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pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 7/9/2001 5:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey, does this sound familiar to anyone?
quote:
As for Father Zeus,
one thing he will give and another he’ll hold back,
whatever his pleasure. All things are in his power.
— The Odyssey 14.504–506
pia
Edited by - pia†desideria on 07/09/2001 10:13:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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accident
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 7/9/2001 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/10/2001 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Homer borrowed from Job. Fascinating.
ARE YOU SERIOUS? How did you come to that conclusion? Please lay out the logical steps.
Hey sid,
Did you mean to suggest that Homer borrowed from Job? I hear your interested in OT studies, will you find out when Job was first translated into Greek? My guess is that it was about half a millenium after Homer's time. I seriously doubt Homer knew Hebrew. Just curious.
Edited by - ModesofThought on 07/10/2001 10:38:34 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 7/10/2001 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/10/2001 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Dear softh,
It’s PIA or ’RIA for short.
Yo sid, what is the proper pronounciation of "softh"? By the way, I capitolize my T. And are you avoiding my other questions?
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pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 7/10/2001 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | SOFtH, You’re obviously jealous of my way-cool name, that’s why you’re trying to wreck it. Am I avoiding your questions? Yes, and I will continue to until you stop calling me sid. 
Later,
PIA†DESIDERIA
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/10/2001 6:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
SOFtH, You’re obviously jealous of my way-cool name, that’s why you’re trying to wreck it. Am I avoiding your questions? Yes, and I will continue to until you stop calling me sid.
Later,
PIA†DESIDERIA
Getting fiesty, eh? I tend toward mono-syllabic nicknames (Modes, Meph, doc, Springs, etc.) so you can pick between "sid", "p" or "a". It's not my fault you put so many syllabols in your name. I think "sid" is the best, but we could compormise and I could call you "p-brain" that would be two syllabols.
Modes
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pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 7/10/2001 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Did somebody just post something? Oh, I guess not…
Just checking,
PIA†DESIDERIA
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/10/2001 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Did somebody just post something? Oh, I guess not…
Just checking,
PIA†DESIDERIA
Really now, that is unnecessary. I gave you four options, just pick one and then get back to me on the OT stuff, if you will.
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pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 7/10/2001 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | 
pia
Edited by - pia†desideria on 07/10/2001 1:18:22 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 7/10/2001 8:17 AM (GMT -6) | | And you thought arguing with Mephi was a challenge! Ha!
Ah Modes, I can’t stay mad at you. Let’s make up. 
In order to spare you all those complicated syllables, I’ll just sign off like my hero, adiaphora. ~ p
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Glamdring
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 7/10/2001 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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accident
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 7/10/2001 10:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes,
Sorry. It's not entirely impossible that Homer wasn't influenced by Job-- the story undoubtedly existed as oral history before it was written down, and who knows how far Job's descendants ranged?-- but it's just as possible that there was a convergence of ideas.
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/10/2001 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes,
Sorry. It's not entirely impossible that Homer wasn't influenced by Job-- the story undoubtedly existed as oral history before it was written down, and who knows how far Job's descendants ranged?-- but it's just as possible that there was a convergence of ideas.
Of course! Nothing is impossible. Well, almost nothing. My point was simply, are there any HISTORICAL and/or TEXTUAL reasons that you can site to support your suspicion that Homer got this idea from Job, or is it something we feel compelled to say so as not to embarass Job? Paul and the early church fathers quote from the Greeks quite freely, why not Job or (more likely) perhaps Job's redactors? To jump immediately to the conclusion that Homer borrowed from Job seems a long shot and overly irresponsible. This doesn't help Christian credibility in the eyes of scholars in the fields pertinent to these questions.
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/10/2001 5:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Great Quote Pia. And great humor you guys!
It shows that Job's view of God was essentially PAGAN. One of the central points of this incredible book, I believe, is to REFUTE just this theology. (The other is to refute the theology of Job's friends). How interesting, and sad, that this slogan "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away" is so often quoted as the stance Christians are SUPPOSED TO TAKE.
I read in the paper last week the man whose wife killed his five kids quote this verse. AS THOUGH GOD WAS WORKING THROUGH HIS INSANE WIFE TO KILL HIS FIVE KIDS.
The same Job who said "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away" said this:
"[God] mocks at the calamity of the
innocent.
The earth is given into the hand of the
wicked;
He covers the eyes of its judges –
If it is not he, who then is it? (Job 9:23-24, cf. 21:17-26, 30-32; 24:1-12)
Does God really laugh at the misfortunes of the innocent and causes judges to judge unjustly. Can anyone imagine a biblical author endorsing this perspective? But it gets worse.
,
Why are times not kept by the
Almighty?
And why do those who know him
never see his days? (Job 24:1)
From the city the dying groan,
And the throat of the wounded cries
for help;
Yet God pays no attention to their
prayer. (Job 24:12)
Job’s depiction of God is even harsher when he considers the injustice of his own state. For example, Job cries out to the Lord,
Your hands fashioned and made me;
And now you turn and destroy me (10:8).
Bold as a lion you hunt me;
And repeat your exploits against me…
Let me alone; that I might find a little
comfort (10:9, 20)
You have turned cruel to me;
and with the might of your hand you
persecute me (30:21).
And to his "friends" Job claims,
…God has worn me out;
he has made desolate all my
company.
And he has shrivelled me up…
He has torn me in his wrath, and
hated me;
He has gnashed his teeth at me;
my adversary sharpens his eyes
against me. (16:7-9, cf. 11-17)
With violence he seizes my garment;
He grasps me by the collar of my
tunic… (30:18))
Are we to believe that these are sentiments the author of this work is recommending to his readers? Are we to see God as our "adversary" instead of our comforter? Doesn’t the god Job describes in these passages sound more like "a roaring lion… looking for someone to devour" – in other words, "your adversary the devil" (I Pet 5:8)?
THIS God is Zeus.
Thanks for the quote Pia.
Doc
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Triskal
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 7/12/2001 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc,
one question. Why does the book of Job always be sure to clarify that "in all this, Job did not sin." What was the point of making that so clear? I mean, if the whole point of the book is to refute Job's theology, then why would it matter or not if Job sinned or didn't sin?
In His Grip,
Matt
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/13/2001 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc,
one question. Why does the book of Job always be sure to clarify that "in all this, Job did not sin." What was the point of making that so clear? I mean, if the whole point of the book is to refute Job's theology, then why would it matter or not if Job sinned or didn't sin?
In His Grip,
Matt
Now THAT is a very good question! I can't WAIT to see what Doc has to say about that.
In Her Grip,
Modes
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Glamdring
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 7/13/2001 5:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Soft!
I implore you to cease and desist from attributing that atrocious moniker 'Sid' to our beloved Pia. She has chosen such a rich pen name (and she has that cool cross thingy goin'too)that has a depth as yet umplumbed, and you make light of it! Oh the travesty!
She has been a tribute to her gender thereby inspiring all of us lessor goddesses! Therefore we find your masculine nickname of her sheer impudence at best, and indicative of envy and unrighteous jealousy at worst!
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
ah ha ha ha ha
G
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/14/2001 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Isn't there a difference between saying that a person did not sin and saying that they're theology is right? Job statement reflects a worshipful, reverent attitude -- unlike what he adopted later on in the book. But this is not to say that the author was saying his theology is all okay.
Later, in chapter 42, the Lord says that the friends of Job did not speak "rightly" as Job had. Yet, check out the junk Job said about God! No one wants to say that was "right" theology. Indeed, Job himself repents of it. But it was authentic, from the heart, true-to-life. Job's friends, with their cliche' theology, was self-serving and hence wrong-hearted.
That's my take on it.
Doc
(I finally filled out my profile. I hope it worked so you can read my cool "signiture." )
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/14/2001 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Isn't there a difference between saying that a person did not sin and saying that they're theology is right? Job statement reflects a worshipful, reverent attitude -- unlike what he adopted later on in the book. But this is not to say that the author was saying his theology is all okay.
Later, in chapter 42, the Lord says that the friends of Job did not speak "rightly" as Job had. Yet, check out the junk Job said about God! No one wants to say that was "right" theology. Indeed, Job himself repents of it. But it was authentic, from the heart, true-to-life. Job's friends, with their cliche' theology, was self-serving and hence wrong-hearted.
That's my take on it.
Doc
(I finally filled out my profile. I hope it worked so you can read my cool "signiture." )
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/14/2001 8:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Rats, won't work.
This computer stuff!!!!
I've tried to log in my profile too many times. How frustrating! At least I know how to do this. 
So there. Just know that the quote I would have this week, if I could figure out how to do it, would be
"The Devil’s favorite axiom is the deterministic excuse for evil."
— Russell, Mephistophiles
Or maybe.....
"…free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give [creatures] free will?
Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing
that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."
— C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Or finally,
"We have to believe in free will. We have no choice."
— Isaac Singer
But since I can't figure it out, we won't have ANY quotes. And that's all I have to say about THAT.
:)
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GODesteem
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 8/7/2001 4:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Triskal writes:
"Doc, one question. Why does the book of Job always be sure to clarify that "in all this, Job did not sin." What was the point of making that so clear? I mean, if the whole point of the book is to refute Job's theology, then why would it matter or not if Job sinned or didn't sin?"
My response:
Great point, Matt. It is unfortunate when people read half of a passage, and ignore context.
"Job 1:21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
Job 1:22 ¶ Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God."
If Job was really speaking the words of Satan, wouldn't that be sin? God is in complete control of life and death, and there are many many passages beyond Job 1:21 to prove it. Job knew his God, and though he later said things which were full of ignorance and anger (sin), he got it right this time.
God is a jealous God, and upholds His freedom as a very important manifestation of His glory.
Benjamin Musclow
God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure! | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/7/2001 9:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Godesteem: " It is unfortunate when people read half of a passage, and ignore context."
Doc: Nice one. The pen-ultimate context is the entire book of Job (the ultimate context being the whole Bible). After the climax of this book (the divine speeches) Job confesses "I have uttered what I did not understand," (42:3). THAT surely is part of the "context."
Also part of the context is this: The answer to the question raised in this book is found in God's speeches in chapters 37-41. What is interesting is that God never endorses Job's theology, any more than he endorses the pious sounding theology of Jobs three friends. He rather points to the complexity of creation and to the forces of chaos and evil (Leviathan and Behemoth).
Moreover, the implications of Job's theology are worked out, with ruthless consistency, throughout this book. He says God is a creator and destroyer (same as "Lord gives and Lord takes), a mocker of innoncent people in pain, a God who causes Judges to be blind to justice, an "adversary" who is a roaring lion who rips people to shreds, a disinterested deity who doesn't answer prayer, etc. All this makes sense if God is in fact the ultimate cause of injustice and pain in the world, as Job believed. Pain sometimes brings crystal clarity to ones perceptions. Job was a consistent Calvinist.! But its hard to believe the author of this work actually wanted to condone this theology.
Yet this epic poem is a masterpiece of subtley. It doesn't have clear cut "good guys" and "bad guys." Job's friends, though rebuked by God, and though he says they didn't speak "rightly" (42:12), yet utter some truth. Job, on the other hand, did speak "rightly," though he uttered much untruth. The word kunl ("right") is not the usual word for "true" (that is met). It's root has the connotation of depth, a foundation... The point, in my view, is that WHAT Job uttered was incorrect -- "things I did not understand." But the honest authenticity with which he spoke was "right."
So, I yet contend, if "read in context," Job 1:21-22 shouldn't be assumed to be the view this book is endorsing, though Job's authenticity IS.
Give it a go.
Doc
ps. to say that something is not totally accurate of God is not necessarily to say it is "of Satan."
"Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." C.S.Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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