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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/13/2005 1:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Hi Selah,
Sorry, but I won't have the time to give a decent response until this weekend. On one of the threads on this topic, there's a link to a discussion that Doc started early last year on Talbott's universalistic theory; my comments in that thread still reflect my views on this subject.
Essentially, my thoughts are that universalism (including Talbott's form) denies libertarian free will (the power of contrary choice), makes sin out to be a mere trifle, and makes the atoning blood of Christ absolutely unnecessary. Contrary to scripture, universalism provides forgiveness without repentance, salvation without conditions, and denies God's right to judge sin as He sees fit and as he has revealed in His Word.
That said, I can certainly see how universalism perfectly jives with the "love, not judgment" idea, which is one more reason why I find the LNJ paradigm fatally flawed--it makes God out to be the ultimate Mr. Nice Guy,  and does away with his role as Moral Governor, Judge, and Sovereign King of the Universe.
Hopefully sometime this weekend I will be able to reply further on this subject.
Blessings in Christ alone,
John
Post Edited (JEE) : 1/13/2005 12:52:14 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/13/2005 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
Mephi, I don't think you gave us your working definition of universalism (verbatim and succinct - as you gave it to me) on this thread, did you? It would be good to see what Tom has to say about that if you could construct it again or find it somewhere.
Trying to remember exactly what I said...
Succinct statement of my view:
In the end, God's love and justice are consummated by God's divine elimination of everything in Creation that is against the nature and being of God...and the purification of everything that can be redeemed to God. God, by his wisdom, in His love, and for His glorious purposes, has made Creation such that there is SOMETHING inherent in ALL sentient beings that can be redeemed. How MUCH of sentient beings that will be redeemed or eliminated...and the duration of the process...is genuinely up to the beings themselves. In other words, God is the SOLE agent of judgment (Judge) and redemption (Savior), while we genuinely affect how this agency will SUBJECTIVELY affect us, though the power of our decisions.
How's that?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/13/2005 1:12:53 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/13/2005 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE:(emphases mine)
Essentially, my thoughts are that universalism (including Talbott's form) denies libertarian free will (the power of contrary choice), makes sin out to be a mere trifle, and makes the atoning blood of Christ absolutely unnecessary. Contrary to scripture, universalism provides forgiveness without repentance, salvation without conditions, and denies God's right to judge sin as He sees fit and as he has revealed in His Word.
That said, I can certainly see how universalism perfectly jives with the "love, not judgment" idea, which is one more reason why I find the LNJ paradigm fatally flawed--it makes God out to be the ultimate Mr. Nice Guy, and does away with his role as Moral Governor, Judge, and Sovereign King of the Universe.
Hmmm..
Here are the threads on which I've been arguing for universalism:
Craig/Talbott Discussion
http://www.opentheismboard.org/beta/default.aspx?f=5&p=1&m=50111
More Practical Thoughts on Universalism
http://www.opentheismboard.org/beta/default.aspx?f=5&p=1&m=50239
Now I want everyone who has read the argumentation that I've been using...and who've read my succinct statement on this page...to answer me this question:
Does the view I've been arguing look ANYTHING...I mean ANYTHING...like the caricature that John has painted above??
Seriously. I'd like an answer. Let's do this.
How about YOU answer me, John?
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/14/2005 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Today's parable. Again, just wondering what (if anything) this says about the character of the King...
Matthew 22
1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 "Then he said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' 10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/14/2005 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | |
Selah said...
Today's parable. Again, just wondering what (if anything) this says about the character of the King... First thought, this is a parable -- with _one_ point -- and not an anaolgy.
Second, the "character of the King" is to come and die.
Third, the feature of the supreme ruler who judges (Christ WILL judge) needs also to be understood, as Meph said, as a stiff tonic to warn.
So, fourth, I think the approach of looking for God's character in what seems to be emphasized in your post may be building on some false assumptions. And perhaps we have to leave some things in mystery -- as we do our parents -- and just listen to what the Father and our Brother have to say, instead.
- one cent
"We are free not because we can choose, but only when we have chosen well." - Hart | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/14/2005 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
Thanks for getting me to stop and ponder on this. Not that I have any quick answers.
On a related topic, sometime I'd like help thinking through what is was about David or what it is about God that made David "a man after God's own heart". On the face of it, he exhibits thoughts, emotions, actions that I wouldn't consider very "godly". Probably this means my understanding of what it means to be godly is askew.
I do of course recognize that only Jesus is the full expression of God, but still there was something about David that pleased God that I want to learn from.
Specifically where I'm going with this: although I'm generally in agreement with Doc and his anabaptist views on pacifism, it's clear that David was no pacifist. Trying to put this together.
Corey
Post Edited By Moderator (Forum Administrator) : 1/20/2005 6:23:56 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/14/2005 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | AW... that reminds me of another parable...
Luke 18:1-8 1 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, 2 saying, "In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man. 3 "There was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, `Give me legal protection from my opponent.' 4 "For a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, `Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.' " 6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? 8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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