I see you have no rebuttal to the scriptural and logical statements I've put forth.
Wow! Did you reflect at all upon the questions I kindly raised for you to ponder? Within a few brief moments after I posted my note you had already responded. You're truly amazing!
May God be merciful to you.
I said what I thought necessary and loving to say to you. Now I leave you to bash on John Piper and on the God he worships.
Gerry
P.S. I had no intention to defend John Piper or his God against your exegetical or logical arguments. I addressed you merely as a Christian brother who wanted to caution you about your manner of speech. Since you brushed aside my caution, I have nothing more to say, and I certainly have no interest to argue with you. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/5/2005 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | |
John,
"Retrospective diagnosis" is guesswork, at best.
Peace & blessings,
<><
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/5/2005 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
John,
"Retrospective diagnosis" is guesswork, at best.
Peace & blessings,
<><
We have plenty of evidence to support the idea that Hitler was indeed a sociopath. Like "Mein Kampf," for starters, not to mention solid first-hand evidence of the way he interacted with (insert: dominated, used, and murdered) people.
But that said, why is it somehow acceptable to insist that people are "born gay?", as you do, based on the same principle of "retrospective diagnosis," if in fact you deny the very validity of "retrospective diagnosis?" We certainly cannot psychologically examine a newborn baby to see if he is indeed "born gay."
It's nothing but an attempt at retrospective diagnosis to dogmatically insist that anyone is "born gay," simply because they say "I've always known I was gay."
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/5/2005 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Mayflower: "Retrospective diagnosis" is guesswork, at best.
Tom: I would have thought looking back over a person's entire life, taking it ALL in, would yeild a more accurate diagnosis of a person than otherwise.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/5/2005 3:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Ron,
jefscott
quote:
Ron: Adam was made of the dust of the ground, God gave him the breath of life, it is possible, this is purely speculation, but the earth bringing forth of itself could be a relational thing with man.
Genesis 2 says God made the animals from the ground, too. Are we supposed to speculate that they, too, had a relational thing with the ground?
quote:
Again this is speculation but has some biblical indicators.
An indicator must not be equivocal. It must lean in one direction and away from another. What are the indicators you speak of?
quote:
Possible, as possible as your theory of God being the cause.
Theory? Isn't it obvious that God had a REASON to curse the ground?
quote:
Ron: Take heed how you judge. What right do you have to equate the message of forgiveness, grace, mercy, compassion, as revealed in Jesus Christ and reduce it to touchy-feely impressions.
I've done no such thing, Ron. I accept the whole revelation of who Christ is. And He was THAT KIND of person yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Or at least the scripture says so.
quote:
Ron: Take heed how you judge.
Same to you, bro. The scripture says don't ADD or TAKE AWAY. Speculation is ADDING. Denying the SEVERITY of God is TAKING AWAY. Be not many teachers for they shall receive the GREATER JUDGEMENT!
quote:
What right do you have to equate the message of forgiveness, grace, mercy, compassion, as revealed in Jesus Christ and reduce it to touchy-feely impressions.
I don't, Ron. You and I are BOTH experiencing the ills of the Fall aren't we? So how does that prove God unmerciful? And if it doesn't prove God unmerciful, then how does it prove Him unmerciful if He cursed the ground Himself? What's the big difference? That's what I can't see for the life of me.
quote:
You are on the other end of the same spectrum.
Let's see: I'm an open theist who believes in free-will and that evil definitely does NOT originate in God or His original plan. Now if that makes me on the other end of the spectrum, I guess Calvinists aren't even IN the spectrum!! They'll be glad to know that!!!
quote:
Mercy rejoices in judgement.
Do you believe that our merciful God will torment some people for their rebellion against Him? If so, how can sweating and child-bearing pain disprove God's mercy?
quote:
It seems to me the focus of saving grace in Messiah is the issue of the day which reveals the true character of the Father, which I think should be the logical conclusion.
So the Hebrews were supposed to sit around for millenia waiting on the gospels to be written before they even attempted to infer WHO cursed the ground? Don't you think they had an idea as soon as they read it?
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/5/2005 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | jefscott
Genesis 5:29 could have ended this conversation a long time ago. I concede.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/5/2005 7:39 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings John & Tom:
Mayflower wrote:
quote:
Was Hitler a sociopath? I don't know.
John wrote:
quote:
You're kidding, right?
No, I am not kidding.
I do not know if research exists that has definitively identified Hitler as fitting the criteria for a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder; however, such would not surprise me.
John wrote:
quote:
Hitler would be just about the most antisocial, genocidal, maniacal, cruel, demonic, satanic sociopath imaginable.
I agree 100%.
Hitler that was one of the most hideous monsters that ever walked the earth. And, (inmho) he could have been a sociopath.
HOWEVER, I reiterate that this is my "opinion."
A clinical diagnosis would have to be based upon more than speculation.
So, while we can *speculate* that Hitler must surely have been a
sociopath ( ! ) -- this cannot be known with certainty unless his developmental history (which would hopefully include birth & early childhood development, family, relationships, etc.) indicates that he met the clinical criteria.
I agree with you Tom; it would be necessary for as much historical information as possible, to clarify differential diagnosis.
Does Hitler's case history exist?
I do not know.
Note:
SOCIOPATHS ARE NOT INSANE.
It has also been speculated that Hitler *could* have been clinically insane; if this is true, he would not meet the diagnostic criteria for sociopath (i.e., referred to as Antisocial Personality Disorder in the DSM-IV). He could be one or the other; not both.
Was Hitler a sociopath? Or,
was he insane?
I don't know.
What we do know is that he was a monster.
.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 1/5/2005 8:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
From dictionary.com:
quote:
sociopath
n : someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been superseded by `sociopath') [syn: psychopath]
psy·cho·path (sk-pth)
n.
A person with an antisocial personality disorder, especially one manifested in perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior.
Now of course I don't have anything to offer more than a layman's opinion, but it seems to me that anyone taking the generally accepted definition of the synonymous terms, "sociopath" and "psychopath," would undeniably conclude that Hitler was indeed a sociopath/psychopath.
John
Hi,
I sincerely wish I had time to read this thread, but I'll post my reply to the original question alone, and beg forgiveness later! 
If it were a poll, I'd say "no" I was enjoying Dr Boyd's sermon dealing with this today (online), if "enjoying" is truly the right word, probably not...but, I definitely think this is natural evil. "This an enemy has done." As Jesus spoke to the waves, and rebuked them, He would have spoke to this wave. I'm sorry that He didn't. I don't understand why He didn't, but I know His character, and can "drop anchor" there. I see who He is reflected in the life and ministry of His Son, and do not doubt that this was not by design.
I hope that thousands take comfort in that, and are not confronted by "well-meaning" believers, who warn them about the judgement of God. God forbid we should add to this pain. Having said that, we may have played a part in this wave. Even as the Butterfly Effect tells us that the flap of a butterfly wing in one continent may cause a hurricane in another continent several months later, it is possible that our choices, even our lifestyle is contributing to what we are seeing as natural evil. I have no doubt the enemy is involved in that. He uses our choices to do his dirty work.
I also have no doubt that the Father is bringing good from this tragedy, and that we can be involved in that as well. This touches everyone. People all over the world will be reminded how precious, how precarious, how arbitrary life really is. People are coming to know Him because they are searching for answers. That does not make me glad this has happened. It is heart-breaking, and I worship a Father who is heartbroken over the loss, the pain, and the suffering that He sees.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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