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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/20/2001 3:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi all-
I was just listening this evening to a very well known pastor and TV personality. Not a crazy dude. This guy is respectable and, how shall I say it, traditional. He pastors in Florida and has been on TV for years. Anyhow, he was talking about the temptation we face to "make gods" of different things, e.g. our homes, our cars, our status, even our "families." Some people make their family, i.e., their children, their god. With this, he said, "And do you know what God does to our 'gods'? He has a way of trowing them to the ground and crushing them. And do you want God to do that to your children?"
Did I understand him rightly?
Tom
“Christianity is all for practice, and so much time as is spent in quarrels about it is a diminution to its interest. We inquire so much what it is that we have but little time left to be Christians.” Jeremy Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 10/20/2001 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tom,
You asked,
quote:
Did I understand him rightly?
I don't know. It depends on what you think he was implying by what he said, and what he really meant to imply.
To me, it sounds like he is saying that if we make our children into idols (I'm talking hypothetically here, I don't have any children), then God might just "crush them" to teach us a lesson about making things into "gods." How? Consider the possibilities--our kids could be kidnapped, murdered, accidentially killed, hurt, etc. And this is somehow supposed to punish parents for making their kids into "gods." Seems to me like the kids themselves take the grunt of the punishment themselves, though, for something that they had nothing to do with.
I don't think it's particularly healthy when parents treat their kids as being at the absolute center of their lives, but I think there may be productive ways to teach parents about this that don't involve "crushing" their children.
But maybe this pastor didn't mean it like this at all...I don't know. What do you think Tom?
**********************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 10/20/2001 6:26 PM (GMT -6) | | I actually experienced that kind of thing first hand, Tom. My six-year-old cousin (who lived with us frequently because of an alcoholic Dad, so he was more like a brother to me) was hit by a car and killed on Easter Sunday when I was seventeen years old. Among the many fumbled attempts at carving some kind of God-understanding out of this, someone suggested that his mother put him before God, so God took him away from her. I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but I think you probably understood this guy accurately.
Now, let me say this: I agree that we need to place God above all else in our lives. I agree with this man that anything that replaces God in our lives is an idol. However, I think that Jesus has demonstrated his love for us in striking ways, and his creativity is unbounded. My guess is that he would find some other way to bring us into conformity. And if the unthinkable is true, and Jesus really did orchestrate Scotty's death, his mom probably could have waited a few years to hear that possibility in a way that would not have sounded to her like she may have been at fault in her child's death.
OK, I'll breathe now.
Please folks, let's not come at grieving people with things like this no matter what our theological guesses are.
Mouse
"The opposite of being in despair is to have faith." Anti-Climacus | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 10/20/2001 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Mouse,
What a horrible, traumatic event to have happened to you and your family.
quote:
Please folks, let's not come at grieving people with things like this no matter what our theological guesses are.
AMEN!
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 10/20/2001 9:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Please folks, let's not come at grieving people with things like this no matter what our theological guesses are.
Mouse...I can't emphasize enough that I hear what you are saying. My 13 year old brother died in an accident when I was 15, on Good Friday. It's a hard time of year to lose people as you know (like any time is good). I remember my mom telling me that she wanted Jesus to raise my brother up again on Easter Sunday. A weird thought I guess, but grieving people say all kinds of things that we may not understand.
I've been accused before of making my theology too "experiential" at times, and there is probably some truth to that, but sometimes experience is all I've got to go on. So here's what I know--it's so easy to be so quick to offer theological answers to people who are hurting. About a year ago I came across an envelope full of letters I had received from kids in my youth group after my brother died. Re-reading them was almost fascinating, in a way--because it was a very candid look into how (I think) even kids have been "programmed" to respond to tragedy. They all differed somewhat, but nearly all of them said something like this: "God knows what he's doing." "God had a reason for doing this." "Remember God is in control." "Sometimes we don't know why God does these things." And so on...you get the picture. The assumptions behind those statements are HUGE--not that any of the kids who wrote them knew that. They were just regurgitating what they had heard said many times before.
Over the past years I've had a few people come to me and ask how they should respond to someone they know who's lost a loved one. Hard question, because I'm 7 years removed from the situation. I've forgotten some of what I felt back when the pain was fresh. But what I do remember is that very few people around me were willing to listen. I don't even know if I wanted to talk much...probably not. But if I did, I don't know if I could have found someone who would have really listened. If you choose to be available to someone, to simply sit and listen--you make yourself vulnerable. You might hear things you would rather not hear. You might find yourself drawn into someone else's grief (never an easy thing). You might have to bite your tongue and not try to answer every unanswerable question they put forth. Eventually, they're gonna want to talk theology about things, like the unanswerable questions. But give them some time. This kind of stuff doesn't fit in nice boxes, it doesn't follow a 10-step program, it can get messy...but that's how life is.
***********************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb
Edited by - whasssuuuppp on 10/21/2001 02:35:59 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 10/20/2001 10:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If you choose to be available to someone, to simply sit and listen--you make yourself vulnerable. You might hear things you would rather not hear. You might find yourself drawn into someone else's grief (never an easy thing). You might have to bite your tongue and not try to answer every unanswerable question they put forth. Eventually, they're gonna want to talk theology about things, like the unanswerable questions. But give them some time. This kind of stuff doesn't fit in nice boxes, it doesn't follow a 10-step program, it can get messy...but that's how life is.
Jen, that's beautiful. When there are no words to make it better, it's best not to offer any.
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 10/21/2001 7:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"And do you know what God does to our 'gods'? He has a way of trowing them to the ground and crushing them. And do you want God to do that to your children?"
Did I understand him rightly?
That's a pretty chilling statement. It's no wonder people get this picture of God as being some angry old guy up in the clouds ready to strike down anyone who commits a sin. Good grief. I think someone needs to get that pastor to lighten up a bit.
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Edited by - Triskal on 10/22/2001 12:55:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/21/2001 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | I too have heard people claim that God took someone's child because the parents loved them too much. I wish Churchmouses experience was a rare exception. But its not.
The view is horrendous, but if you think about it, it logically follows from the blueprint worldview.
* If God always does the right thing
* And if all events happen either because God ordains them, or at least specifically allows them
* Then whatever happens is for a good divine reason
So when a kid dies (or terrorists fly planes into buildings) it makes sense to ask -- why did God allow this?
And proposing that he did this to discipline the parents is as good a reason as any, I suppose. It actually is the oldest reason given that I know of. Augustine suggested this (though he held out the possibility that the child was being punished for having been born with original sin).
Anyone see why I have a certain energy about confronting the blueprint worldview???
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 10/21/2001 8:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc: Anyone see why I have a certain energy about confronting the blueprint worldview???
I can absolutely see why you promote the warfare view! The type of screwy theology
that the blueprint teaches is what hooked me into the warfare view a few years ago. I see no way one can say that the tragedies that Churchmouse and Whasssuuuppp's families experienced were some form of God's punishment, and then maintain that God is absolute love. How sad that so many people are trapped in the type of theology that the television pastor was presenting.
I agree with those who have said using children to teach a lesson just doesn't seem like something God would do.
trosie
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/22/2001 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I confess that's precisely what I thought the speaker meant. If you love your kids too much, God would discipline you by killing them. But of course, our loving them more than God was the predetermined blueprint as well.
Tom
“Christianity is all for practice, and so much time as is spent in quarrels about it is a diminution to its interest. We inquire so much what it is that we have but little time left to be Christians.” Jeremy Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 10/23/2001 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh, come now, people! Surely you don't think that Doc's warfare worldview completely solves this problem. Hasn't that fact been brought out time and again? The warfare worldview, when consistently thought out, has the SAME problem as the classical theism, just a different DEGREE. Hmmm...I guess we may have to rehash this again...
Oh, and by the way...let's not act like our God hasn't caused people immense pain for his own purposes, ok?
Ezekiel 24:6-24
"Son of man, with one blow I am about to take away from you the delight of your eyes. Yet do not lament or weep or shed any tears. Groan quietly; do not mourn for the dead. Keep your turban fastened and your sandals on your feet; do not cover the lower part of your face or eat the customary food of mourners."
[Mephs note: This is a LOVELY thing to tell a husband, right? Something any well-adjusted, emotionally stable, omnibenevolent being would tell a person, right? Don't mourn for the very delight of your eyes that I know you love. Sheeyeah... And before we get anyone trying to get God of the hook...the text SPECIFICALLY says that GOD was taking her away...not "allowing" jack!]
So I spoke to the people in the morning, and in the evening my wife died. The next morning I did as I had been commanded. Then the people asked me, "Won't you tell us what these things have to do with us?" So I said to them, "The word of the LORD came to me: Say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to desecrate my sanctuary-- the stronghold in which you take pride, the delight of your eyes, the object of your affection. The sons and daughters you left behind will fall by the sword. And you will do as I have done. You will not cover the lower part of your face or eat the customary food of mourners. You will keep your turbans on your heads and your sandals on your feet. You will not mourn or weep but will waste away because of your sins and groan among yourselves. Ezekiel will be a sign to you; you will do just as he has done. When this happens, you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.'
[Meph notes: Just to clarify. God kills his servant's BELOVED wife...to get a point across to people...who ultimately didn't even care. Real nice.]
Let's not stop there. How about the Abraham thing? I don't know about you but I've heard this scenario from more than one theologian...
"The reason that God did what he did in the Abraham/Issac thing was to not only test Abraham's faith, but at the same time, prevent ANY IDOLATRY that Abraham may have began to have for his beloved son."
If this is true, then what does this say about God?
Think about it.
PS: Yep. I'm being a tad sardonic in this one. So? 
Edited by - mephi2K on 10/23/2001 09:04:35 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 10/23/2001 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Meph,
I think you're missing the point (at least my point). I didn't say it was impossible that God actually did that. I think it's highly unlikely, but I would never presume to say I know exactly what happened for sure. However, I am opposed to Christians pronouncing their theological guesses on grieving people for the purposes of making their own lives more comfortable.
So, would you ever say that God took someone's child because they loved the child too much? I don't think you would. You are arguing what is theologically conceivable, and I am arguing that what may be theologically conceivable is not helpful to the grieving. Put yourself in their place. Your newborn son dies suddenly, and someone suggests that he died because you gave too much of your heart. PLEASE TELL ME YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING.
The only thing I can see as even remotely helpful about these kinds of issues is that they might bring us back to the realization that our children don't really belong to us. The first time I took my kids with me to Haiti I became very afraid. So many dangers. But God communicated to me in a very loving way that they would be safe. I felt better. Then God showed up again and told me that "safe" meant something different to God than it did to me. When God told me my kids would be safe, he didn't mean they would never be harmed. He meant it in an ultimate sense. He was telling me to give them up. Completely. It was very hard to do. I have to keep doing it every day.
But I love my kids so much, and I don't know what it would look like to love them too much. I love them as the gifts they are. I hope my hands are open. I hope. But if my children are taken tomorrow, no one had better come at me with this kind of God-talk. Just don't go there. Please.
Mouse
"The opposite of being in despair is to have faith." Anti-Climacus | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 10/23/2001 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Mouse,
My main qualm had nothing at all with your point, Mouse. Actually, we AGREE somewhat. You (and I) are basically making this point:
SOMETIMES, SILENCE IS GOLDEN.
While YOU are saying that empathetic silence beats theological browbeating in existential struggles anyday (with which I wholeheartedly concur), I am saying that people should be a LOT more humble about what they think God will or won't do or say. My main thrust was spurred by Doc's post followed by Trosie's. Doc calls the view "horrendous", but to my eye, this is JUST the type of behavior that God has exhibited in the OT. I'm like "What's up with that?" Moreover, I recognize the simple fact that this type of "horrendous" behavior is, as you wisely noted, quite possible in the warfare worldview (ie God's punishment of idolatry by taking people away) The warfare worldview has the same problem as classical theism but in a lesser DEGREE (as Wislawa one aptly pointed out) That's all I was saying.
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churchmouse522
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 10/23/2001 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Got it. Thanks.
Mouse
"The opposite of being in despair is to have faith." Anti-Climacus | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 10/27/2001 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Any comments on the Ezekiel passage I talk about? I'd love to hear a open view take on it. Was there no other way that the infinitely intelligent God could get his point across to His people than to willingly (and apparently, prematurely) take the life of Ezekiel's beloved wife...and commanding him not to mourn? Is there really any kind of "givens" that we can consider that would justify this as being the BEST option for God's purposes? Just wondering aloud...
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godsavedenver
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 10/28/2001 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Greetings to one and all,
I'm new to the forum though i've read from a distance for a while. this thread has touched on a topic that has interested me for some time and i have yet to get a satisfactory answer.
In TGB's first post, describing the the TV pastor's statements of God's dealings with idols -- parents and their children in particular -- the big idea being communicated is that of God's discipline to our sin and disobedience. Doc used this phrase when he stated:
quote:
And proposing that he did this to discipline the parents...
Hebrews 12 tells us not "to make light of the Lord's discipline... He disciplines those He loves, and punishes everyone He accepts as a son..." My question then is how does God discipline us?
I've heard a great number of people tell of the horrible circumstances they've endured because "God was trying to teach them a lesson to be obedient" and stop sinning, (or working "brokeness" into their lives). Which is in essence what the TV pastor was saying.
Where do we draw the line then? How do we know which negative circumstnces are God's discipline or the warfare worldview thing in action or the natural results of our poor choices? Moses was disciplined by not being allowed to possess the promised land because he struck the rock instead of spoke to it. Pretty severe punishment that doesn't seem to fit the crime in my eyes. Do we then need to expect our life-dreams to be nixed when we sin? According to Mephi's quote from Ezekiel we can't say that it's unlike God to do this, and woe to the unlucky sucker that God picks to mess up their lives.
I've heard others that say He only disciplines us through conviction in our conscience or spirit when we pray and/or read the Bible. This reminds me of the parents in the restaurant that keep saying "Johnny, stop that" while the kid terrorizes the place and everyone in it, when he really just needs a good paddling in my opinion.
What are your thoughts on God's discipline in our lives?
~gsd
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geej
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 10/28/2001 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems wrong to think that God would kill a child or maime them because the parents turned them into idols. It would make sense that turning the children into idols could ruin marriages or relationships with Christ or by turning them into idols and not teaching the kids how to be good citizens etc. the "idols" could be destroyed as a natural consequence of not having limits, knowing how to give and/or share or how to give of themselves to others and how to be responsible, hard-working people.
I've always been told that the priorties in a marriage should be as follows:
God
Your spouse
Your children
Since I'm not married yet, I'm not sure if this is correct but it does make sense.
GJ
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