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Triskal
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 8/2/2001 6:18 PM (GMT -6)

I've got a couple of questions that i've always wondered, but never bothered to ask or find out on my own. They're regarding Satan, and his will as opposed to God's will.

Is Satan's will always the exact opposite of God's will?

What is Satan's ultimate goal?

Does he know that he is already defeated? If so, then why does he continue to fight on?

One question that has ALWAYS bothered me is, why did God give US a second chance, and not Satan? I mean, Satan fell away, and so did we. So why did God choose just us to give a second chance? Didn't he love Satan too?

In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 8/2/2001 6:57 PM (GMT -6)

Matt writes: "What is Satan's ultimate goal? Does he know that he is already defeated? If so, then why does he continue to fight on?"

Cool question! You know why? Because I just happen to have read the answer to it today in one of my favorite booksThe Sacred Romance by Brent Curtis & John Eldredge (one of my other favorites would be Doc's book God of the Possible) Anyway, in the book they give the answer to the questions you ask. On p.104 "Being unable to defeat God through raw power, Satan's legions decide to wound God as deeply as possible by stealing the love of his beloved through seduction. And having "seduced them to his party," to mock them even as they are hurled to the depths of hell with God himself unable to save them because of their rejection of him. This is Satan's motivation for every man, woman, and child into whom God ever breathed the breath of life. Like a roaring lion, he "hungers" for us."

We are the object of God's affection!
trosie

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 8/3/2001 5:46 AM (GMT -6)

Nice quote Trosie. I too really enjoyed The Sacred Romance and would recommend it hightly.

On to Triskal's questions:
1) Is Satan's will always the exact opposite of God's will?

If God's will is always good, for HE is perfectly good, and if Satan is totally evil, having no goodness in him whatsoever, then Satan's will must be at all times opposed to God's will.

But "opposed to" is not necessarily "the exact opposite of." There are times where God and Satan will the same thing (as, for example, David numbering his army: 2 Sam says it was Satan, 2 Chron says it was Satan), but they do so for opposing reasons.

In this case God wanted to judge Israel, while Satan just delighted in inspiring people to disobey God. God had previously commanded Israel NOT to rely on its army (viz. by counting them to make sure they had enough), so God allowed Satan to incite David to do what his heart obviously didn't rule out -- hence disobey God, hence bring about judgement. God sometimes (though Scripture never suggests ALWAYS) uses the wills of fallen angelic powers and people to his own advantage. (If we universalize this principle, however, we go beyond Scripture and end up with the Augustinian view that every evil thing that ever occurred has been advangeous, at least to God.

2) and 3) What is Satan's ultimate goal? Does he know that he is already defeated? If so, then why does he continue to fight on?

I think Trosie's quote said it well. There is an evil that is incurably evil and does evil just for the sake of evil without hope of ever being other than evil.

4) why did God give US a second chance, and not Satan? I mean, Satan fell away, and so did we. So why did God choose just us to give a second chance? Didn't he love Satan too?

We know nothing about the details of the angelic rebellion. We are only told THAT they fell. How, why, how long it took, etc. is kept from us. So its impossible to answer this question, or even know for sure whether the question is a question (maybe he DID give a second chance).

If God in fact didn't give a second chance, it must be because the hardwiring of angelic beings, unlike the hardwiring of humans, is such that characters are resolved by single decisions. Humans have to work at becoming irredeemable -- viz. so hardened there is no possibility of God turning us around. Angels, perhaps, become irreversibly resolved for or against God by a single decision. Hence, our probationary period is long while there's is short (if in fact we are guessing in the right direction here.)

For what its worth

Doc

"Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." C.S.Lewis

aranjuez
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 8/3/2001 8:33 AM (GMT -6)

Trosie,
In another forum (I cannot find where, that's why I write in this one) you suggest the idea of having a "Book-club" on-line. I personally think it's a great idea. You've menioned several times "The secret Romance" or Dr. Boyd's "God of the Possible". I would love to read "God of the possible" and discuss it with people that have already read it and the author himself!!! What do you think?
Thanks Trosie and Doc for answering Matt's question about satan; I had also wondered at times but never asked.

In Christ,
Aranjuez

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 8/3/2001 6:36 PM (GMT -6)

aranjuez writes: "I would love to read "God of the possible" and discuss it with people that have already read it and the author himself!!! What do you think?"

I think reading the book God of the Possible together might be interesting for a few reasons. First, because, like you mentioned, the author of the book is part of this board hence I agree that it would be fun to discuss it not only with the the participants in the room but also with the Doc (author) himself. Also, because the Open View seems to be a BIG topic of discussion on this web site. One final reason that God of the Possible would be interesting to discuss is because it would be intriguing to hear insights and comments about this book from "newly converted" open view folk like Memphi.

Personally, I found reading God of the Possible to be life changing for me. It opened my mind and freed me up inside by understanding that God DOESN'T predestine the events of our lives -- there's a war going on in the heavenlies. It motivated me to pray like never before because I finally realized that the outcomes to situations REALLY do hang in the balance depending on whether we pray or not.

trosie

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 8/4/2001 12:21 AM (GMT -6)

I've read Sacred Romance and think it would make for a great discussion. But I've heard this God of the Possible book is dangerous and that the author is a view cards short of a full deck, if you know what I mean. Try Calvin's Institutes instead.

"Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." C.S.Lewis

aranjuez
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 8/4/2001 5:09 AM (GMT -6)

Doc said: "Try Calvin's Institues instead"

Aranjuez:
Very funny... Thanks, but no thanks... Why don't we read "Don Quixote" in Spanish instead? That would proplably make as much sense to you as Calvin's Institutes to me!!!

Blesings
Aranjuez

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 8/4/2001 7:20 AM (GMT -6)

Doc:"But I've heard this God of the Possible book is dangerous and that the author is a view cards short of a full deck, if you know what I mean."

Short of a full deck, eh! Well Doc, we all love you anyway

Aranjuez, reading in spanish might be fun and challenging! What an idea.

Blessings,
trosie

Tomarctus
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 12

Posted 8/6/2001 3:37 AM (GMT -6)

I would be interested in reading one of Dr. Boyd's book together with you. I'm currently reading "God at War" and I was going to read "Cynic Sage or Son of God" next because part 2 of Dr. Boyd's thesis on the warfare worldview "Satan and the problem of evil" is not published yet. I would gladly read "God of the Possible" if that's the one we were going to read together.

I am definately one of the "nonspecialist" readers that Dr. Boyd mentions in the intro of God at War, and am mostly left in a state of confusion as I read some of the postings on this board. I still think that something good would come out of reading and discussing books with others rather that leaning on my own interpretations.

So, sign me up! Hopefully I have breathed new life into this idea.

Thanks,
Tom.

Triskal
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 8/6/2001 2:41 PM (GMT -6)

Either of those books (God of the Possible, The Sacred Romance) would be a lot of fun to read and discuss with everyone here. I've also mentioned a GREAT book that I just picked up today in the book club idea thread. If anyone's interested please read my latest post on that thread.

In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 8/7/2001 6:50 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

I would be interested in reading one of Dr. Boyd's book together with you. I'm currently reading "God at War" and I was going to read "Cynic Sage or Son of God" next because

This has been some what of a question I had. Seeing as OT is very controversial. Did Greg come out with Cynic Sage (of which I read) first so as to tell the evangelical world, "Hey, I'm still evangelical, but I am an OV'er?"

I don't have any problems with this at all if this is what he did. There's nothing wrong with earning or establishing your right to be heard and then move over into more controversial areas. Greg? What say thee drummer boy?

Brandon

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 8/7/2001 8:37 AM (GMT -6)

Brandon,

Cynic Sage or Son of God? was written because the Jesus Seminar was having a field day with the media and gaining a lot of notoriety, while there had been nothing written by evangelicals by way of response. The openness controversy had not yet hit the fan. My "openness" theology was at the time, in my mind, a relatively minor part of my whole theological system. I never DREAMED it would be as controversial as it now is.

I'm glad for the controversy, however, for it has helped develop my views and the views of many others. Among other things, I now see (what I didn't see six years ago) that, while the openness perspective is incidental to the Gospel as a whole, it DOES have significant ramifications for theology -- much more than I had previously seen. It involves nothing less than an alternative model of reality.

For what its worth

Doc

"Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." C.S.Lewis

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 8/8/2001 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

It involves nothing less than an alternative model of reality.

For what its worth

Doc

A major paradigm shift regarding how complex the universe is. So that the question is not so much a question of our interpretation of scripture or God but our understanding of reality. Correct?

Brandon

Edited by - BBBCanada on 08/08/2001 10:56:06 AM

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 8/8/2001 6:18 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Doc, I am curious. Since you were interviewed in "Case For Christ," has that helped with getting others to give you a hearing on the "open view." Have you from Strobel about other projects? John 17:3 Harold

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