 |
|  David Jonasson Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2005 Total Posts : 4 | Posted 4/26/2005 1:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone,
I've held the Spiritual Warfare view for a bit less than a year now, but recently the Book of Revelation really starts to question my beliefs once again.
1. The 4 horses In the first vision God (?) sends out 4 horses, which can be seen to represent war, famine, pestilence, natural disasters etc. No matter what view on the book one have, this is a problem for the Warfare theist, because it suggest that God is the one sending wars, famines, pestilence etc. to either warn or punish people. 2. The judgement of Babylon (Rome) In the later chapters of Revelation God declares his wrath over the sins of Rome and clearly says that he will judge it. If God did this to Rome, why not today, - why isn't God who stirred the twin tower bombers as he stirred people to attack Rome, why isn't it God using the Tsunami to punish people, or by it showing mankind that we aren't that strong and godly as we think.
3. Philosophical argument One of the Warfare view's strongest arguments in my eyes is their philosophical ones, but throught the book of Revelation I thought of a counter-argument. We know that the world is full of sin, so how should a loving God show the world that we are going in the wrong direction? In our society we believe that we through our own strength, wisdom and knowledge can accomplish anything without God. People hide in their small personal worlds of technology and different amusements. As long as no disaster strucks them, they will stay there, they won't start to reflect on the questions: who am I, where am I going, is there a God out there? Therefore God, as he does allthough OT, send wars, famines, pestilence and judges nations. I don't suggest that God is behind all or most of these things, much is mankind or the devil responsible for, - but Revelation shows (?) that God at times uses all these things to either punish or warn people. So how do we know when it's God and when it's the devil and we need to fight it?
There are much more to be said about this subject, but I hope I've managed to show you some of the problems a Spiritual Warfare Theist meets as he opens the Book of Revelation. I hope someone could give som good thoughts around how to look on the book of Revelation in light of the Warfareview, it's a real problem for me.
Kind regards, David, Sweden | | Back to Top | | |
 |  MattBrown Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 74 | Posted 4/28/2005 10:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | Does the warefare view really hold that all the action in Revelation is not God? That the wrath poured out is not God or God's army and that the fighting of the bad dudes is not God or God's forces? Do Boyd and other proponents really think this?
I can buy a view that there is a huge cosmic war raging in the spiritual and physical realm. I can buy that spiritual agents like angels are demons are real, are personal, are volitional, and are powerful, even powerful enough to sometimes and under the right conditions to cause a tsunami or prevent one.
I just can't buy that God and his forces never act in judgement (because I see this in the scriptures).
I also can't see why God could/would not ever use suffering as a MEANS to the greater good of wooing his beloved children back (because I also see this in the scriptures). Be careful, lest in fighting the dragon you become the dragon. - Nietzsche | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Reader Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2005 Total Posts : 66 | Posted 4/28/2005 10:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | I think that it is clear that God allows temporal pain and death for the greater good of proclaiming and glorifying the message of the gospel. The term martyr is a witness to the message of the gospel in the face of death.
We have what God allowed to happen to His two witnesses.
Rev 7
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
We have God giving authority to the Beast to overcome His Church and witnesses who are simply called to persevere in the face of this temporal defeat.
Rev 13
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
Ultimately, we find that the witnesses did in fact overcome the evil one by being faithful to their message in spite of their temporal defeat and suffering. The greater good is to glorify God and His message in the face of death and suffering.
Rev 12
“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.”
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  John1721 Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2005 Total Posts : 5 | Posted 4/28/2005 3:54 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Reader said...
I think that it is clear that God allows temporal pain and death for the greater good of proclaiming and glorifying the message of the gospel. ... The greater good is to glorify God and His message in the face of death and suffering.
It would be one thing to picture God doing the best that man allows, rewarding spiritual foundations and chastizing the terminally stuborn -- both a form of mercy. It would be another thing to picture God with a scale balancing a "greater good" (And please don't take me to put any poster on this thread into a box. I'm just taking note of how jargon can direct our thinking.) against other options. The difference could be the setting aside of stuff outside of the reach of its Creator. Worst would be a picture of God reduced to deciding between the lesser of two evils. (At least "greater good" strikes one as possitive.)
God is full of surprises -- especially in the Old Testement. God is doing things beyond our understanding, and far beyond our capacity to scope them within our horizons. It is best if we remember that everything is within God's horizon.
Rather than thinking about "allowing temporal pain" lets look at what God does e v e n i n that pain. God with every victom. God working through those who take up their cross even in the "hopeless" deadends. Transcending them, making them doorways to eternity.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  David Jonasson Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2005 Total Posts : 4 | Posted 4/29/2005 4:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for the replies!
I do not believe that God allows bad things caused by Satan or human agents for a "Greater good", I think he simply allows it because he in one sense have to, because of the kind of world he choosed to create.
I'm not sure what view of the book of Revelation Gregory Boyd has, would be interesting to know!
David | | Back to Top | | |
 |  MattBrown Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 74 | Posted 4/29/2005 5:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | | When I say "greater good" I am not trying to be cliche though I can see how it must come across. I don't want to imply that God is ever less than perfect, just, and good in his will or his choice of action. I don't mean to say God ends up doing evil by choosing the lesser of two evils. Nor do I want to put God in a box, limit God or predict how God will act under such and such condition.
I just think that God must deal with creation as it comes and deal with us as we choose. God must deal with us with our messed up and finite raw material. In everyday life I can see I have limited choices, and it is my job to choose the best possible choice, knowing that in a hypothetical utopia there would be a still better choice. Not to condesend God to my level or in any way imply that God's choices are as limited as mine. Please don't take me that way. I just think that a loving father making the best choice (choice A) necessarily involves not making (choice B). It would violate non-contradiction to do both. Making choice A also involves the results and aftermath of the choice, which may not be pretty, but this in no way negates that it may be the best choice given how God has chosen to operate and the current reality of a situation.
Be careful, lest in fighting the dragon you become the dragon. - Nietzsche | | Back to Top | | |
 |  John1721 Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2005 Total Posts : 5 | Posted 4/30/2005 7:27 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MattBrown said...
I just think that God must deal with creation as it comes and deal with us as we choose. God must deal with us with our messed up and finite raw material. In everyday life I can see I have limited choices, and it is my job to choose the best possible choice, knowing that in a hypothetical utopia there would be a still better choice. Not to condesend God to my level or in any way imply that God's choices are as limited as mine. Please don't take me that way. I just think that a loving father making the best choice (choice A) necessarily involves not making (choice B). It would violate non-contradiction to do both. Making choice A also involves the results and aftermath of the choice, which may not be pretty, but this in no way negates that it may be the best choice given how God has chosen to operate and the current reality of a situation.
But doesn't God act outside of the limits in what is presented here. Doesn't God allow freee beings to move so far from God's zeal of mercy that it becomes zeal of wrath? Were God fit into the limits above he would 'have to' do A or B. The Jew's counted on God in limiting extreems. But the OT shows God outside the box, as do the Gospels and Epistles.
God's choices may not really be limited (or 'necessary') but rather may be resolved, calling us to the banquet, but willing to call others to take our place -- as in the parable.
| | Back to Top | | |
   |  AtTheWell Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 133 | Posted 5/1/2005 3:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:47 PM (GMT -6) There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|