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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/8/2004 7:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | For a class assignment I visited a Mosque with my professor and some classmates and before we attended the service, we were spoken to by a woman who had converted from Catholicism to Islam. She stated that for Muslims, Jews and Christians are to be accepted as they are, even if they don't become Muslims because they accept the teachings of the Torah which the Muslims also uphold to be true. They consider Jews and Christians as spiritual brothers to a degree. But, as for everyone else, she didn't say anything about that. There was a map of the world on the wall behind her, with all the different percentages of Islam in the various countries. At the time it said that the goal was to bring Islam to the entire world by 2000. The map was pretty full already, too.
But, I tend to suspect that within Islam, just like within Christianity, there are many different interpretations of the Koran, and I think that this woman and her fellow Muslims wouldn't interpret the Koran as drastically as you stated.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/8/2004 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We certainly don't defend the KKK's right to kill, torture, or harass people based on their views on religion and morality; I honestly wonder why we seem so slow in recognizing that which is quite obvious--Islam has as its aim total world domination by coercive means if necessary, and as such, it should be outlawed and its adherents deported to their home countries.
The United States has yet to outlaw the KKK, and even allows them to hold public rallys. Your statement is more of a political statement, right? The actions of a minority of extremists should not affect how the "eclesia" is to interact with muslims in general, right?
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barryatk
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Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/8/2004 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | | I have wondered about this alot. I have a few friends who have visited Muslim countries as short-term missionaries. The countries they visit are so violent that they are kept secret. My friends were welcomed into Muslim homes, were respected as people "of the word". It seems the Muslim leaders are the enforcers. The average man invited my friends in and were very hospitable.
I also think we should listen to those who have been Muslim. There are books available from such men telling us that there is a huge portion of this faith that are ruthless and dangerous. I am becoming convinced that this is an evil religion, that their God is absoltuely NOT our God. It seems in the name of tolerance our society wants to befriend this group. It is a quandry to try to befriend individual Muslims and still teach that their religion in evil. Can we, should we?
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/9/2004 7:56 PM (GMT -6) | | I understand that the canibalism thing is crazy. That's the point.quote:
Some (liberal) Muslim scholars do say that "jihad" is not meant literally; however, it is a historical fact that Islam has grown worldwide primarily through procreation (they typically have BIG families, which polygamy also encourages) and through militarism.
Disregarding the polygamy (which I don't see applying to the discussion), are we going to define religions by the historical practice of them? If so, I don't want to be identified as a Christian. If I have this straight you're saying:
1) Muslims are historically militaristic.
2) This means Islam is militaristic.
3) This means Islam is a threat to the U.S.
To #1 I'd say not all Muslims are militaristic. Probably less than half considering how many Muslim women are treated. Some Islamic men (as you've pointed out) are not militaristic either. So we're left with those Islamic males who happen to be militaritic being historically militaristic, a tautology.
#2, There are plenty of militaristic male Christians. Does that make Christianity militaristic. It seems to me militarism is found in all religions. Something common to all people (even Christians) allows for violence.
#3, If Islam is a threat, so is Christianity. How many people have been killed in the name of Christ. It's my understanding that much of the German Christian clergy supported Hitler. Did they do that because they were secretly Islamic? I think our sinful nature is a clear and present threat to the U.S. That sinfulness can just as easily work through the church as it can through Islam.
If your argument is that the Quran commands violence, the Bible does too. If someone exercises freedom of religion, the Bible commands that they be stoned. If someone commits adultry, they get stoned too. Have you stoned your daily allowance of adulterers? Who probably haven't, because Jesus changed things. He saw beyond the letter of the law. You might describe him as a liberal Jewish scholar.
They had a word of 'conservative' in the Bible; it was 'Pharisee'. People have tons of different opinions about Jesus, but I think we should all be able to agree that he was liberal. So maybe the liberal Muslims are the one's correctly interpreting their scripture. Maybe conservative doesn't always equal correct. I can understand shying away from the word 'liberal' if you are living in the middle of the last century when that word stood for a disbelief in the reality of Jesus, but the word 'liberal' without the spin does not stand for something bad any more than 'conservative' does.
I think Muslims can do some lousy, dangerous things. But, just as you can read the Bible in such a way as to support any system of beliefs, you probably can spin the Quran just as well. Bad people do bad things. They often use religion as an excuse.
Finally, if Muslims are a threat, why did we remove Saddam? He hated Islam. Removing Saddam gave a lot of power and freedom to a lot of Muslims who were previously powerless and freedomless.
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/11/2004 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Some (liberal) Muslim scholars do say that "jihad" is not meant literally; however, it is a historical fact that Islam has grown worldwide primarily through procreation (they typically have BIG families, which polygamy also encourages) and through militarism.
Disregarding the polygamy (which I don't see applying to the discussion),
It applies because it's practice (even if not in the U.S.) makes for exponential growth in the total number of Muslims worldwide.
quote:
are we going to define religions by the historical practice of them?
The links I cited above make it clear that fundmentalist Islamism is very much a living religion; 9/11 should have made that clear.
quote:
If I have this straight you're saying:
1) Muslims are historically militaristic.
2) This means Islam is militaristic.
3) This means Islam is a threat to the U.S.
No, Sahid, you don't have this straight. I am saying the fundamentalist Islamic faith as practiced TODAY in many parts of the world, including the U.S., is militaristic, with a stated goal of "jihad" against "infidels" (anyone who won't convert).
quote:
#2, There are plenty of militaristic male Christians. Does that make Christianity militaristic. It seems to me militarism is found in all religions. Something common to all people (even Christians) allows for violence.
The point is that Islam positively ENDORSES physical violence as a means of spreading their religion, while the teaching of Jesus Christ does no such thing. (I know about the Crusades; but I think we will agree that the Crusades were misguided and a gross misrepresentation of what Christ's followers should actually be doing).
quote:
#3, If Islam is a threat, so is Christianity. How many people have been killed in the name of Christ. It's my understanding that much of the German Christian clergy supported Hitler. Did they do that because they were secretly Islamic?
Do you sit around trying to make up ludicrous responses? Christianity, as taught by Jesus Christ himself, does NOT teach the violent overthrow of the secular government as a means to propagating itself.
quote:
I think our sinful nature is a clear and present threat to the U.S. That sinfulness can just as easily work through the church as it can through Islam.
The idea of a "sinful nature" is complete nonsense and without clear scriptural support. If something is a nature, then that something is involuntary, and thus cannot be helped--sheer determinism/Calvinism is the only logical outcome of the "sinful nature" concept.
quote:
If your argument is that the Quran commands violence, the Bible does too.
No, it doesn't. At least not in the New Testament, with respect to how Christians are to share their faith in the world.
quote:
If someone exercises freedom of religion, the Bible commands that they be stoned. If someone commits adultry, they get stoned too. Have you stoned your daily allowance of adulterers? Who probably haven't, because Jesus changed things. He saw beyond the letter of the law. You might describe him as a liberal Jewish scholar.
Which of those examples you cite are from the New Testament and are binding upon New Testament Christians?
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/11/2004 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | As a political stance, I would agree that the goverenment has to keep an eye on any who would favor extreme Islamic practices. But, I don't feel that a believer can look at issues from a purely political or worldly view. God's word must always come into play. My concern is with the Islamics' view towards God's chosen people, Israel. It is not our place to judge, but God's. Judgement will come through the Lord Jesus Christ on those nations who have mistreated God's chosen people (Matt. 25) when He returns to set up the kingdom.
In order for our governemt to ensure the safety of the American people, restrictions may have to be placed on religions that promote violence (such as making the violent actions of the KKK illegal), but, as believers, our view of those outside the eclesia should not be influenced by the actions of a small minority of extremist islamic militants.
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Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/11/2004 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The point is that Islam positively ENDORSES physical violence as a means of spreading their religion, while the teaching of Jesus Christ does no such thing. (I know about the Crusades; but I think we will agree that the Crusades were misguided and a gross misrepresentation of what Christ's followers should actually be doing).
So misguided and gross misrepresentations of a religion don't count? Then what about the millions of Muslims who think 9/11 was a misguided and gross misrepresentation of what Muhammad's followers should actually be doing. Are you a Muslim? Do you claim to know the correct way to interpret Muhammad? quote:
Do you sit around trying to make up ludicrous responses? Christianity, as taught by Jesus Christ himself, does NOT teach the violent overthrow of the secular government as a means to propagating itself.
Wrong. Matt. 5:17-19. The plain interpretation is that the old testament law still applies. I don't agree with the plain interpretation, but you are going on the plain interpretation of the Quran. The old testament law, of which Jesus said he was removing nothing allows for killing those who are of a different religion and who are living in land that God has given to you (just like the Quran). quote:
The idea of a "sinful nature" is complete nonsense and without clear scriptural support. If something is a nature, then that something is involuntary, and thus cannot be helped--sheer determinism/Calvinism is the only logical outcome of the "sinful nature" concept.
Sorry. I was speaking of the sinful state that we can choose to be part of. quote:
No, it doesn't. At least not in the New Testament, with respect to how Christians are to share their faith in the world.
Like I said, I an outsider looked at our religion like you are looking at Islam, they would see Jesus as upholding the entire OT law. Also, Jesus told his disciples to keep some swords around. Why? For decoration? quote:
Which of those examples you cite are from the New Testament and are binding upon New Testament Christians?
This is, in a sence, a liberal interpretation of the NT (one that I agree with). More "conservative" Christians still require that we keep the Sabbath, not eat pork, etc. Would you like all Christians to be judged by the actions and beliefs of the most conservative? quote:
I live in one of the most heavily Muslim areas of the country (Detroit metropolitan area). I've talked with many Muslims (around here, the seem to have the gas station/convenience store market locked up). And though I've met several who were born here, I've never met one yet who didn't know his family's country of origin, and who wasn't quite proud of his ancestral homeland.
Good for you. You've talked with many Muslims (in urban Detroit) and think you know what all Muslims are like. Seriously. Maybe, just maybe, not all Muslims are like the ones that live in Detroit. quote:
The KKK's violent activies are outlawed now. If we outlawed the Islam Faith, perhaps many would leave on their own.
Here's where your logic breaks down. You talk about KKK actions, but Muslim beliefs. Why outlaw Muslim beliefs but not KKK beliefs? Why only outlaw KKK actions but not only violent Muslim actions? Are Muslim beliefs any worse than KKK beliefs?
You want to outlaw "the Islamic Faith", because you interpret it as a faith of violence. Many Muslims interpret Christianity as a faith of violence. You use a plain reading of Islamic texts to show that it is a violent religion. A plain reading of Revelation and Matt. 5:17-19 shows Christianity to be a violent religion too. Sure, the Bible advocates peace too, but so does the Quran.
Even if Islam is a completely violent enemy, how are we supposed to respond to violent enemies? How are Muslims supposed to respond to their enemies?
"Turn aside evil with good...'Peace be with you', they say, 'because ye have endured all things.'"
"Be patient under whatever shall betide thee: for this is a bounden duty. And distort not thy face at men; nor walk thou loftily on the earth; for God loveth no arrogant vain-glorious one."
Just flip through the Quran. Commands to be peaceful, patient, and humble are easy to find. Commands to be violent are harder to come by.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/11/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
It is clear that you do not wish to understand what I've been trying to say. I hope that in your future posts you will choose to engage what I'm actually saying, and will avoid erecting straw men as you have. If not, I see no good purpose in continuing to discuss with you. 
The links I provided clearly show the insidiously violent beliefs that are in fact endorsed by fundamental Islam. I never said I know what EVERY Muslim believes. Your raising of this absurdity does not prove anything one way or another. My point about my own experience with Muslims was not meant to establish a conclusion about the beliefs of all Muslims (how ridiculous that would be); it was instead simply an observation that from my experience, Muslims are very aware of their heritage, and are also very proud of it, so your objection that some might not know their country of origin is at least seriously called into question by my experience. (And I would submit, the experience of anyone who took the trouble to get to know their Muslim neighbors).
quote:
Do you sit around trying to make up ludicrous responses? Christianity, as taught by Jesus Christ himself, does NOT teach the violent overthrow of the secular government as a means to propagating itself.
quote:
Wrong. Matt. 5:17-19. The plain interpretation is that the old testament law still applies.
In the very same chapter, in the very same sermon, Jesus does away with the OT approach to one's enemies, and REVERSES it by saying LOVE your enemies. That said, it is not my point in this thread to discuss how CHRISTIANS should relate to Muslims; it is simply about how the gov't of the United States should relate to a volatile, hostile element within their society (Islamism).
quote:
Like I said, I an outsider looked at our religion like you are looking at Islam, they would see Jesus as upholding the entire OT law.
Actually, he overthrew some portions of the OT Law. (You may not have gotten to that point in your seminary studies, but it really is essential to the difference between Judaism and Christianity).
quote:
Which of those examples you cite are from the New Testament and are binding upon New Testament Christians?
quote:
This is, in a sence, a liberal interpretation of the NT (one that I agree with).
It is not a liberal interpretation, it is THE interpretation of the New Testament. I could take the time to show you how the early church, as revealed in the writings which would become the New Testament, came to an understanding that Christ's Kingdom was "not of this world," but that's really your responsibility.
quote:
More "conservative" Christians still require that we keep the Sabbath, not eat pork, etc.
Hmmm. What "conservative Christian" denominations can you cite that teach such things? I can only think of the Seventh-Day Adventists, who definitely don't make up a significant portion of Christianity, and are not even considered evangelicals by evangelicals.
quote:
A plain reading of Revelation and Matt. 5:17-19 shows Christianity to be a violent religion too.
As I have demonstrated above, your interpretation of Christ's message in the Sermon on the Mount ignores the last paragraph of chapter five of Matthew. Further, Revelation does NOT show Christians killing other people; it shows CHRIST judging the entire world. Big difference.
quote:
Even if Islam is a completely violent enemy, how are we supposed to respond to violent enemies? How are Muslims supposed to respond to their enemies?
Again, you are (as usual) confusing the church with the state. It is not my argument in this thread to address how CHRISTIANS should approach Muslims. It is instead, how the United States should protect its own citizens.
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Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/11/2004 1:43 PM (GMT -6) | | I have two things to say.
First, the strawman. quote:
The links I provided clearly show the insidiously violent beliefs that are in fact endorsed by fundamental Islam. I never said I know what EVERY Muslim believes.
quote:
The KKK's violent activies are outlawed now. If we outlawed the Islam Faith, perhaps many would leave on their own.
quote:
That said, it is not my point in this thread to discuss how CHRISTIANS should relate to Muslims; it is simply about how the gov't of the United States should relate to a volatile, hostile element within their society (Islamism).
Strawman? "outlaw the Islam faith" You didn't saw fundamentalist Islam or violent Islam. "relate to Muslims" not violent Muslims. "hostile element...(Islamism)" It's not a strawman. They are your words.
Second, my horrible hermeneutics. I know the hermeneutic is bad. But, it's the same one you are using on the Quran. You want me took look at the entire sermon on the mount. I want you to look at the entire Quran. You point out how there is more than the ultraconservative point of view to Christianity. You even point out that the ultraconservatives are a tiny portion of Christianity as a whole. You criticize my education, but you don't realize that all I'm doing is using your logic. You think my arguements are ludicrous, but why can't you see that I agree? Of course they're ludicrous. But I copied them from you. How many people do you think were involved in 9/11? 100? 1000? How many Muslims have you talked to? 1000 more? You are judging "the Islam Faith" (your words, not mine) by at best 2000 people. Would you feel comfortable if a devout Muslim judged all of Christianity by 2000 who he talked to or saw doing violence?
When you called my arguements ludicrous the first time, I laughed. I though you understood what I was saying. This time I just depressed. Since we are critiquing eachother's education, you might want to go make over your tenth grade English notes that you took on A Modest Proposal. I hear about half of his audience thought it was ludicrous. The other half started thinking canibalism might be a good idea. I guess I should have known better. I'll be more careful with my irony next time.
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Dragon Chaser
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 8/29/2005 3:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/29/2005 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-
he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
We can cut and paste the Bible together to show Yahweh to be a terrorist. The Bible advocates child abuse, hatred, genocide, self-mutilation, and many other immoral things, just like the Quran. If Craig Winn can show the Quran to be a book of terrorism, I can do just as good a job of showing the same of the Bible.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Dragon Chaser
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 8/29/2005 1:34 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Wow. You can take the word of God and make it look Satanic. You would make the liberals around the world proud, Shaheed. You should come out with your own work and call it, “The scripture of Doom.” Just maybe, you would get a literature award from Mikhail Gorbachev, Ted Turner or even the Scandinavian Pulitzer Prize. Not that it would do any good you should read past the subtitles.
Are you saying the Quran is the divinely inspired word of God brought down by the archangel Gabriel to Muhammad? If that is the case then Jesus Christ is not the Messiah, Muhammad is.
CHRISTIANS:
Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”
Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”
Ishaq:180 “According to my information, the Apostle often sat by a young Christian slave named Jabr. The Meccans said, ‘He is the one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings.’ Then Allah revealed, Qur’an 16:103 ‘We know what they (pagans) say: “It is only a mortal man who teaches him (Muhammad). But the tongue of the man they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this (Qur’an) is pure Arabic.’”
Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.”
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”
Ishaq:552 “The Quraysh had put pictures in the Ka’aba including two of Jesus and one of Mary. Muhammad ordered that the pictures should be erased.”
Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”
Qur’an 5:15 “O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Apostle, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your scripture, suppressing and passing over much. There has come to you from Allah a (new) light (Muhammad) and a clear Book [the Qur’an].”
Qur’an 5:17 “...Say (Muhammad): ‘Who then has the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary, his mother, and everyone else on earth?”
Qur’an 5:18 “The Jews and the Christians say: ‘We are sons of Allah, and his beloved.’ Say: ‘Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men. He forgives whom He wishes and punishes whom He pleases.’”
Qur’an 5:35 “Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.”
Qur’an 5:47 “Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”
Qur’an 5:48 “To you [Christians] We sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed.”
Qur’an 5:49 “And this (He commands): Judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their [Christian] desires, but beware of them lest they beguile you, seducing you away from any of that which Allah hath sent down to you. And if they turn you away [from being Muslims], be assured that for their crime it is Allah’s purpose to smite them. Truly most men are rebellious.”
Qur’an 5:57 “Believers, take not for friends those who take your religion for a mockery or sport, a joke, whether among those who received the scripture before you or among those who reject Faith; but fear Allah.”
Qur’an 5:68 “Say: ‘People of the scripture Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you observe the Taurat [Torah], the Injeel [Gospel], and all the Revelation that has come to you from your Lord.’ It is certain to increase their rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve you not over unbelieving people.”
Qur’an 5:72 “...Lo! Whoever joins other gods with Allah or says He has a partner, Allah has forbidden Paradise, and the Hell Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.”
Qur’an 5:73 “They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ‘God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no Ilah (God) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this (blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall them—the disbelievers will suffer a painful doom.”
Qur’an 5:75 “The Messiah, Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had to eat their food. See how Allah does make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded!”
Qur’an 4:157 “‘We [Jews] killed the Messiah, Jesus,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him. It appeared so to them (as the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man and they killed that man). Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself. Those who differ with this version are full of doubts. They have no knowledge and follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not.”
Qur’an 4:171 “O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion; nor speak lies of Allah. The Messiah, Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease and Desist: (it is) better for you: for Allah is one Ilah (God). (Far it is removed from him of) having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Messiah is proud to be a slave of Allah, as are the angels, those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant. He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)…. He will punish with a painful doom; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or save them.”
Qur’an 4:159 “And there is none of the People of the Book but will believe in him (Jesus as only a messenger of Allah and a human being) before his (Jesus’) death. He will be a witness against them.”
Qur’an 5:77 “Say (Muhammad): ‘People of the Book, do not overstep the bounds in your religion, or follow the people who erred and led many astray. Cursed are the unbelievers among the Children of Israel by David and Jesus.... They do vile things, allying themselves with the infidels so that Allah’s indignation is upon them and in torment they will suffer for all eternity.” [Another translation reads:] “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”
Qur’an 5:80 “You see many of them allying themselves with the unbelieving infidels. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah’s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.” Qur’an 5:81 “If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what had been revealed to him.”
Qur’an 5:82 “You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims.”
Qur’an 5:110 “And God will say: ‘O Jesus! Recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in the prime of life. Behold! I taught you the law and the judgment, the Torah and the Gospel. And behold, you made out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird and you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission. And you healed those born blind by My permission and the lepers by My permission. And behold! You raised forth the dead by My permission. And behold! I did restrain the Jews from harming you when you came with clear proofs. And the unbelievers among the Jews said: ‘This is nothing but magic.’”
Qur’an 5:111 “Behold! I inspired the [Christian] disciples to have faith in Me and My Messenger. They said, ‘We are believers, and bear witness that we prostrate ourselves to Allah as Muslims.’” Qur’an 5:112 “Behold! The disciples, said: ‘O Jesus, can your Lord send down to us a table well laid out from heaven?’ Said Jesus: ‘Fear Allah, if you have faith.’ When the disciples said: ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven?’ He said: “Observe your duty to Allah, if you are true believers.’” Qur’an 5:113 “They said: ‘We only wish to eat thereof to satisfy our hearts, and to know that you have told us the truth. We want to witnesses a miracle.’ Said Jesus, the son of Mary: ‘O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table well laid out, that there may be for us a feast, a Sign from you.” Qur’an 5:115 “Allah said: ‘I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, resisting Faith [Islam], I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on any one of my creatures, man or jinn. I will punish them with a torment such as I have not inflicted on any one of my creatures.”
Qur’an 5:116 “And behold! Allah will say: ‘O Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ He will say: ‘Glory to You! Never could I utter what I had no right.” Qur’an 5:117 “I only said what You (Allah) commanded me to say: Worship Allah, my lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them but you took me up. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world.)”
Tabari IX:15 “One of the Ansari who was plundering the slain came upon a Thaqif boy. He discovered that he was an uncircumcised Christian. He uncovered others and then yelled out at the top of his voice, ‘Allah knows that the Thaqif are uncircumcised.”
Tabari IX:86 “Don’t seduce the Jews or Christians for incumbent on them is to pay the jizyah protection tax.”
Bukhari:V2B23N414 “The Prophet in his fatal illness said, “Allah cursed Jews and Christians because they took their Prophets’ graves as places for praying.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N727 “When Allah’s Apostle became seriously sick, he started covering his face with a woolen sheet. When he felt short of breath, he removed it, and said, ‘That is so! Allah’s curse be on Jews and Christians.’”
Bukhari:V4B55N607 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw Jesus with a red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. And I resemble Abraham more than any of his offspring.’”
Qur’an 2:111 “They say: ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ Those are their (vain) desires. Say: ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’ Nay, whoever submits His face to Allah and surrenders, he will get his reward; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: ‘The Christians follow nothing; and the Christians say: ‘the Jews follow nothing (true);’ Yet they (profess to) recite the (same) scripture Book. But Allah will judge between them in their quarrel.”
Qur’an 9:30 “The Jews call Uzair the son of Allah, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying from their mouths; they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s (Himself) fights against them, cursing them, damning and destroying them. How perverse are they!”
Qur’an 9:31 “They (Jews and Christians) consider their rabbis and monks to be gods besides Allah. They also took their Lord Messiah to be a god but they were commanded (in the Taurat and Injeel) to worship only One Ilah (God). There is no ilah (god) but He. Too holy is He for the partners they associate (with Him).”
Qur’an 9:34 “Believers, there are many (Christian) monks and (Jewish) rabbis who in falsehood devour the wealth of mankind and hinder (men) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in Allah’s Cause. (Muhammad) announce unto them tidings of a painful torture. On the Day [of Doom] heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the Fire of Hell. It will be branded on their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs. ‘This is the (treasure) which you hoarded for yourselves: now taste it!’”
Qur’an 2:116 “They say: ‘Allah hath begotten a son: glory be to Him.’ Nay, to Him belongs all that is in heavens and on earth: All are subservient and obedient to Him.”
Qur’an 2:145 “Even if you were to bring to the people of the scripture Book all the Signs, they would not follow Your Qiblah; nor are you going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other’s Qiblah.”
Qur’an 2:146 “The People of the Book, unto whom We gave the scripture, know/recognize this revelation/him as they know/recognize their own sons; But lo! a party of them knowingly conceals truth.”
Qur’an 2:71 “The semblance of the infidels is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense.”
Qur’an 2:174 “Those who conceal Allah’s revelations in the [Bible] scripture Book, and thus make a miserable profit thereby [selling it to Muhammad], swallow Fire into themselves; Allah will not address them. Grievous will be their doom.” Qur’an 2:175 “They are the ones who bartered away guidance for error and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah, what boldness (they show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because Allah sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism of great opposition.”
Tabari VIII:98 “Between the truce of Hudaybiyah and his death, the Messenger dispersed his Companions with letters. ‘I have been sent as a mercy and for all. Therefore, convey the message from me, and Allah shall have mercy on you. Do not become disobedient to me as the Disciples became disobedient to Jesus. He called them to the like of what I called you to. Those whom he sent close by were pleased and accepted; those whom he sent far off were refused. Jesus complained of their behavior to Allah, and when they awoke the next morning, each could speak the language of the people to whom he had been sent. Then Jesus said, ‘This is an affair that Allah has determined for you; so go forth!’”
Qur’an 8:50 “If you could have seen the infidels when the angels drew away their souls, striking their faces and smiting their backs. The angels said: ‘Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire.’”
Qur’an 8:52 “They brought this on themselves. Their case is like that of Pharaoh and of those before them. They denied and rejected the revelations of Allah, and Allah destroyed them, punishing them for their crimes: for Allah is strict, severe in punishment.”
Qur’an 61:6 “And Jesus, the son of Mary, said: ‘Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming that (which was revealed) before me in the Torah, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad, the Praised One.’ But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, ‘this is sorcery!’”
Qur’an 61:14 “O Muslims! Be helpers of Allah: As Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are Allah’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious.”
Qur’an 3:37 “Mariam was given into the care of Zacharyah. Whenever he came to see her in her chamber he found her provided with food, and he asked, ‘Where has this come from Mary?’ She said, ‘From Allah who gives in abundance to whomsoever He will. Zacharyah prayed, ‘Bestow on me offspring that is good [i.e., not a girl]. As he stood in the chamber the angels said, ‘Allah sends you tidings of Yahya (John) who will confirm a thing from Allah (the creation of Isa (Jesus), the Word of Allah) and be a noble prophet, one who is upright and does good [a Muslim].”
Qur’an 3:42Qur’an 3:44 “Behold! the angels said: ‘Mariam! Allah has chosen you and purified you above the women of all nations and creation (including jinn). Mary! submit with obedience to your Lord (Allah). Prostrate yourself, and bow down with those [Muslims] who bow down.” “This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which you have no knowledge and We reveal unto you (Messenger!) by inspiration. You were not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mariam. Nor were you with them when they disputed.”
Qur’an 3:45 “Behold, the angels said: ‘O Mariam! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of those nearest to Allah.”
Qur’an 4.171 “O people of the Book (Christians), do not be fanatical in your faith, and say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah who is Isa (Jesus), son of Mariam, was only a messenger of Allah, nothing more. He bestowed His Word on Mariam and His Spirit. So believe in Allah and say not Trinity for Allah is one Ilah (God)…far be it from His Glory to beget a son.”
Qur’an 3:46 “And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and shall be one of the good ones.”
Bukhari:V4B55N645 “The Prophet said, ‘None spoke in cradle but three: The first was Jesus, the second was an Israeli called Juraij. While he was offering his prayers, his mother called him. He said, “Shall I answer her or keep on praying?” He went on praying and did not answer her. His mother said, “O Allah! Do not let him die till he sees the faces of prostitutes.”
Qur’an 3:47 “Mary said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?’ He said: ‘Even so: Allah creates what He wills: When He has decreed a plan, He but says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!” Qur’an 3:48 “And Allah will teach him the scripture Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him a messenger to the Children of Israel, with this message: ‘Lo! I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave.” [As if reading a different Arabic text, the Ali translation says:] “He will teach him the Law and the Judgment, the Torah and the Gospel, and he will be Apostle to the children of Israel, (saying) ‘I have come to you with a prodigy from your Lord that I will fashion the state of destiny out of the mire for you and breathe (a new spirit) into it, and (you) will rise by the will of Allah.”
Bukhari:V4B55N657 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, will shortly descend amongst you Muslims and will judge mankind by the law of the Qur’an. He will break the cross and kill the swine [Jews] and there will be no Jizyah tax taken from non-Muslims. Money will be so abundant no one will accept it. So you may recite this Holy Verse: “Isa (Jesus) was just a human being before his death. On the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus) will be a witness against the Christians.”’”
Bukhari:V4B55N658 “Allah’s Apostle said ‘How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur’an and not by the law of Gospel.’”
Bukhari:V4B55N651-2 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus. There has been no prophet between me and Jesus. All the prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.’”
Qur’an 3:50 “(I [Isa/Jesus] have come) to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”
Bukhari:V4B56N814 “There was a Christian who embraced Islam and he used to write the revelations for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again he used to say: ‘Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.’”
Qur’an 3:52 “But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: ‘Who will be my helpers in the Allah’s Cause? The disciples said: We will be Allah’s helpers. We believe in Allah, and do you bear witness that we are Muslims.” Qur’an 3:54 “And they (the disciples from the previous verse) schemed, and Allah schemed and plotted (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” [Another translation reads:] Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations [the Torah and Gospels] and follow this Apostle [Jesus]. Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.” [A third translation says that “they” refers to “disbelievers,” not the disciples and they plotted to kill Jesus.] “And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Isa [Jesus]) and Allah plotted too.”
Qur’an 3:55 “Allah said, ‘Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Myself and rid you of the infidels (who have forged the lie that you are My son).… Those who are infidels will surely receive severe torment both in this world and the next; and none will they have as a savior for them.” [Interesting, considering...] Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.” [Another translation reads:] Qur’an 3:55 “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith. Then shall you all return unto me, and I will judge between you on the matters wherein you dispute.” [Another:] “(Remember) when Allah said: ‘Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me. I am cleansing you of those who disbelieve.” [A fourth reads:] “When Allah said: ‘Jesus, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve.... I will decide between you concerning that which you differed.”
Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.” Qur’an 3:58 “This is what We rehearse to you of the Signs and Message, a wise reminder. The similitude (likeness) of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be.’ And he was.”
Qur’an 3:60 “The Truth (comes) from Allah alone. So be not of those who doubt, waver or dispute. If any one disputes in this matter with you, now after knowledge has come to you, say: ‘Come! Let us gather together our sons and women among ourselves. Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!’”
Qur’an 3:61 “If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them.” Qur’an 3:62 “This is the true account, the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah; and Allah—He is the Mighty, the Wise. And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is aware of the corrupters, the mischief-makers. Say: ‘O People of the Book, come to common terms as an agreement between us and you: That we all shall worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah.’ If then they turn back, say you: ‘Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims surrendered.”
Qur’an 3:67 “Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was a true Muslim, surrendered to Allah (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.” Qur’an 3:69 “It is the wish of the followers of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not. You People of the Book! Why reject you the signs, proofs, and verses of Allah, of which you are witnesses? You People of the Book! Why do you clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth?”
Qur’an 3:118 “O you who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. When they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say unto them: ‘Perish in your rage.’”
Qur’an 4:48 “Allah forgives not that partners [Christ as God] should be set up with Him; but He forgives anything else, to whom He please; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous.”
Qur’an 4:50 “Behold! how they invent lies against Allah! That is flagrant sin.”
Qur’an 4:51 “Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in sorcery and false deities and say of those who disbelieve: these are better guided than those who believe. They are (men) whom Allah has cursed: And those whom Allah has cursed, you will find that they have no savior.”
Qur’an 4:54 “Are they jealous and envious what Allah has given them of his bounty? But We had already given the house of Abraham the Book, and conferred upon them a grand kingdom. Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him. And Hell is sufficient for their burning. Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire. As often as their skin is burnt and singed, roasted through, We shall change it for fresh skin, so that they may go on tasting the torment.” | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/29/2005 2:19 PM (GMT -6) | |
Dragon Chaser said...
Are you saying the Quran is the divinely inspired word of God brought down by the archangel Gabriel to Muhammad?
No. How in the world did you get that from what I said?
My making the Bible 'look Satanic" is exactly what fundamentalists do the the Quran. I can disagree with the Quran without having to put together a disconnected, non-contextual string of quotes. Do unto others. If you don't like it when I pull Bible verses out of context, don't pull Quran passages out of context.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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