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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/29/2004 2:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | John,
quote:
Luke 13:
1 There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
God loves people, but that doesn't mean He is having a loving relationship with them. In fact, His wrath is ABIDING on most. When Scripture says that the Lord chastens those He loves, it is indicating that there is a difference between God acting benevolently towards His enemies and having a loving relationship with His elect. The same is true for us. I think that's why Christ can answer so matter of factly about tragedy in Luke 13. It is not that Christ was utterly insensitive. He IS sensitive - to human dignity AND it's debasement by sin.
So, does God see the tsunami as tragic? Of course, especially to the innocent, young ones. But His wrath was abiding on many of it's victims. So He might, if He was inclined to comment on it to the world, use it as a warning to sinners as Christ used the falling of the tower, rather than reassure the world how tragic He finds it. For the one implies the other - i.e., God's sensitivity to human dignity implies God's hate of sin (the debasement of human dignity).
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/29/2004 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
God loves people, but that doesn't mean He is having a loving relationship with them. In fact, His wrath is ABIDING on most. When Scripture says that the Lord chastens those He loves, it is indicating that there is a difference between God acting benevolently towards His enemies and having a loving relationship with His elect. The same is true for us. I think that's why Christ can answer so matter of factly about tragedy in Luke 13. It is not that Christ was utterly insensitive. He IS sensitive - to human dignity AND it's debasement by sin.
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your input. However, I don't see how God's wrath would or could be abiding on little children, of whom Jesus said, "Of such is the kingdom of God."
On the other hand, since I believe children who die at an early age are covered by God's grace and enter heaven, perhaps it could be argued that the brief suffering they had to endure was nothing compared to the glories of the new dimension they found themselves in.
I appreciate the feedback, and still continue to ponder over all this.
Jo-Anne: I appreciate your sentiment. It is certainly a difficult issue to sort out. (One of the chief liabilities all egg-head intellectuals like me must bear).
John
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/30/2004 1:55 AM (GMT -6) | | This is the "Carlie" thread on natural evil. If we weren't coming to an end in a day, t'would be nice to hammer some stuff out.
You universalists can go take a vacation on this one. Since everybody makes heaven in the end, it doesn't really matter what happens here. In fact, same goes for moral evil too eh?
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/30/2004 2:49 AM (GMT -6) | | 
Yeah, perhaps. Gotta find a big enough hammer!
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/30/2004 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tigress is right.
One more post might be nice...!
quote:
Zosima
USA
666 Posts
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 12/30/2004 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/30/2004 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Seeeeelah! Yo Sis, whaz up?
We just drove back home here to VA from FL last night. Had a great time. When we finally made it to Orlando to visit family there it was cold. But we still spent one day at EPCOT.
I'm back in Beirut in January for a couple of weeks (until the 18th), and then right down to FL again for a couple months of speaking engagements. When I'm able to settle back in and visit the new site I'll be ready to plunge into (I hope) natural evil. But only if Mephi is game! You gotta convince him on your end.
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 12/31/2004 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | calvinnhobbes, thanks for the "driveby!" I'm always thankful when people post references that have been helpful to them (in some way) personally. Collecting multiple perspectives seems to be the only way to move toward some sort of workable conclusion that allows my mind to rest...at least for now. One cool thing about God is that there is so much to learn, so much to talk TO Him about, and so much to discuss with each other that I never feel alone...and certainly am never board.
Hope you make it to the other board at least once in a while. Blessings, love,selah
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Tom,
Well, helloooo. Did you just tell me that you'll be in FL again for a couple MONTHS in Jan.? Ok, from now on, I want YOUR job. So let it be written, so let it be done!  I'm going to the AOG and to the speakers union. Someone better take me on by next winter...or else um...or else I'll be all cold and  . And that is evil. So...
Ok more importantly. I really do look forward to a discussion on Natural Evil and will try to convince Mephi to participate. Maybe we can set up some sort of rules regarding time. (I think Meph has shared that tthat has been a burden for him in the past.)
A possible solution could be that everyone agrees to check in at least once a week. That way the poster doesn't have to wonder if she/he's being ignored (etc) and could be assured that if there's no reply to their post immediately the others must be exceedingly busy and will get to them asap... if we all commit to this and follow through (posting when we are able and not leaving each other perpetually hanging) I think the pressure to respond would be relieved. Then we could put time into our posts AS time allows.
What do you think?
Blessed New Year to all,
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/31/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by CalvinnHobbes
My props out to the agnostic thesis response to evidential arguments from evil. See William Alston and William Rowe's interaction in The Evidential Argument from Evil, (coedited by Eleanore Stump and Daniel Howard-Snyder).
A good friend of mine recently finished his PhD in philosophy at SLU under Dr. Stump. I'll try to see if I can get him to join us in some discussion. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/31/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Anybody read Jay Wesley Richards' The Untamed God?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/31/2004 11:22 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by TGB
Anybody read Jay Wesley Richards' The Untamed God?
Greg: I did. I read everything.  Over all good overview of the issues.
BUT, as with most ,modern theologies, doesn't give sufficient due to the place Satan plays in the prsent cosmos. He's call "the ruler" of the world (3 times by Jesus in Jn 12,13, and 16), the "god of this age" (2 Cor 4:4;) the "principality and power of the air (Eph 2:2), who "controls the entire world" (I Jn 5:19). He is the one who holds the "keys to the power of death" (Heb 2:14).
Not suprising that the creation under THIS MUCH control by the evil one has occasional tusanmis that kill thousands now and then. Is it?
Before Augustine, this was the way of explain so called "natural" evil.
Gen. 1:29-31, The original creation was non-carnivorous, free of all violence.
Gen. 3 14ff. The original creation was devoid of sweat, thorns, thistles and death.
Rom 8:21 The entire CREATION Groans for the manifestation of the childeren of God.
Bottom line: Nothing operates the way it was supposed to. Its ALL under demonic corruption, down to the very laws of physics that produce death (entropy).
Only when we don't take the angelic and human rebellion seriously are we prone to blame creations evils on God.
Be the kingdom -- in the midst of a creation that groans.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/31/2004 11:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Doc,
I really value your input on this. Thanks for responding. I have some responses below.
My first thought is, "I thought you believed in Christus Victor, not "Satan Still Rules and Reigns." (grin)
quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
...BUT, as with most ,modern theologies, doesn't give sufficient due to the place Satan plays in the prsent cosmos. He's call "the ruler" of the world (3 times by Jesus in Jn 12,13, and 16),
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
(The above all seem to clearly refer to Christ's victory "judgment" over the prince of this world, not that satan would continue to reign).
quote:
the "god of this age" (2 Cor 4:4;)
Adam Clarke has the following insightful comments on 2 Cor. 4:4:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world, etc.—We see here that those whose minds are blinded, are they who believe not; and because they believe not, their minds continue in darkness, and are proper subjects for Satan to work on; and he deepens the darkness, and increases the hardness.
quote:
who "controls the entire world" (I Jn 5:19).
If "world" here indicates the entire planet earth, how does this square with God and Christ being the King of glory, Creator of all things, Omnipotent, etc.? If on the other hand this refers to the voluntary moral slavery that all who obey Satan are under, it presents no problem for theodicy as far as I can tell.
quote:
He is the one who holds the "keys to the power of death" (Heb 2:14).
Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
It doesn't sound to me like Jesus failed in his mission to "destroy" him that had the power of death; does it to you?
quote:
Not suprising that the creation under THIS MUCH control by the evil one has occasional tusanmis that kill thousands now and then. Is it?
I'm having a hard time seeing how Satan is not stronger than God in the scenario you propose.
quote:
Before Augustine, this was the way of explain so called "natural" evil.
Gen. 1:29-31, The original creation was non-carnivorous, free of all violence.
Gen. 3 14ff. The original creation was devoid of sweat, thorns, thistles and death.
Rom 8:21 The entire CREATION Groans for the manifestation of the childeren of God.
Bottom line: Nothing operates the way it was supposed to. Its ALL under demonic corruption, down to the very laws of physics that produce death (entropy).
That's really interesting. Besides God at War and S&TPOE, what scholarly books (or even particular writings of the early church fathers) would you recommend for research on this subject?
quote:
Be the kingdom -- in the midst of a creation that groans.
Amen. Thy kingdom come, Lord.
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/1/2005 4:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc,
quote:
Not suprising that the creation under THIS MUCH control by the evil one has occasional tusanmis that kill thousands now and then. Is it?
Before Augustine, this was the way of explain so called "natural" evil.
Gen. 1:29-31, The original creation was non-carnivorous, free of all violence.
Gen. 3 14ff. The original creation was devoid of sweat, thorns, thistles and death.
Rom 8:21 The entire CREATION Groans for the manifestation of the childeren of God.
Bottom line: Nothing operates the way it was supposed to. Its ALL under demonic corruption, down to the very laws of physics that produce death (entropy).
Only when we don't take the angelic and human rebellion seriously are we prone to blame creations evils on God.
Tom says he wants to have another debate on "natural" evil when he gets a big enough hammer  for it. If you find time to post to it, I would like your take on the following two questions:
1) How do you know that Satan was the actual CAUSE of sweat, thorns, thistles, pain in childbearing, serpents losing their legs, etc?
2) How do we KNOW that Satan has modified the laws of physics to cause "natural" evils?
It would seem to me that Genesis indicates that God is the cause of the ills in 1). And that being the case, I see no reason to assume that Satan MUST be the cause of tsunamis. Tsunamis may simply be side-effects of previous earth judgements and/or the inordinately postponed termination of this earth's physical system.
Thanks for any clarification you can provide!!
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/1/2005 4:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Doc,
quote:
Not suprising that the creation under THIS MUCH control by the evil one has occasional tusanmis that kill thousands now and then. Is it?
Before Augustine, this was the way of explain so called "natural" evil.
Gen. 1:29-31, The original creation was non-carnivorous, free of all violence.
Gen. 3 14ff. The original creation was devoid of sweat, thorns, thistles and death.
Rom 8:21 The entire CREATION Groans for the manifestation of the childeren of God.
Bottom line: Nothing operates the way it was supposed to. Its ALL under demonic corruption, down to the very laws of physics that produce death (entropy).
Only when we don't take the angelic and human rebellion seriously are we prone to blame creations evils on God.
Tom says he wants to have another debate on "natural" evil when he gets a big enough hammer for it. If you find time to post to it, I would like your take on the following two questions:
1) How do you know that Satan was the actual CAUSE of sweat, thorns, thistles, pain in childbearing, serpents losing their legs, etc?
2) How do we KNOW that Satan has modified the laws of physics to cause "natural" evils?
It would seem to me that Genesis indicates that God is the cause of the ills in 1). And that being the case, I see no reason to assume that Satan MUST be the cause of tsunamis. Tsunamis may simply be side-effects of previous earth judgements and/or the inordinately postponed termination of this earth's physical system.
Thanks for any clarification you can provide!!
Add to the questions above one further question. Given Greg's reference to Romans 8:21, any use of this passage must also address what the passage says and explain it. Please explain the role of God in the subjection of creation to frustration as featured in the highlighted words of the apostle Paul's saying in Romans 8:20-21.
"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/1/2005 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | FYI
Quote by Greg Boyd in the Kansas City Star today. Title of the article was "Why does God allow this?"
Among other comments by other writers and other religion's perspectives, the journalist quotes Greg.
"I don't think it's ever helpful or necessary to ask, "Why did God allow or cause a natural disaster?"
says the Rev. Greg Boyd, senior pastor of Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul Minn. and author of "Is God to Blame?" "Moving Beyond Pat Answers to the Problem of Evil" and "Satan and the Problem of Evil."
" If a person's faith is rooted in the New Testament, as mine is," Boyd says, "then their picture of God is centered on Jesus Christ. And Jesus didn't go around causing natural disasters. So I don't have any grounds for assuming natural disasters are ever God's will."
Because the first humans sinned, Boyd says, "the laws of nature have been corrupted (and) don't all operate now the way God originally intended them to. Now that doesn't mean there's a demon behind every tsunami or hurricane, but it means that if it wasn't for the angelic and human rebellion, we wouldn't have tsunamis or hurricanes or Aids or anything of the sort."
Peace
Ron
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/2/2005 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Thanks for posting the excerpt, Ron.
Greg's reply was excellent.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Article By Bill Tammeus
'Why does God allow this? '
SOURCE: Kansas City Star, 01/01/2005
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/living/10544631.htm?1c
Or,
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascitystar/living/religion/10544631.htm
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/2/2005 5:39 PM (GMT -6) | | jeffscott
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because the first humans sinned, Boyd says, "the laws of nature have been corrupted (and) don't all operate now the way God originally intended them to. Now that doesn't mean there's a demon behind every tsunami or hurricane, but it means that if it wasn't for the angelic and human rebellion, we wouldn't have tsunamis or hurricanes or Aids or anything of the sort."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the clarifying info Ron! But one can agree with the above statement and still believe that it was God who caused thorns, thistles, sweating, post-fall carnivory, etc.
Ron
Not necessarily, you can believe it if you want, but I believe the following translation.
Gen. 3:17 "But to Adam he said, Because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You must not eat from it, cursed is the ground thanks to you; in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, but you will eat the grain of the field. NET Bible
Notes: The Hebrew phrase (ba' aburek) is more literally translated "on your account" or "because of you" The idiomatic "thanks to you" in the translation tries to capture the point of this expression.
Peace
Ron
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