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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/5/2005 2:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | http://www.worldmag.com/displayArticle.cfm?id=10185
Here are the initial paragraphs of another article by John Piper on the tsunami, for anyone interested.
Mercy for the living
The deadly tsunami should drive us to our knees in repentance
by John Piper
From pulpits to news programs, from The New York Times to The Wall Street Journal, the message of the tsunami was missed. It is a double grief when lives are lost and lessons are not learned. Every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for the living to repent. "Weep with those who weep," the Bible says. Yes, but let us also weep for our own rebellion against the living God. Lesson one: Weep for the dead. Lesson two: Weep for ourselves.
Repeat: Every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for the living to repent. That was Jesus' stunning statement to those who brought Him news of calamity. The tower of Siloam had fallen, and 18 people were crushed. What about this, Jesus? they asked. He answered, "Do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:4-5).
The point of every deadly calamity is this: Repent. Let our hearts be broken that God means so little to us. Grieve that He is a whipping boy to be blamed for pain, but not praised for pleasure. Lament that He makes headlines only when man mocks His power, but no headlines for 10,000 days of wrath withheld. Let us rend our hearts that we love life more than we love Jesus Christ. Let us cast ourselves on the mercy of our Maker. He offers it through the death and resurrection of His Son.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/5/2005 3:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Revelation 9:20 - And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Revelation 16:9 - And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Revelation 16:11 - And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Those verses have always puzzled me. But no doubt it is true that many will not heed the message of Christ about the tower that fell and killed many people who were just as guilty as anyone else in Jerusalem, by and large: "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't think we have to connect repentance with evil events. Repenting seems to have something to do with preparing the way of the Lord - in general. John the Baptist shouted it, Jesus echoed it, I feel the necessity of it when I approach God in prayer. I don't think it is the "point" of every deadly calamity. It's something we do (moment by moment)as we seek to live by the Spirit and walk in the light...amidst all the darkness (and other spirits) that surround and affect us for counter purposes in the kingdom of this world.
John piper. Again, interesting that he notes "weep with those who weep" and then seems to discard that in the rest of his theology. Can anyone show me a sermon of his where he suggests that we reflect the comfort of the Comforter to people who suffer? please John, Lesson one: weep (with the living) mourn and wail with them. Lesson two: don't proclaim that God is behind all their pain...or they may never speak to him. Lesson three: Repent of confusing God's character and reflecting a non-loving God to people in pain. If God is REALLY behind all this calamity I'm sure he can handle telling people He's mad.
thanks. gee.
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
I don't think we have to connect repentance with evil events. Repenting seems to have something to do with preparing the way of the Lord - in general. John the Baptist shouted it, Jesus echoed it, I feel the necessity of it when I approach God in prayer. I don't think it is the "point" of every deadly calamity. It's something we do (moment by moment)as we seek to live by the Spirit and walk in the light...amidst all the darkness (and other spirits) that surround and affect us for counter purposes in the kingdom of this world.
Have you read the Scripture where Jesus expressly makes it clear that calamities have one principal message: REPENT?
Luke 13:1-5
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesus reporting about the tower falling shows that we don't know how long we can expect to live, we could die at any time, therefore, repent while you have a chance.
Nothing indicating that your mobster idea of God is breaking fingers via calamities in order to force us into repentent.
In fact, the parable of the tares among the wheat show that God will not try to kill the evil people NOW, for fear of killing His people in the process. Not until the end of the age will God kill people enmass.
Also, anytime He did kill people enmass, He ALWAYS removed His people first, in this life.
"Repent, or I'll break another finger"
Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Yes, they not only think lightly, they ignore the riches of Your kindness and tolerance and patience that lead to repentance...
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: In fact, the parable of the tares among the wheat show that God will not try to kill the evil NOW, for fear of killing His people in the process. Not until the end of the age will God kill people enmass.
Spen: God, as the creator, has both the right and the power to kill the evil when and where He wishes. I agree with you that the parable of the tares indicates that He will not do this with ultimate thoroughness - kill ALL the evil - until the end of the age. This does not at all mean that he doesn't or cannot kill whatever evil He so wishes, like when He killed Herod as He blashpemed.
God Himself has given His sword to governments to kill evil as we see in Romans. This does not mean that no righteous are killed by governments in their use of God's sword that He gave them. Paul was ultimately killed by this sword of God. God allowed Nero to kill Paul with His sword. This was not evil for to Paul to live was Christ and to die was gain and Nero only accomplished for Paul what he was longing for anyways.
The lesson of the captivity is enough to tell us that God can and does judge regions, cities, cultures with devastation and all that are a part of this share in the destruction as Jeremiah did with Jerusalem. Daniel was carried away into captivity. Jeremiah was carried away into Egypt against the direct command of God, and he died there.
You believe that God, in His sovreignty, carved out an area where your will has supreme jurisdiction. Why is it so hard for you to believe that God, in His sovreignty can give to sinners what they deserve and call His children home to Him in the same act? This is not separating the tares from the, they are taken together. It is also not judgment on the Christians as they go on to glory.
You must also believe that God, in His sovreignty, carved out an area where Satan's will is supreme and we live there under Satan's control and subject to his whims. The sovreign God is somehow incapable of rescuing you from time to time, but you trust Him anyways because He is nice.
Spen Lake
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
You must also believe that God, in His sovreignty, carved out an area where Satan's will is supreme and we live there under Satan's control and subject to his whims.
2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Satan has blinded their minds, not the mob boss
John 12:
31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
"Draw" as in "break fingers" Jesus? Oh, the "kindness" of God leads to repentance.
John 14:30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me
1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
"The whole world", that's quite an "area".
"We have ways to make you repent"
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Have you read the Scripture where Jesus expressly makes it clear that calamities have one principal message: REPENT?
Luke 13:1-5
Personally, I think the desire to repent flows naturally out of a heart longing for light/love/deeper relationship with Christ MUCH more then it would from a heart that's perpetually in fear of calamity (especially calamity COMING from the ONE they are TURning Toward!) Think about it. OH calamity giver, let me turn toward you and away from sin...I want to be closer to YOU calamity giver...draw me close to you, never let me gooo....Thats hard to do.
Hold ME while you smite THEM.
In answer to your question, yes, I read it. Without studying, at first glance, Jesus seems to be making two points 1)all sin and fall short (THEY are no WORSE than YOU in their sin, you are equal), AND 2)ALL must come to repentance (or perish). I don't have a problem with that.
So what I see as the central message is "the equality of our guilt" or at the very most (again without looking deeper) "if you don't repent you will have calamity." I certainly do not see: "the purpose of calamity is repentance."
love
selah
Even if your interpretation was correct on those verses I can still stand by what I wrote "I don't think we HAVE To connect repentance with evil events." Check it out: Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
Trust me on this though, I do hear Jesus' "woe to you ____ and Woe to you ____" in scripture. This is one thing that confuses me regarding His character. What does that mean "woe to you?" Tom?
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Jesus reporting about the tower falling shows that we don't know how long we can expect to live, we could die at any time, therefore, repent while you have a chance.
Nothing indicating that your mobster idea of God is breaking fingers via calamities in order to force us into repentent.
In fact, the parable of the tares among the wheat show that God will not try to kill the evil people NOW, for fear of killing His people in the process. Not until the end of the age will God kill people enmass.
Also, anytime He did kill people enmass, He ALWAYS removed His people first, in this life.
"Repent, or I'll break another finger"
Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Yes, they not only think lightly, they ignore the riches of Your kindness and tolerance and patience that lead to repentance...
G-r-o-a-n! | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
Have you read the Scripture where Jesus expressly makes it clear that calamities have one principal message: REPENT?
Luke 13:1-5
Personally, I think the desire to repent flows naturally out of a heart longing for light/love/deeper relationship with Christ MUCH more then it would from a heart that's perpetually in fear of calamity (especially calamity COMING from the ONE they are TURning Toward!) Think about it. OH calamity giver, let me turn toward you and away from sin...I want to be closer to YOU calamity giver...draw me close to you, never let me gooo.
Thats hard to do.
In answer to your question, yes, I read it. Without studying, at first glance, Jesus seems to be making two points 1)all sin and fall short (THEY are no WORSE than YOU in their sin, you are equal), AND 2)ALL must come to repentance (or perish). I don't have a problem with that.
So what I see as the central message is "the equality of our guilt" or at the very most (again without looking deeper) "if you don't repent you will have calamity." I certainly do not see: "the purpose of calamity is repentance."
Even if your interpretation is correct on those verses I can still stand by what I wrote "I don't think we HAVE To connect repentance with evil events." see what I mean?
Trust me on this though, I do hear Jesus' "woe to you ____ and Woe to you ____" in scripture. This is one thing that confuses me regarding His character. What does that mean "woe to you?" Tom?
S-i-g-h! | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Hey gerry and spenlake,
Where did God bury Jimmy Hoffa?
I haven't the slightest clue why you would ask such a foolish question.
G-r-r-r-r-r! | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Gerry, sorry... in a hurry I was editing what I said and accidently pressed "post"
Please add this to your thoughts quote:
Even if your interpretation was correct on those verses I can still stand by what I wrote "I don't think we HAVE To connect repentance with evil events." Check it out: Mark 1:14Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
before you sigh ...
I gotta run.
love
selha
Oh, and sighing doesn't really give me any new info. Help me out G. Set me straight or something. Pax.
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Yahweh Carleone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
Gerry, sorry... in a hurry I was editing what I said and accidently pressed "post"
Please add this to your thoughts quote:
Even if your interpretation was correct on those verses I can still stand by what I wrote "I don't think we HAVE To connect repentance with evil events." Check it out: Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
before you sigh ...
I gotta run.
love
selha
Oh, and sighing doesn't really give me any new info. Help me out G. Set me straight or something. Pax.
Indeed, we do have to connect repentance to evil events because this is precisely what Jesus does in the account of Luke 13:1-5. Of course repentance is tied to other matters throughout Scripture, but Jesus expressly makes it clear that calamities, such as towers falling and crushing people to death (not because they are less righteous than others), bear one principal message: REPENT, or else you, too, will perish!
A sigh does communicate information, BTW. It communicated exactly what I wanted to say.
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Carleone
Gerry, what size boot do you wear?
Big enough! | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | Bye! Bye! Laika Carleone! I'm finished with your mockery of the one true God who has revealed himself in Scripture. | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 1/6/2005 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
...A sigh does communicate information, BTW. It communicated exactly what I wanted to say.
ok, that's fine. btw, I'm not your enemy,I'm your sister. I was being sincere when I asked for feedback. sorry if it didn't come across that way.
God bless you,
love
selah
My sigh did not signal enmity, just frustration. I didn't regard you as an enemy. That's why I did offer some feedback. 
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | These are the ones that God saved.
He led them safely, so that they did not fear;
But the sea engulfed their enemies.
So He brought them to His holy land,
To this hill country which His right hand had gained.
He also drove out the nations before them
And apportioned them for an inheritance by measurement,
And made the tribes of Israel dwell in their tents.
Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God
And did not keep His testimonies,
But turned back and acted treacherously like their fathers;
They turned aside like a treacherous bow.
For they provoked Him with their high places
And aroused His jealousy with their graven images.
When God heard, He was filled with wrath
And greatly abhorred Israel;
So that He abandoned the dwelling place at Shiloh,
The tent which He had pitched among men,
And gave up His strength to captivity
And His glory into the hand of the adversary.
He also delivered His people to the sword,
And was filled with wrath at His inheritance.
Fire devoured His young men,
And His virgins had no wedding songs.
His priests fell by the sword,
And His widows could not weep.
Spen Lake
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