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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/15/2003 7:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | With this kind of theology ...
"The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service,--when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation." John Calvin, I, 17, 11
John Calvin's "god" was worst than the devil.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/15/2003 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | | While I am very opposed to many of Calvin's teachings, I find it counter-productive to the body to bring up teachings. I believe of our theological heros have most likely uttered something they are ashamed of sometime in their lives...regardless, what he said in the post as no bearing on whether or not his actual theology is right or wrong. We should spend our valuable time refuting that. | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/15/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
While I am very opposed to many of Calvin's teachings, I find it counter-productive to the body to bring up teachings. I believe of our theological heros have most likely uttered something they are ashamed of sometime in their lives...regardless, what he said in the post as no bearing on whether or not his actual theology is right or wrong. We should spend our valuable time refuting that.
I'm sorry. Please give me a better explanation of how my quote is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to the body of Christ, because the one about "... our theological heros have most likely uttered something they are ashamed of sometime in their lives" just seems to fly over my head when it comes to John Calvin. Had he repented of this later in life then I could see your point. As a matter of fact, had he renounced this type of teaching I would have never even brought up.
Unfortunately, not only did Calvin NOT renounce such teaching, as is evidenced by the webpage Earp provides, he further expounded on it. Furthermore, Calvin's doctrine of "divine sovereignty" effected how he governed Geneva, which from historical records was not done with mercy and love.
Present day Calvinists strongly espouse this theology today as if it were the gospel, causing many people to back off from prayer and reolving themselves to a "que sera sera" attitude because whatever is happening in their lives is God's will for them.
So again, if you feel that I am wrong, I would encourage you to do better in your explanation of why I am in error.
Blessings to ya'
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 12/15/2003 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Regarding doctrine and dogma,
I believe that each of us no matter what our education or background all have at least some sort of "heresy" in our doctrinal beliefs whether it be regarding God, the Bible, etc. These of course can be influenced by culture, science, or personal experiences.
It does annoy me when someone claims to "speak for God" or say "this is how it is" when in fact it often is their own interpretation. Such an attitude is often rooted in sinful pride and puts "God in a box" so to speak. No, we can't understand fully who God is or how He "thinks". We can only get glimpses of what kind of being He is.
However, on the flip side, we not ought to be wishy-washy in our theology either stretching the "interpretative" aspect of text to ludicrous proportions. Truth would not be important if it were not also exclusive (i.e. something is wrong). I believe there are times to stand firm on certain dogmas, especially regarding Jesus.
Perhaps the best way to approach healthy debate and disucssions is to realize that our analysis is not exhaustive and our ruleset (logic, reason, etc.) is "incomplete".
As for Calvin, I agree that I don't think a lot of what he stated is absolute truth, however I speculate he would be saddened seeing how people today who hold his teaching so reverently neglecting prayer and charity.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/16/2003 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman
Forgive me for my earlier my reaction to your post. I did not know that my quote by John Calvin would be offensive in this forum. This forum and it's participants are a little different than some of the forums I have been to on the net. I came here because I was leaning towards Open Theism but was struggling with it because most of my 19 years of Christianity I was indoctrinated with the belief that God "knew the end from the beginning" (a misquote of Isa. 46:10), or that He had exhaustive knowledge of everything that would occur in the future.
Due to my having embrace many Charismatic teachings early in my Christian walk, I have always in a sense held to a "warfare worldview" vice a "blueprint worldview" though I never saw it in those terms until I began reading Dr. Boyd's books. I never could embrace the classic teaching of God's sovereignty, or the belief that every rotten thing that happens comes from His hand (I even heard a variation of that teaching this morning driving to work and listening to Christian radio). I never could understand how anyone could believe it.
Therefore, I set out to challenge this teaching. However, after attempting to challenge those who held to a "all controlling sovereignty" doctrine and presenting a view of God and faith, I was challenged on some of my own Charismatic beliefs. I was finding them quite inconsistent with the belief that God had exhaustive foreknowledge. Equally inconsistent is the belief that God lived outside of time and saw the past, present, and future simultaneously. After discussing these inconsistency with a good friend over the net, it was he who asked me to consider the Open View.
I searched this thing out. Read much material - both pro and con. I wanted to accept it but had some struggles because of my indoctrination. However, the Scriptures that supported the OV could not be denied. The books were a help but I needed more help, basically I needed interaction with people so that I could get answers.
Thus I came here. I figured who would be more knowledgeable of OV than those who frequent Dr. Boyd's site? I figured if there was any place that I can interact and get answers, this is the place. That is why I am here. I want to learn more. I want to interact. I also like to contribute ideas and discoveries that I have made in my own research and study. I have to admit though, I do not always feel so welcomed here.
Nevertheless, I am NOT here to stir up trouble or incite division. I enjoy debate and discussion and I can even put up a good fight. However, if my presence seems threatening to the majority of board members, I will bow out gracefully.
Many blessings to you all my friends.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/16/2003 5:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | I was not offended by the comments. I simply find that bringing up "dirt," so to speak, or bringing up such comments by Calvin would be counter-productive to dialogue is all. I would hope Calvinists would feel welcome here....thats all. But perhaps I was wrong... | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/16/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I honestly don't know what honorman's beef is about simply quoting Calvin's own words, but don't let it bother you.
Why do the facts of Calvin's words and the facts Calvin's actions (body count) offend followers of Calvin so much? Were these to remain a part of the "mystery" but slipped out?
"Just the facts, ma'am."
I think it very well could be because Calvin has been placed on such a high pedastal by them, but who knows? Most Calvinists I've brought these things up to simply shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, it was the times he lived in. Look at what the Roman Catholics were doing!" (As if two wrongs make a right). I've even had some respond by saying it is not fair to use an "ad hominem" against Calvin. (As if pointing out FACTS of how tyrannical and murderous he was is somehow unfair or inconsequential to his theological position).
As to his doctrinal statements, I've interacted with several Cals who seem to be trying very hard to make up down, right left, and good bad, attempting to explain how something can BE God's will and NOT BE God's will at the same time.
He loves me, he loves me not...
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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