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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > The deadly tsunami should drive us to our knees in | Forum Quick Jump
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 6:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Laika YHWH: God doesn't "kill 'em all" and sort them out later.
Spen: I think that He does and it seems that scriptures confirm this. it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. Every person that has lived since God created the first couple has died, and this as the result of God's decree (not counting Enoch or Elijah). God told them in the garden that they would die and they have because of God's decree. Whether He does this quickly or does this slowly, the net result is the same - the righteous die with the wicked and then, at the end, God will indeed sort it all out.
Regarding death:
It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner;
It it a fact that God has people die quickly in a flood, slowly with cancer, or even more slowly with old age. The only change is in process, not the result. The wicked and righteous have died together because of God for thousands of years and your God concept has a problem with both the scriptures and the factual evidence around you. The amazing thing is not that people have been dying but that God offered eternal life through His Son to all and, because some accepted this gift and repented, some of those who die will actually live forever.
Spen Lake
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Yahweh Carleone
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Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 1/6/2005 7:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Laika YHWH: God doesn't "kill 'em all" and sort them out later.
Spen: I think that He does and it seems that scriptures confirm this.
At the end of the age.
Look at the battle of Jerico:
God removes His people, Rahab, from Jerico before He, undivided, with His army destroys Jerico.
Yet God's army suffered some casulties from Satan during the battle.
That's what spiritual war is about, God and us, undivided, fighting a real enemy who can inflict casulties.
God removes His people before He lays waste, sparing the wheat from the same fate as that of the tares.
No death by "friendly fire" with God, He's a more skilled battle commander than that.
The tsunami had all the hallmarks of Satan's attack. Total devastation, believers and non-believers alike, wheat with the tares.
And we can work with God, a house undivided, to combat the spread of infection, disease and starvation and suppressing Satan's body count.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 8:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika YHWH:
Yes, Satan is killing people now. I agree.
Spen: It is God Himself who decreed death in the garden. The angel of the Lord killed Herod. If Satan is killing people now is is because God decreed that he could in the garden. God then is ultimately responsible for the decree even as Adam is responsible for sinning against it.
Laika YHWH: God, however, will not destroy the goats until He can separate the sheep from them.
Spen: This is true. This is why the temporal death is not the destruction of the sheep. This separation happens post-death at the end before a throne, not because of a tsunami. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.You misjudge by implying the temporal death is the destruction. The real destruction is being cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death that the sheep are separated from.
Laika YHWH: Just because people are dying doesn't mean God has a hit out on them. The casulties God and His army suffered taking Jerico disprove that.
Spen: God had abondoned Israel, I am not sure if that means He had a "hit" out on them. He allowed Satan to destroy because He decided not to be with them. He stated, "they have become accursed. I will not be with you anymore." The Jericho casualties prove that God will allow Satan to kill "innocent soldiers" by withdrawing His protection and not being with them. He allowed them to march to their death without even a proactive warning other than, "do not sin."
Laika YHWH:
You still got two big problems that you cannot answer:
1. scriptural support of leaving the tares with the wheat to spare the wheat, until they can be separated at the end of the age, God's examples of removing His people before any others are destroyed.
Spen: You must prove, "the righteous will not be subjected to God's decree of temporal death along with the wicked" is the meaning of the text. Scriptures and the history of thousands of years tells us that the righteous die along with the wicked. Righteous Jonathan died in the same battle with wicked Saul. God may choose to spare someone from death, righteous or otherwise, but this has nothing to do with the tares and the wheat. The separation between the wheat and tares is NOT temporal death but the lake of fire.
Laika YHWH: 2. logical support that God and His people are not divided in their purposes
Spen: There is no divided purposes. Those that are dead, I cannot legally speak with or minister to. Those whom God has allowed to live and showed mercy on, these I show compassion and share His gospel. Nothing is divided. I simply express mercy on all those that God has showen mercy as evidenced by the fact that they live and are still in the age of grace and still have the capacity to repent.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika YHWH: You're assuming that the tsunami was caused by God, to kill many. Then you assume that the infection, disease and starvation that were caused by the tsunami are not caused by God. If God caused the tsunami, God caused the infection, disease and starvation as well.
Spen: I believe that God allows the infection, disease, starvation and pain to exist in as much as He doesn't intervene. I also believe that God allows draught to exist in as much as He doesn't intervene to stop it.
He can intervene but He chooses when and where. There were many lepers in Israel but God only healed Naaman. There were many widows in Israel but God only fed the one in Zarephath. Why, I don't know.
If God sends a draught (in this case through His prophet Elijah) and people will suffer, it is still appropriate and NOT divided for a man like Obadiah to hide and feed 100 prophets in a cave and those that could to feed the widows of Israel.
I see no contradiction and if you were in the tsunami and I was able, I would offer aid to you with no second thoughts.
Laika YHWH: We're not arguing whether people die or not, we're arguing who's doing the killing.
Spen: God made man innocent and gave a command and decreed a penalty of death on those who disobeyed. Man chose to disobey this command. The decree of God, death to man, was imposed. Whether God Himself killed as happened to Dathan, Uzzah, and Herod; or men killed as happened with Cain, David and Uzziah, or Stephen; or "natural disasters" killed as in the tsunami and disease - the point is that all will die because the direct decree of God. His decree is what kills them regardless of the process or method. His IS NOT DIVIDED but He is BOTH just and the justifier. He demands justice and pays the debt with the life os His only Son.
THIS IS NOT DIVISION. Your concept of God calls His justice and mercy two different gods and this is wrong. He is one God who is both just and merciful.
I won't be moving to the new site either. I would enjoy drinking a beer together with you even if you do have funny ideas about God.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 9:21 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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