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David Jonasson
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 5/9/2005 11:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | Lately I've been juggling with Gen 3, the story of the Fall.
1. The snake tempts Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
2. Eve eats and offers Adam to eat
3. They realize that they are naked,their perception of themselves and each other changes (other things probably changed as well)
4. God rebukes the snake, Adam and Eve for what they have done.
5. ?
?: We know that the woman after the curses had to give birth with pain, is to be oppressed by men. We know that the man has
to work hard, e.g. to supply food. Later on humanities immortality is taken away, they can now only be max 120 years old.
The question is: Is it God that makes up these consequences of their trespassing, or does these things come as a consequence
of Satan getting more influence over the earth since the stewards of the earth, humans, choosed to follow him. Either it is
God doing the cursing, or it's Satan.
Another question is where sickness come from, - is it from God as a punishment of the fall, or is it from Satan?
So what do you think? /David | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/9/2005 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said...
I think "the earth is cursed because of you" is God stating what was happening by their ceding dominion of the earth to satan. ...and Daddy, where do babies come from? 
Hey David,
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/9/2005 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
Laika said...
I think "the earth is cursed because of you" is God stating what was happening by their ceding dominion of the earth to satan. ...and Daddy, where do babies come from? Well, first, your mom and dad have a wrestling match.
Then you go to the hospital and pick up the baby!
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/9/2005 1:40 PM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said...
sparknheart said...
Laika said...
I think "the earth is cursed because of you" is God stating what was happening by their ceding dominion of the earth to satan. ...and Daddy, where do babies come from? Well, first, your mom and dad have a wrestling match.
Then you go to the hospital and pick up the baby!
"wrestling match"  Hmm... well that explains the scratches too.
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/9/2005 4:12 PM (GMT -6) | | David: The question is: Is it God that makes up these consequences of their trespassing, or does these things come as a consequence
of Satan getting more influence over the earth since the stewards of the earth, humans, choosed to follow him.
Starkman: What if it's both? The consequences being the natural fallout after the Fall—a curse that God allows to take place and even notes will take place. These "curses" are not the kind of curses that you would really expect as "punishment" or retribution. I mean, okay, some childbirth pain, toiling in the soil to get food. These are hardly retributive curses. Rather, they are theological statements reflecting what is to become of the world in its off-balance, a world that is now very misplaced with regard to its relationship with God. In other words, God's "cursing" is really another way of saying, "You want self-sufficiency? Okay, well, guess how well THAT'S going to go now that have left my covering and provision and have thought that your own covering and provision were sufficient to sustain the world in relationship with me. Impossible, Adam and Eve. Simply impossible. Oh, and as for you, serpent, you will find that I will address this issue of mis-placed relationship, which will bring an end to your influence. Be advised: I have plans for this mess." This really what I see being said in all the "cursing" we see.
David: Either it is God doing the cursing, or it's Satan.
Starkman: I don't see anything suggesting that Satan had anything to do with the verbal "cursing" part. God is clearly the one speaking.
As to sickness, well, when God's protective covering left us (I am speaking theologically here), the door opens for invasion of a whole host of things. One of those being little viruses and bacterias that don't do to well in our bodies (or rather, our bodies don't do to well with them in us!). Could these things have invaded our bodies before the Fall (speaking phyisiologically), perhaps, but the implication (theologically) is that God's protection would prohibit that from happening. Eventually, man would have eaten from the Tree of Life, we would have hoped, and that would be the end of the discussion as to any potential cursing. Well, we have a GREAT example of what man likes to do: eat of his own knowledge and provision and leave God out of the loop.
This is the theology of the passage. I don't hold so concretely to the events of Genesis 1-3 being literal, but I hold to its theology as dead-on!
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/10/2005 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | |
Starkman said...
David: Either it is God doing the cursing, or it's Satan.
Starkman: I don't see anything suggesting that Satan had anything to do with the verbal "cursing" part. God is clearly the one speaking.
God may be just stating the consequences of their actions.
Say you say this to a friend heavily involved in drugs: "Messed up is your life because of taking drugs". That doesn't mean you're the one who messed up their life, you're stating the consequences of their actions.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/20/2005 3:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi,
I should probably never jump in this late at night; I'm apt to ... 
But you know us frail human being types; even when we're quick swimmers, we're slow learners! OK, I know, enough late-night funny stuff. Did you know, seriously, that we are told 5 times that Adam and Eve were naked, and unashamed? I think that's amazing. (Not that they were naked, but that they were unashamed). I can hardly begin to imagine the kind of relationship possible with the Father, where I could be "naked" and unashamed. There is a point to my rambling, you know. Look at what the Father had given them; look at how He loved them; look at how he went searching for them when they were naked and ashamed and hiding from Him; look at Jesus; look at how He died for us. Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but I do not see the Father as being a God who curses; I do see holiness and justice, and even wrath, but even in His wrath, I see mercy.
I do think there are natural consequences for our sin, as well as the consequence of having a broken relationship with the Father, with His people ... and on and on it goes, like the stone that skips across a pond, or a butterfly effect ... Sin is a relational crime with huge consequences. I believe there was mercy for Adam and Eve in the Father's consequences, and in the natural consequences of the fall; they were no longer unashamed; they would, from that time forward, look at each other differently, treat each other differently, waffle in their relationship with the Father, hide from Him, and struggle to know who they really are, and what they are worth; hey! Wait a minute! It's us!
There are terrible consequences for our sins, but the Father is actively working to bring restoration and healing with forgiveness. We're in a battle. If God is doing the cursing, then what would we need an enemy for? At a dinner a week ago, a group of elders were sitting and talking, (no, it's not a late-night joke) and one of them shared a story with us, about a woman who "dared" to stand against something evil, who spoke with authority, and was dead a year later. We all sat there, in stunned silence--not because we were shocked, or couldn't believe the consequence for a woman who would dare to be an authority for God, but because this man had tied a woman's courageous stand, to her death, a year later. He was lovingly questioned. I bit my tongue, just a little; we're all fellow sojourners, then said, "If God was punishing her, cursing her, because she was a woman acting with authority, then why would we need an enemy? My husband was a little more forthright, saying that it was quite a leap to proclaim that her death (from cancer) a year later, was a result of her taking a position that should belong to a man. Oh the tangled webs we ...
The Father looks just like Jesus, acts just like Jesus, and visa versa; Jesus is the exact imprint of the Father.
WWJD?
God bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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