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spenlake
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   Posted 12/31/2005 9:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I put a post in Questions on Christianity that deals with original sin in a way I have not heard before.  Any counter arguments?


Spen Lake

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   Posted 1/1/2006 1:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Are you saying that the wages of sin is death and therefore a baby that has no sin should not be subject to death…but because babies do die they must be under original sin?


 Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game.

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spenlake
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   Posted 1/1/2006 9:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am moving this to the other thread.


Spen Lake

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/1/2006 9:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Spark, I don't want to post long. I'll only post that "ancestorial sin" is my preference to "original sin" -- as original sin sounds like a hand-me-down (which "imputed guilt" teaches). Ancestorial sin (I don't object to original as a word, just so I know what is being meant.) DOES have consequences for all of us. Babies included. New babies do not have their own sin, or guilt from Adam and Eve. But they DO have both the consequences of sin (death) and the unfortunate situation of being born into the collective "guilt" which is this mess (a concrete guilt rather than an abstraction) of a world, that compells our sinning.


 
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   Posted 1/1/2006 10:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
New babies do not have their own sin, or guilt from Adam and Eve. But they DO have both the consequences of sin (death) and the unfortunate situation of being born into the collective "guilt" which is this mess (a concrete guilt rather than an abstraction) of a world, that compells our sinning.
I agree we all are born into a fallen world filled with decay and death.  I'm not so sure about what compells our sinning.


 Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/2/2006 10:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sparknheart said...
PotOnWheel said...
New babies do not have their own sin, or guilt from Adam and Eve. But they DO have both the consequences of sin (death) and the unfortunate situation of being born into the collective "guilt" which is this mess (a concrete guilt rather than an abstraction) of a world, that compells our sinning.
I agree we all are born into a fallen world filled with decay and death.  I'm not so sure about what compells our sinning.

WHAT COMPELLS OUR SINNING...

I was thinking about two things I've read. The first is what Paul writes, the "the sting of death is sin." (I've heard remarked that we often remember this verse to say it the other way around--that the sting of sin is death. But we've got to take the verse as it reveals.) The second is about the "mess" of the world. Seems true what is said that no one sins alone. That is born out in what is necessary for forgiveness: "go to..." the one's both that we've offended, and been offended by. Sin is the missing of the mark of sharing God's love through loving and being loved by his image bearing creations. And sin is also missing the mark of being good stewards of his creation that he made us to be prophets, priests and kings, "to till and to tend."  So, these two.
 
Both of these compell our sinning. Short of coming every day and every hour to the Cross of Christ we get overwhelmed by the threat of more death -- be it embarasement, failure, limitation, hurt, etc. -- and take steps that revolve around ourselves as the center. And in doing that we repeat the sin of our ancestorial mother and father. The serpant said we could be gods; and ironically we would have (small 'g') merely be growing in fellowship with God our creator, participating in his life and love. But no, we wanted it to be our own design -- mislead by the serpant's advice -- that would save us from some self-perceived lack.
 
 
The saint (Jim Elliot) who said "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose" was speaking Gospel. I can't wait to see the movie "End of the Spear":
The cross and the ark are similar. There is only safety in or on that wood. Both are in the midst of the shaddow of death. Both offer deliverance. Both entail the taking on of extreem limitation, and complete trust. Both point beyond themselves and beyond us.
 
Fear of death, or of giving away all we have, or of renouncing ourselves and taking up Christ's claim on our very lives (Bonhoeffer) are the cost. Otherwise we become ruled by death, and relinquish our truly free will. 
 
And remember, we don't sin alone. Neither are we saved alone. It is not just "me and Jesus." We are fitted by the Spirit into the Body which is his Church. We become one with both those faithful on this earth and with those who have placed their last word and breath in His nail-scared hande.
 
That we might be faithful in all we do THIS day with those things God gives us responsibility, and that we might have a peaceful end to our lives can be our daily and hourly prayer.
 
 


 
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