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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/15/2005 6:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | Two things confuse me regarding faith. 1) The fact that it seems to be primary - over and above reason in scripture - yet WE still DO reason most of the time when trying to understand God. 2) The fact that Christians everywhere experience the faithfulness of Christ...ongoing...despite the chaos in the world...and all the variables.
So I want to look at this. What I have now:
What is it:
Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
How do we get it:
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
What does it do:
Ro 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Heb 11:33 - (apparently) conquer kingdoms, perform acts of righteousness, obtain promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34 quench the power of fire, escape the edge of the sword, from weakness be made strong, become mighty in war, put
foreign armies to flight.
Who modeled it:
Noah
Enoch
Abe
Sarah
David
Jacob
Joseph
Moses
Rahab
Samuel
the prophets
the apostles
people who were healed
people who were forgiven sin
on and on...
Today's faith stories:
Mt: 21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
Mt 9:2 - And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Mt 9:22 - But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Eph 6:16 - ..take up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
What does faith (confident assurance) look, feel, sound like today...for us?
How is our faith lived out (moment by moment) practically?
What do we do with the tension between faith and reason?
How can selah turn off her thinking on this? 
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud LeePost Edited (Selah) : 1/16/2005 3:10:43 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/15/2005 11:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
I think that this is an important conversation. Let's go from here. The Hebrews author's perspective on faith.
_____________________________________________
Important context!
Heb 10
32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith. And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.”[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Heb 11
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age–and Sarah herself was barren–was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country–a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated– 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
More Important Context
Heb 12
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13“Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
_________________________
I want to answer your questions later...but I'd like to pose one here. It's pretty clear that that much of this part of Hebrews is to exhort against apostasy and encourage in the midst of persecution. But what I'd like to know is this. The author chooses to interpret the "hardship" that the Christian audience was facing as DIVINE DISCIPLINE unto character development. In other words, the author was saying that the free actions of persecutors were actually a means by which GOD was displining his people. Was THIS willed interpretation of the persecution AN ACT OF FAITH in God?? I mean, REALLY look at the Heb 12 section above. How is this not different from the way that many people REINTERPRET events such that God's good character is preserved in the midst of loss and suffering. I guess my ultimate question is:
Is it possible that faith INCLUDES creative theologizing (in different ways) which JUSTIFIES God in the midst of suffering?
[Digression: I think it's very interesting that the author mentions significantly that people who had faith and were praised for it many times DID NOT receive that for which they hoped. How some people who had faith got really screwed up. Perhaps faith includes is enduring in the midst of suffering..by means of the creative theologizing. Hmmmm]
More later...
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/15/2005 10:11:12 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 1/15/2005 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm sitting in our church office, doing a system scan, and your thread caught my eye. I've started coming here again, to be alone with God. (Home is too busy these days!)
Faith looks like us being salt and light, at least that is the evidence of faith, but as I was reading in Matthew this morning, I realized that I can be neither apart from my relationship with Him. We can look like the real thing, and be ineffective. And the only way that you can build a city on a hill is if you have a solid foundation.
Faith is relationship: with Him first, then with each other.
Jo-Anne  | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/16/2005 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | specifically:
Heb 10
32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith. And if he shrinks back,I will not be pleased with him.”[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Heb 11
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. Andby faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age–and Sarah herself was barren–was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country–a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faithAbraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.
26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again.
Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated– 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Heb 12
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13“Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
Without getting into the POE stuff, I read verses 3-12 as saying something like this: Remember that Christ kept faith even until death. (He did it. He made it. Fix your eyes on that.) And, no matter how much you go through, do likewise. It's worth it! HAVE FAITH that your suffering (like his) isn't for naught. It WILL produce a harvest and you will receive a reward GREATER than any earthly reward.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud LeePost Edited (Selah) : 1/16/2005 6:10:06 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/16/2005 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | In other words Meph, the point. It seems to me that you think the author is intending to make a point regarding suffering/hardship and justifying God. I don't see that as the central thesis here. Rather, I see the author trying to say "FAITH is what Got these people through, it's what will get YOU through, gee, it's what got CHRIST through!" Fix your eyes on that...no matter what. I agree his purpose for bringing this up was to exhort and encourage, but gee, look at what he used to persuade his audience. Exhortation and encouragement came through the means of looking at historical proof in the lives of real people - that faith avails. Note that the author didn't use one example, or two, or five...but a myriad of examples including the one of Christ Himself! What do you think that means? Faith is important, that's what that means.
Now, if you regard the author as credible and without ulterior motive in making his point on faith, that's another question. ;)
So,
Is it possible that faith INCLUDES creative theologizing (in different ways) which JUSTIFIES God in the midst of suffering?
I don't think so. If you're wondering about that based on the Heb 12 text, I don't see it justifying God. I see it pinning hardship ON GOD. Blaming God for it (all of it in fact). If we're supposed to feel better about hardship (as discipline or not) from THIS text, it's not working for me. Quite the opposite.
On the other hand, if we're supposed to focus on FAITH in the midst of suffering, EVEN IF that suffering comes from the hand of God himself, then this text is helpful because it encourages us to do just that.
presuppositions (both mine and yours) play a lot into how we read this stuff... as you know.
Someone who's lenses are clear...help us out!
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud LeePost Edited (Selah) : 1/16/2005 5:51:05 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/16/2005 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | I've been kinda obsessed on Heb 11:1 this weekend. Here's snapshot of a bit of what I've found so far (not that I have any training in greek):
"Now faith [pistis] is the substance [hupostasis] of things hoped for [elpizo], the evidence [elegchos] of things [pragma] not seen [blepo]"
Hupostasis: basic essence, nature, substance, foundation, basis, "that which stands under"
I was quite interested to learn that in the only other place hupostasis is found it is used to say Jesus is the exact representation of God's hupostasis:
Heb 1:3a says...
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature [hupostasis]...
I think there's a relationship here: Faith is to Hope as Jesus is to God. They're of the same essence; one is seen, one is not seen. Just as Jesus is the visible expression of the invisible God, so too Faith is the visible expression of our unseen Hope.
Just chewing. Could be way off here.
Corey
Post Edited (Corey) : 1/16/2005 8:11:30 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/16/2005 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
In other words Meph, the point. It seems to me that you think the author is intending to make a point regarding suffering/hardship and justifying God. I don't see that as the central thesis here. Rather, I see the author trying to say "FAITH is what Got these people through, it's what will get YOU through, gee, it's what got CHRIST through!" Fix your eyes on that...no matter what. I agree his purpose for bringing this up was to exhort and encourage, but gee, look at what he used to persuade his audience. Exhortation and encouragement came through the means of looking at historical proof in the lives of real people - that faith avails. Note that the author didn't use one example, or two, or five...but a myriad of examples including the one of Christ Himself! What do you think that means? Faith is important, that's what that means.
I don't think that the "viewing suffering/hardship as God's fatherly discipline" is the MAIN thing being said here. Not at all. I think that you hit it pretty much on the money: Faith gets one through, an ultimately, if not temporally, gets a great reward.
However...
1) It also seems very clear that there is some interpretation of the then-present situation going on to give the audience some type of framework for their then-present suffering with relationship to God.
2) The author goes to great lengths showing both how people DID receive what they hoped for...AND those who didn't, from a temporal point of view. (For the moment, we won't question the historicity of the Exodus or the walls of Jericho falling. Heh. ) The author is speaking from a Christian point of view that the Old Testament believers NEVER would have had. ANd on that basis seems to "work out" the fact that some of these people did NOT receive some of the temporal promises that they were supposed to receive from God. How? God gives them what they ULTIMATELY wanted supposedly...the city of God. This is cool, but I think this poses interesting questions in the lines od divine providence and the ability of God to carry out temporal saving acts.
[Digression: This seems like something I've seen in my experience more than a couple of times. When someone is REALLY believing and praying for a miraculous healing for a loved one...and it doesn't happen. THere are MANY times where the lack of healing gets REINTERPRETED in the following way:
"Well, now they have the ULTIMATE healing of being with God!"
Comforting as this is, this seems like a reinterpretation that's allowed by certain Christian understandings. And it works (for some) for the sticky problem of WHY a person or set of people who were standing in faith didn't receive a healing. Do we not see the same motif here in Hebrews??]
**********************************
Selah:
Now, if you regard the author as credible and without ulterior motive in making his point on faith, that's another question. ;)
Hey, the author's experience and motivation were his own...and God divinely used them to convey his point. Fine. Whatever. :P
**********************************
Selah:
Is it possible that faith INCLUDES creative theologizing (in different ways) which JUSTIFIES God in the midst of suffering?
I don't think so. If you're wondering about that based on the Heb 12 text, I don't see it justifying God. I see it pinning hardship ON GOD. Blaming God for it (all of it in fact). If we're supposed to feel better about hardship (as discipline or not) from THIS text, it's not working for me. Quite the opposite.
On the other hand, if we're supposed to focus on FAITH in the midst of suffering, EVEN IF that suffering comes from the hand of God himself, then this text is helpful because it encourages us to do just that.
It's interesting how you separate those points. I don't see them as separable in this text. I think that you see that the author is making BOTH POINTS (this "hardship" interpreted as coming from God AND having faith even when it comes from God)...plus one more. That when suffering comes from God it's ULTIMATELY for the believer's good. This is a FAITH-FILLED statement based on the author's understanding of God. This is theodicy in action, Selah.
All this understood, I'm wondering how you don't agree that faith can include creative theologizing in the midst of suffering. This has happened THROUGHOUT scripture, it seems. The reinterpretation of events given an ASSUMED understanding of God's good and loving character towards his people. It can be argued, I think, that the corporate interpretation of the Babylonian conquest and exile of God's people as divine judgement could be one example. This is just what theodicy people do too. Trying to make sense of things in their world given certain core understandings of God. It would seem to me that this would go hand-in-hand with having faith in what one knows about God.
So, how could faith IN NO WAY include creative theologizing to preserve an dogmatic idea of God in the face of adversity? I'd say this is a plain truth, given our history and experience.
***************************
Selah:
presuppositions (both mine and yours) play a lot into how we read this stuff... as you know.
Yes. Very much so. What do you feel are some of your presuppositions with respect to the issue of "faith"?
One of mine is the following: Personal faith CANNOT be separated from one's interpretations of events, ideas, or other things. This is because of the very subjective nature of faith.
When we say that we experience God as being faithful or something like that we are INTERPRETING events in our lives and (whether we know it or not) making the CHOICE, to a significant degree, to interpret things that we have heard or things that happen to us AS God being faithful. For me personally, whenever I do this...I have a particular statement that I make for myself...or when I talk to others. "I choose to interpret this as..." I use this whenever I am talking perpsectivally about divine or demonic activity. This reflects the fact that my interpretation and actuality are RELATED, though DISTINCT. My interpretation of things may, AT MOST, be indicative of reality...but not totally things as they are in any naive sense.
In short, I treat "faith" as the significantly chosen subjective approriation of something as "true", even in the face of objective uncertainty and ambiguity.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/16/2005 2:36 PM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal said...
Selah:
In other words Meph, the point. It seems to me that you think the author is intending to make a point regarding suffering/hardship and justifying God. I don't see that as the central thesis here. Rather, I see the author trying to say "FAITH is what Got these people through, it's what will get YOU through, gee, it's what got CHRIST through!" Fix your eyes on that...no matter what. I agree his purpose for bringing this up was to exhort and encourage, but gee, look at what he used to persuade his audience. Exhortation and encouragement came through the means of looking at historical proof in the lives of real people - that faith avails. Note that the author didn't use one example, or two, or five...but a myriad of examples including the one of Christ Himself! What do you think that means? Faith is important, that's what that means.
I don't think that the "viewing suffering/hardship as God's fatherly discipline" is the MAIN thing being said here. Not at all. I think that you hit it pretty much on the money: Faith gets one through, an ultimately, if not temporally, gets a great reward.
just want to quote this for the history. ... lock it in. Mephi you almost completely agreed to one of my points. OOO, now you can't edit this portion either. What now?
s.w.a.k.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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JEE
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| Posted 1/16/2005 3:36 PM (GMT -6) | | | In Hebrews 11, we don't find anyone exercising "blind" faith, as SK would define Abraham's faith.
Faith is wholehearted trust based on evidence; it is not, as the proverbial preschooler says, "Believing something to be true that you know is not."
In Romans 4, Abraham is commended for his faith, not because he "turned off his reasoning" and exerted "blind faith." Instead, the text says Abraham "was fully persuaded" of the reliability of God's character. This Abraham knew with a certainty--from his own past experience of God's faithfulness.
If we posit faith as somehow antithetical to reason, we really have no better reason for believing what we do than a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Muslim does.
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 1/16/2005 2:40:42 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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| Posted 1/16/2005 4:57 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hi Corey,
I was basing my comments on Selah's initial post, in which she said:
1) The fact that it seems to be primary - over and above reason in scripture - yet WE still DO reason most of the time when trying to understand God.
(End quote)
The above assertion sounded to me like it was placing faith and reason in opposition to each other.
In any case, it was certainly not my intention to push anyone's buttons, nor to battle any straw men (or women). 
Sincere blessings to you, Corey.
John
Post Edited (JEE) : 1/16/2005 4:09:48 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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| Posted 1/16/2005 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
ps John, do you know of any verses that say "by reason...so and so was healed, forgiven, moved mountains, or pleased God?"
Let me know, ok? Thanks.
Hi Selah,
The question begs the definition of faith. Perhaps this discussion would be more fruitful for all if we could come to an agreed upon definition of faith.
Do you know of any passages of scripture that say or imply that faith is blind, or that faith is just a hunch? In virtually every case in scripture where we find a person was healed, we find that there was a reason they had faith--their previous knowledge by observation of God's character and working; e.g., they saw others get healed by Jesus, and so they "reasoned/said within themselves" as the woman with the issue of blood did, that if they could just touch the hem of His garment, they would be made whole. They didn't just make a total leap into the unknown when they approached him for healing or deliverance; they KNEW He could do for them what he had done for others.
Blessings,
John
P.S.: I am definitely not saying or implying that faith is unimportant; all I am saying is that faith and reason must go together. We indeed do have a reasonable faith, or as the old CVM board headline said, "Faith that satisfies the mind, and inspires the heart." (Or something to that effect).
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 1/16/2005 4:28:03 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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| Posted 1/16/2005 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | | Selah said:
On the other hand, if we're supposed to focus on FAITH in the midst of suffering, EVEN IF that suffering comes from the hand of God himself, then this text is helpful because it encourages us to do just that.
John's response:
I think this other hand is the one to go with. I don't see anywhere in Hebrews 11 where the blame gets pinned on God for the trials, but it seems to me that who's to blame IS kind of a moot point--the purpose behind Hebrews 11 seems to be an encouragement for believers to persevere and not give up (see esp. ch. 12), and we are exhorted to have the same kind of faith as the people described here, who by faith obtained a good report and pleased God.
John
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selah
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| Posted 1/16/2005 6:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Thoughts...
"The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason."
Ben Franklin
"Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God."
Blaise Pascal
"Our faith comes in moments... yet there is a depth in those brief moments which constrains us to ascribe more reality to them than to all other experiences."
Emerson, Ralph Waldo
"Faith is an oasis in the heart which can never be reached by the caravan of thinking"
Kahlil Gibran
"Faith is a light of such supreme brilliance that it dazzles the mind and darkens all its visions of other realities, but in the end when we become used to the new light, we gain a new view of all reality transfigured and elevated in the light itself."
Thomas Merton
"To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless."
G. K. Chesterton
"If you examined a hundred people who had lost their faith in Christianity, I wonder how many of them would turn out to have reasoned out of it by honest argument? Do not most people simply drift away?"
C.S. Lewis
"Reason is the enemy of faith"
Martin Luther
"A living faith cannot be manufactured by the rule of majority"
Mahatma Gandhi
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Faith... is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods."
C.S. Lewis
hmmmm.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud LeePost Edited (Selah) : 1/16/2005 6:28:18 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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| Posted 1/16/2005 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | More thoughts:
"It is the heart which perceives God and not the reason. That is what faith is: God perceived by the heart, not by the reason."
Pascal, Blaise
"Faith, as Paul saw it, was a living, flaming thing leading to surrender and obedience to the commandments of Christ."
Tozer, A. W.
6 But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7 for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
James 1:6-7
"Faith is the highest passion in a human being. Many in every generation may not come that far, but none comes further."
Kierkegaard, Soren
"We are twice armed if we fight with faith."
Plato
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17
"Have faith in God."
Jesus
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
Helpful? I think so.
Blessings,
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud LeePost Edited (Selah) : 1/16/2005 6:45:31 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/17/2005 1:07 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
I'd like to deal with what I believe to be your essential point. That faith is, at least in part, the LIVED EXPRESSION of our OPTIMISTIC BELIEFS, that are based on those beliefs. I definitely think this is the case.
We're on the same page. It's the unseen stuff that I've got my hope set on that shapes how I live by faith today. Hope is intrinsically future-oriented, whereas faith is about how I respond to that now in the present moment.
MephEternal said...
What I think is VERY interesting is that this means that, as one's "hope" changes, the life of faith will necessarily change. Notice that it doesn't CEASE being faith! Not in the least. Even though that contour of that faith may change dramatically.
Right. There's going to be a lot of diversity in how faith manifests the hope within. Heb 11 lists some examples of ways people chose to live in light of their unseen hope. When I re-read that chapter, I now notice lots of couplings between the future promise (hope) and the present response (faith).
So my working definition for faith:
Faith is the present moment living-out of unseen hope. Faith is what happens when Hope moves into the present moment.
Heb 12:2 then takes on more concrete significance to me. "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith..." I can't help but respond in faith when Jesus is my Hope.
Post Edited (Corey) : 1/17/2005 1:03:03 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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| Posted 1/17/2005 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | mephi:However...
1) It also seems very clear that there is some interpretation of the then-present situation going on to give the audience some type of framework for their then-present suffering with relationship to God.
selah:Bonjour mephi. I agree, there's always some interpretation going on. If the main point is to look like Christ in your faith, then the other point could be to look like Christ in your suffering... sure. No problem there.
meph:2) The author goes to great lengths showing both how people DID receive what they hoped for...AND those who didn't, from a temporal point of view.
selah: right. this goes back to the original point. We may not see (externally in the TEMPORAL) the fulfillment of our hope...Jesus didn't. He had to fix his eyes on that which was unseen to make it through. He suffered, died, and was buried. So, we like Him, WILL see the fulfillment of our hope - eternally - this is GREATER then any temporal thing.
mephi:(For the moment, we won't question the historicity of the Exodus or the walls of Jericho falling. Heh. )
selahheh. Those darn bible liars!
meph: The author is speaking from a Christian point of view that the Old Testament believers NEVER would have had. ANd on that basis seems to "work out" the fact that some of these people did NOT receive some of the temporal promises that they were supposed to receive from God. How? God gives them what they ULTIMATELY wanted supposedly...the city of God. This is cool, but I think this poses interesting questions in the lines od divine providence and the ability of God to carry out temporal saving acts.
selah: True. Figuring out divine providence and the ability of God to carry out temporal acts (in general) poses some interesting questions. I guess what we CAN say is other variables are always at play...not just that God couldn't or wouldn't fulfill his (temporal) promises.
mephi: Digression: This seems like something I've seen in my experience more than a couple of times. When someone is REALLY believing and praying for a miraculous healing for a loved one...and it doesn't happen. THere are MANY times where the lack of healing gets REINTERPRETED in the following way:
"Well, now they have the ULTIMATE healing of being with God!"
Comforting as this is, this seems like a reinterpretation that's allowed by certain Christian understandings. And it works (for some) for the sticky problem of WHY a person or set of people who were standing in faith didn't receive a healing. Do we not see the same motif here in Hebrews??]
selah: Well, I think there is significant biblical support for both outcomes. (Some ARE healed when prayed for, ALL ARE healed in Heaven.) In our socio-linguistic context (and that of all christendom - even back in the day) it's common for people to talk about both as possible answers to prayer...because both ARE possible answers to prayer. No reinterpretation necessary. That's just the way things are. God's purposes, reaping what we sow, our faith, their faith, physical laws etc. all play a part of whether or not healing happens now...or later.
However...
I agree with you (write that down!!) It SEEMS like a reinterpretation because this "ultimate healing" thing is spoken about as a second-best scenario. Kind of like "well, now all we can do is pray" Ya, poor us, because that's not the most powerful thing we can do! gee.
Anyway, I think we would see more healing in the temporal...if we weren't of such little FAITH. Hence, the importance of faith again.
**********************************
mephi: Hey, the author's experience and motivation were his own...and God divinely used them to convey his point. Fine. Whatever. :P
selah: Whose point was conveyed? God's point. Whose point? God's point. Whose? God's! ok, just checkin' 
**********************************
meph: It's interesting how you separate those points. I don't see them as separable in this text. I think that you see that the author is making BOTH POINTS (this "hardship" interpreted as coming from God AND having faith even when it comes from God)...plus one more. That when suffering comes from God it's ULTIMATELY for the believer's good. This is a FAITH-FILLED statement based on the author's understanding of God. This is theodicy in action, Selah.
selah: I separated the two just for a pause (to calmly think about the intense insight I was giving you. HA). I didn't want to overwhelm your brain (loving of me, wasn't it?). {where's my little kissy face icon, corey?}
I think there's a misunderstanding here in terms of "theodicy in action." Namely, the three points you listed I don't think I made (intentionally anyway) so, let me clarify. Where you say 1)this hardship interpreted as coming from God 2)having faith even when it comes from God and 3) That when suffering comes from God it's ULTIMATELY for the believer's good.
I would say this: 1) agreed. this hardship is being interpreted as coming from God in this case 2)have faith EVEN IF it comes from God 3) That if suffering did indeed come from God, the point is, have faith BECAUSE you will be able to overcome the suffering. (not because it's good)
Do you see the difference? I'm not saying that the idea of hardship coming "from God" isn't problematic for my theodicy. It is. Even when I think of "hardship as discipline" it's a problem because I don't know what that looks like/how that's different from evil from our perspective. But that's not the focus.
The focus is:
Christ is our faith model in suffering because he suffered. fix your eyes on that when enduring hardship (or hardship as discipline) because, like Christ, faith is the means by which you'll make it through to your ultimate reward.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mepheternalAll this understood, I'm wondering how you don't agree that faith can include creative theologizing in the midst of suffering. This has happened THROUGHOUT scripture, it seems. The reinterpretation of events given an ASSUMED understanding of God's good and loving character towards his people. It can be argued, I think, that the corporate interpretation of the Babylonian conquest and exile of God's people as divine judgement could be one example. This is just what theodicy people do too. Trying to make sense of things in their world given certain core understandings of God. It would seem to me that this would go hand-in-hand with having faith in what one k
So, how could faith IN NO WAY include creative theologizing to preserve an dogmatic idea of God in the face of adversity? I'd say this is a plain truth, given our history and experience.
selahI'm not sure we need to go so far as to say "the reinterpretation of events" is what theodicy people do. I think we can say that God GAVE us a certain core understanding of HIMSELF in scripture and we have to work with that. The dogmatic idea of God being love is not a reinterpretation of anything, for example. Since God is love, theodicy people have to work with that. The dogmatic idea of God getting angry at injustice/other gods/etc. is also not a reinterpretation of anything - theodicy people have to work with that too. And, all the other "omni" things God is have to be worked with.
So, is it REALLY "creative theologizing to preserve the dogmatic in the face of adversity" or is your comment itself a reinterpretation of the fact that "theologians CANNOT reinterpret God (because he's interpreted Himself in JC), but they
CAN and SHOULD focus on the given understanding of Him in the face of adversity" There's nothing creative about it, really.It's a seeking of truth thing. imo
{for all those who don't know, and those it isn't completely obvious, mephi is 8 billion times smarter than me... so I could be completely wrong - at least in reasonable things ;)}
lemme have it meph
***************************
mephiYes. Very much so. What do you feel are some of your presuppositions with respect to the issue of "faith"?
selah
I presuppose that God is faithful.
I presuppose that reason gets in the way of faith...sometimes in detrimental ways.
I also presuppose that reason is necessary to a certain extent... (I think wisdom gives the parameters)
I presuppose the Omni's
I presuppose the Bible true.
I presuppose that the way God speaks to me can be trusted...and should be responded to in faith.
I presuppose that faith is a huge variable in doing Kingdom work (perhaps the biggest next to love).
I presuppose that faith is a decisive variable more than we think, perhaps. (it was for peter...if he was going to sink or not ;) )
I presuppose that one reason God gave us the examples of faith in scripture was to counter the idea that faith is connected to one's interpretation of events, ideas, or other things.
enough?
MephOne of mine is the following: Personal faith CANNOT be separated from one's interpretations of events, ideas, or other things. This is because of the very subjective nature of faith.
When we say that we experience God as being faithful or something like that we are INTERPRETING events in our lives and (whether we know it or not) making the CHOICE, to a significant degree, to interpret things that we have heard or things that happen to us AS God being faithful.
selahso the whole deal about "My sheep hear my voice" out the window? How do you do "relationship" with God in your head? Is communication involved? Is that communication a one way street? You may be saying something totally different, but I'm hearing: "God really isn't all that faithful... we just choose to believe he is...on a moment by moment basis depending on the day."
mephFor me personally, whenever I do this...I have a particular statement that I make for myself...or when I talk to others. "I choose to interpret this as..." I use this whenever I am talking perpsectivally about divine or demonic activity. This reflects the fact that my interpretation and actuality are RELATED, though DISTINCT. My interpretation of things may, AT MOST, be indicative of reality...but not totally things as they are in any naive sense.
In short, I treat "faith" as the significantly chosen subjective approriation of something as "true", even in the face of objective uncertainty and ambiguity.
selahIn other words "Luck"
Incidentally, and seriously Mephi,read that last paragraph and tell me it doesn't sound like you are the one on the throne. YOU make the choice to interpret if something was God or not? What about reality and relationship? The slope gets slippery, no?
...You don't REALLY have a relationship with God, you are choosing to believe you do... How could YOU know amidst all this ambiguity? The reality of God's faithfulness is subject to whatever YOU decide. And, since you are finite, you could be wrong...
After all, even the bible is subject to it's authors mistakes/opinions. Reality is subject to MY interpretation of it. Hey, I don't believe in anything anymore! Am I really reading words, or do I THINK I am.. come on... you're one of the smartest people on earth! what's goin on? 
If you said those things to me in a church context I'd be like: "pastor, what are you telling me? We have to choose to interpret things? I can't really hear God and know it? How is that a relationship? What about reality. Is God faithful or not?"
Talk to me,
love
selah
When the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth?Post Edited (Selah) : 1/17/2005 8:54:52 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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| Posted 1/17/2005 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Selah said...
More thoughts:
"It is the heart which perceives God and not the reason. That is what faith is: God perceived by the heart, not by the reason."
Pascal, Blaise
"Faith is the highest passion in a human being. Many in every generation may not come that far, but none comes further."
Kierkegaard, Soren
"We are twice armed if we fight with faith."
Plato
The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason."
Ben Franklin
(And we all know how good a guide Ben Franklin is to Christian faith).
"Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God."
Blaise Pascal
(Proof is not the same thing as evidence, either).
"Our faith comes in moments... yet there is a depth in those brief moments which constrains us to ascribe more reality to them than to all other experiences."
Emerson, Ralph Waldo
(Ditto to comments on Franklin).
"Faith is an oasis in the heart which can never be reached by the caravan of thinking"
Kahlil Gibran
(See Romans 1).
"Faith means believing the unbelievable."
G. K. Chesterton
(See Romans 1).
"If you examined a hundred people who had lost their faith in Christianity, I wonder how many of them would turn out to have reasoned out of it by honest argument? Do not most people simply drift away?"
C.S. Lewis
"Reason is the enemy of faith"
Martin Luther
"A living faith cannot be manufactured by the rule of majority"
Mahatma Gandhi
(Yet another sterling example of Christian faith).
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
(Who said you have to see the whole staircase? That's beside the point).
"Faith... is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods."
C.S. Lewis
The Apostle Paul:
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Funny how those who would denigrate reason constantly use their reason to do so. As Selah has demonstrated for us quite well, one need not look very long or very hard to find anti-intellectuals who are in fact quite intellectual, who are simply contradicting themselves in their supposed denigration of reason.
Amen. This is certainly true, and does not contradict reason in the least.
6 But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7 for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
James 1:6-7
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17
"Have faith in God."
Jesus
In the context, Jesus was reasoning with the disciples that, in view of his ability to curse the fig tree and the evidence they could see for themselves that it withered as a result, they should have faith in God.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
Paul is REASONING with the Galatians as to WHY they ought not submit to the Judaizers. He is definitely not saying, "Believe because I say you should."
Nowhere in any of the above verses (or anywhere else in scripture, for that matter), does God or Jesus or James or Paul ever once state or imply anything to the effect of, "Turn off your mind; quit using your God-given ability to think; just believe." Of course, especially important to note in all cases is the context of the scripture in question.
For instance, in Romans 1 Paul is certainly not arguing for a "dare to believe" concept of faith at all; he is plainly stated that "all men are without excuse," specifically because God has revealed himself ALREADY to them in the created order.
The following article by Scott Taylor, "The Key of Knowledge," explores the proposition that the benevolence of God is "the key of knowledge," and that benevolence should be the primary hermeneutic for understanding scripture and doing theology.
Wondering what ever happened to "faith that satisfies the mind, and inspires the heart?"
John
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