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PBS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 6

Posted 12/18/2001 6:02 AM (GMT -6)

I posted an introductory message last night to get my toes wet and let people know who I am and where I come from. I really don’t like people who blindside you in message boards by being less than totally open, or even sometimes outright dishonest, about their position and beliefs. If you want to lead me to a conclusion do it with reason and wisdom. Use the Socratic method. Use the techniques of the Wisdom literature or of Jesus’ teachings (i.e. Luke 20: 23-25). Just don’t use dishonesty. Christ didn’t, and we are called to imitate him.

(* getting down off soapbox *)

So here is my question. In the New Testament we have quite a few examples of people being possessed by demons. We also see Christ and his followers recognizing those people as demon possessed and casting out those demons. Those same demons that were possessing people in the first century have not died, because I believe they will not ever die. (They will be thrown into the pit forever, which is called the 2nd death, but their existence will not come to an end. They are not annihilated.) I also believe they have not been locked away in a spiritual prison to await the Final Judgment. So where are they? I believe they are still roaming about the Earth doing evil. (Note: I do believe that Satan and other fallen angels are bound in the sense that they have no power over the converted. Children of God have the protection of a Heavenly Father from demonic enemies.)

There were demons then, and there are demons now. Demons possessed non-believers then, and we have no reason (that I know of) from Scripture to believe they have stopped doing that now. So we come to a situation where in modern times an unknown amount of the unconverted population is running around possessed by demons. Here is the meat of the question: Believers in the first century easily RECOGNIZED certain people as demon possessed, modern believers do not. What is different now that we are not able to tell who is demon possessed.

For example, I look at some people in the present world who are labeled insane and I think that they might be demon possessed. Yet I have no certainty of that fact. I cannot tell the difference between a “naturally” crazy person, and someone who is demon possessed. For that matter I am not sure that a demon possessed person might not act like a perfectly normal well behaved citizen of society while working much more subtle deeds of evil.

So again I ask, if they could do it why can’t we. I look forward to your responses.

-PBS

Mark 4:38-40 (NKJV)
"Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, 'Peace, be still!' And the wind ceased and there was a great calm."

chambes
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 41

Posted 12/18/2001 9:37 AM (GMT -6)

Hey PBS, good to have on the board

quote:

(Note: I do believe that Satan and other fallen angels are bound in the sense that they have no power over the converted. Children of God have the protection of a Heavenly Father from demonic enemies.)

Could you clarify this note. Specifically, what do you mean by power? Is it power to tempt, sway, posess, or what?

quote:

Here is the meat of the question: Believers in the first century easily RECOGNIZED certain people as demon possessed, modern believers do not. What is different now that we are not able to tell who is demon possessed.

I think the reason we don't see many demon possesions as dramatic as the ones recorded in the New Testement has to do with Satan's strategy in our culture.
Satan has succeeded in making most of our population not believe in any spiritual realm, or at least not an evil spiritual realm. So, as long as most of the people in our country believe that, it is to his advantage to not overtly show himself. Charles Baudelaire wrote:
"Dearly beloved, never forget, when you hear anyone vaunt the progress of enlightenment, that the Devil's finest trick is to persuade you that he does not exist!"

I have heard many stories from missionaries and missionaries' kids about demon possesions in 3rd world countries, where the spiritual realm is much more open.

So, that's my theory, let me know what you think.

chambes

"In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/18/2001 9:48 AM (GMT -6)

Well spoken, Chambes.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

PBS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 6

Posted 12/18/2001 10:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Could you clarify this note. Specifically, what do you mean by power? Is it power to tempt, sway, possess, or what?

Tempt, yes he can. Possess, no he can't. Sway, maybe. If sway means the same thing as tempt then I say yes he can. If sway means to turn them from light to darkness, to "un-save" them, then no he can't.

I am not sure that all examples of possession were dramatic, as you put it. Certainly we have the story of the Legion and the epileptic son, which can be considered dramatic.

Mark 5 : 1-13
Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes. 2And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, 4because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. 5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.
6When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 7And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me."
8For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!" 9Then He asked him, "What is your name?"
And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many." 10Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.
11Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. 12So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them." 13And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.

Matthew 17:14-21
And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15"Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him."
17Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me." 18And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?"
20So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."

But there are other examples where we aren’t really given clues about what outwards signs there were.

Matthew 9: 32-33
32 As they went out, behold, they brought to Him a man, mute and demon-possessed. 33And when the demon was cast out, the mute spoke. And the multitudes marveled, saying, "It was never seen like this in Israel!"

Matthew 4: 23-25
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. 24Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

Matthew 8: 16
16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick…

Now this is not a list of all NT demon possessions. But my point is that in some cases we don’t get a clear example that someone was running around spewing green vomit or had their head spin off their shoulders.

Chambes, I think you make a very good point about the state of man today. He is very deceived. He is not mindful of spiritual things. People don’t believe the devil and demons are real. They believe that all men are essential good and lots of other garbage. Truly people are deceived. Yet, to a certain extent we should expect that from unbelievers.

Acts 28:25-27
25So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26saying,

"Go to this people and say:
"Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."'

I can’t help but feeling that we as believers should not be likewise deceived. If we are to be spiritual warriors ought not we be able to see our enemy? Now I don’t mean we have to be able to see with our eyes that a green demon with horns and a tail running around. But shouldn’t we be able to tell who is demon possessed. Let’s grant that the unconverted are blind, deaf and deceived. Let us grant that they cannot tell who is demon possessed. But shouldn’t we be able to?

I don’t know the answer to this question. I am just hoping to get some insights from this discussion.

Tempt, yes he can. Possess, no he can't. Sway, maybe. If sway means the same thing as tempt then I say yes he can. If sway means to turn them from light to darkness, to "un-save" them, then no he can't.

-PBS

Mark 4:38-40 (NKJV)
"Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, 'Peace, be still!' And the wind ceased and there was a great calm."

chambes
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 41

Posted 12/18/2001 11:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Tempt, yes he can. Possess, no he can't. Sway, maybe. If sway means the same thing as tempt then I say yes he can. If sway means to turn them from light to darkness, to "un-save" them, then no he can't.

I agree, just wanted to clarify.

quote:

I can’t help but feeling that we as believers should not be likewise deceived. If we are to be spiritual warriors ought not we be able to see our enemy? Now I don’t mean we have to be able to see with our eyes that a green demon with horns and a tail running around. But shouldn’t we be able to tell who is demon possessed. Let’s grant that the unconverted are blind, deaf and deceived. Let us grant that they cannot tell who is demon possessed. But shouldn’t we be able to?

My theory has less to do with people being deceived about a spiritual realm, than it does Satan not wanted to show himself because by doing so, he could harm his work of making people not believe in him.

This may explain why we don't see the dramatic types of demon possessions very often. But, I see your point about the not so dramatic, like the mute.

I guess when it comes to the subtle forms of demon possession its a matter of experience and spiritual maturity. Let's not forget that the NT accounts involve Jesus, the disciples or the apostles. I know that I am nowhere near the level of spiritual wisdom and discernment that these guys were. Maybe as we grow in our faith, and continue to walk with God, we are more and more able to sense the spiritual realm.

Anyone on the board have experience with demon possessions or the like?

chambes

"In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/18/2001 6:59 PM (GMT -6)

PBS, I think you'd like God at War. Demons are still running around. I think Chambes makes a good point about Satan's strategy. But it might also be the case that some who are diagnosed as "insane" in our cultural worldview would be diagnosed as "possessed" in the New Testaments worldview (and in most cultures throughout history). I have myself dealt with a number of such people. I believe in the ministry of exorcism.

One point to possibly supplement your view:

The word used to describe people "possessed" in the Gospel accounts is demonizomai. It does not mean "possessed" but "acted on by a demon." This admits of varying degrees, whereas the term possession does not. The Bible describes some possessed people, I believe -- e.g. Judas, the anti-Christ... -- but it doesn't use the word possessed. These people are not like demonized people. They are EVIL.

I agree that Christians can't be possessed. But I do think we can be demonized. We can have 'strongholds" which render us passive with regard to demonic activity in a certain area of our lives.

Blessings

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 12/18/2001 7:17 PM (GMT -6)

Hey PBS, Great thread!
I like what you said about being up front about what you believe. We have had a couple people come on the board last year doing the shuck and dive. But we have so many theology buffs on here they can’t dodge for long.

I agree that a believer can’t be possessed. But I would go beyond tempt and sway to
‘demonized’ meaning the enemy has a foothold or stronghold. I disagree that a Christian can’t fall away and lose their salvation, else why are there verses that warn of that very thing? Course that’s not the topic of discussion so we don’t have to go there.

I agree that disbelief and the schemes of the enemy both play a part in the seeming scarcity of the demonic. On the ‘Satan is real’ thread Cibertus wrote about getting a visit from a demon. I think this sort of manifestation is rare because as was mentioned they usually try not to reveal themselves, even to the point of coming disguised as an angel of light, or wrapped in a half truth. However this was a unique situation because Cibertus was talking to a guy in a Satanic cult. Perhaps the evangelization was seen as an attack by the enemy and they were using threatening scare tactics to get Cibertus to back off.

I think ‘discerning of spirits’ is a gift. Some people seem to have a remarkable ability to sense the presence of evil, in the environs, or around people. As Christians the more we abide in Christ the more sensitive we become to evil. God said the eyes are the windows to the soul. It really is amazing how deeply you can see into people when looking into their eyes.

More later,
Springs

"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal

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