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phil_five
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 29

Posted 12/27/2003 3:04 PM (GMT -6)

Hey all,
I hope the holidays are finding you all well. I guess that things have seemed kind of slow on the board, so I thought I would post something I have thought and wondered about.

From what I can tell the Bible seems to say that in the last days mankind will become more wicked or evil or whatever. And I have always been of the mindset that "there is nothing new under the sun."
Sure, there are waves of conservativism and liberalism, of what is acceptable in society, but I think if one could measure the intentions of peoples' hearts things would be relatively the same.

I guess along those lines is the question: What does the New Testament mean by the last days? Because it would seem that nearly everyone in the NT believes that the end of the world would be in their lifetime, or soon after. (Maybe they didn't though, I really don't know.)

Anyway, I hope this isn't too incoherent. And I look forward to reading posts.
Phil

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 12/29/2003 7:40 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Phil Five!
I'll take a crack at this. In the time just before the Noahic flood, the people of Earth had become so corrupt inside and out that God decided to essentially cleanse the Earth of them. Apparently humans had gradually gotten worse in their sin from the Fall till the flood. So, it's probably safe to assume that most humans will gradually get worse in their sin right before the Earth is cleansed by fire.

As to your second question: Jesus said that no one but the Father would know when He would send Christ to return in the last days. The early Church had just as much reason to think Jesus would be returning in their time as we do now because all the events that were unfolding before them appeared to be the "final birth pangs." We have no way of knowing any more than they do, but Christ's return is just as imminent now, if not more so. But, for all we know, it could be another 1000 years before He returns and the people living in that age could wonder the same thing about us!

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/29/2003 8:12 PM (GMT -6)

Hi phil five. Things always slow down around the holidays -- as they probably should. Its time to spend with family, if possible.

Anyways, my take on "the last days...."

* The more I learn of history, the more thankful I am that I live in the times I live. The earth is evil today, but I don't see that its close to where it was a thousand years ago. True, you still have genocidal mass murdering going on in parts of the world. But it strikes me that this was much more common in the ancient world. Human life seems to have taken on more value.

* Having said this, I'm no optimist. Its just that I see no evidence for a doom and gloom pessimism either. I hope things keep improving, but they may not. I would like to believe that post-millenialist were correct at least to the point of believing the earth would "slip" into the Kingdom of God without massive destruction, but they may be wrong.

* In either case, I'm hesitant to try to force my estimation of how things are going into the Proscrustean bed of a particular interpretation of a particular passage about "the last days." Some people seem to feel it there obligation to paint the world in as darkest terms as possible to remain faithful to Scripture.

Paul and Jesus do speak about how things will get terrible "in the last days" -- and if this happens in the future, so be it. But I rather suspect, along with many scholars, that Jesus and Paul understood these worsening conditions and the end of the world in relation to the destruction of Israel in 70 AD. (This is called the Preterist perspective. A GREAT author on this is N.T. Wright).

* In general, the "last days" refers to the last chapter of God's involvement with history -- which is from Christ to the end. So, we've been in the last days for two thousand years. It may be that the doom and gloom Jesus and Paul speak of has already happened (in 70AD) as part of the last days.

Happy Holidays,
and lets hope for a BLESSED (not doom and gloom) NEW YEAR.

Doc

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 12/30/2003 9:06 AM (GMT -6)

Just want to confirm what Doc said, but add that from an a-millenialist perspective, the premillenial and post-millenial have historically reflected the pessimism/optimism of US Christianity. This doctrine though is a relatively recent innovation for Christians and I view it as comparable to the accretionary beliefs regarding the virginity of Mary and so on.

What matters is that Christ will return and we are to glorify him by establishing his kingdom. I would argue that experience has shown that there is an important public dimension to our witness. Christianity has been dying out where the Church(es) became handpuppets of those in power, such as Europe after the 30 years war from 1618-1648. It remained alive in the US where there was a strong separation of Church and State, meaning their autonomy not segregation, and where Church(es) did tend to serve as advocates for the working-class populations.

So to make a long-story short, who will be responsible for the onset of the millenium is a complete red-herring. It is most likely that we are already "in" the "millenium". What matters is that Christian History has shown that our public witness is an important part of what ensures the continued vitality of the faith. Politics has important economic distributional implications. People's economic well-being is so fundamental that they will be more likely to be more religious if they perceive their churches as serving as an advocate for them rather than those with whom they are in economic/political conflict with. This is why the Catholic faith is more vibrant where it is a minority than where it is in power and a majority.

dlw

Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 12/31/2003 5:21 AM (GMT -6)

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Well, here's the only reference I can think of which showed that humans had reached a point of no return with their sins in Noah's time. I find it difficult to believe that people will be much different when Christ returns. Logic seems to imply that humans would become as much like the people in Noah's time, or worse, just before Christ's return, although the Bible doesn't seem to say that, as far as I remember. Either way, I doubt it's anything Christians need to worry about. We should simply keep sharing the Gospel with everyone like we always have and let the Holy Spirit take care of the rest. (Has anyone ever heard that Keith Green song, "He'll Take Care of the Rest"? Cool

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 12/31/2003 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

It seems clear to me that in general human society is improving and I expect things to continue to generally improve. I think this is a direct result of God's powerful intervention - dying on the cross for us. The incredible power of this one act continues to reverberate through individuals and therefore throughout society. It is the power of openness and love. The power of darkness is being repealed - piece by piece.

Jesus taught us to pray - "thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I think He is serious about this. I think He came down to earth not just to save individuals for the afterlife but through individuals to bring His kingdom to this earth so that many, many more individuals would become loving beings full of His Life. And I think He is making it happen - right here and right now.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 12/31/2003 2:25 PM (GMT -6)

The idea of an increase in BOTH evil AND good "in the last days" (which of course began with God sending his Son to redeem us- Heb. 1:2) seems to me to be the most clearly taught in Scripture. About the last days, the Bible seems to me to clearly to say that:

1. God's great desire and plan is to pour our His Spirit upon all mankind in the last days (Acts 2:16).

2. The gospel shall be preached for a witness into all nations (people groups) and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14)

3. Because lawlessness (sinfulness) shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold (Matt. 24:12). The moral climate of the world at the time of Christ's return will be "as it was in the days of Noah."

4. The Lord is delaying his coming so that more may have time to turn to Him in faith, as He is not willing that ANY should perish. (2 Pet. 3:9)

Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy.
19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 'The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 'And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

Jesus seemed to have a somewhat pessimistic view of the general state of mankind in the end times:

Matt 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Matt 24:3 ¶ As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for {those things} must take place, but {that} is not yet the end.
7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "But all these things are {merely} the beginning of birth pangs.
9 ¶ "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

Doesn't sound from this like things are going to get better and better. That the end of the age is referred to seems clear from the next two verses especially:

13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Paul apparently shared the same convictions as to how the last days would be:

2 Tim 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

If in fact Peter held a view of this issue contradictory to Jesus and Paul, he had a strange way of expressing it:

2 Pet 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior {spoken} by your apostles.
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with {their} mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For {ever} since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God {the} heavens existed long ago and {the} earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 ¶ But do not let this one {fact} escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 ¶ Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 ¶ Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

All scriptures NASB

I think the view advanced by me here (with both the evil and the good increasing up to the Second Coming) harmonizes the apparently disparate classes of Scripture texts about the last days.

As far as I know, all the standard eschatological views, whether premillenial, postmillenial, or amillenial posit a time of trouble right before the physical return of Christ to earth. Am I mistaken?

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

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