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pia†desideria
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 12/21/2001 4:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | We always draw on Matthew and Luke for our reconstruction of the nativity scene. But what about Rev. 12? Oxen and asses were not the only beasts present.…apparently there was also a seven-headed, ten-horned Beast. Rev. 12 transforms the nativity scene into a full-fledged battleground for a cosmic war.
Check it out:
A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.…
And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back, but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.…
Here’s a summary of the action:
The child gets "snatched away and taken to God and to his throne" (vs. 5).
The woman is "given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness" (vs. 14) and "the earth came to the help of the woman" (vs. 16). (I love that.)
The dragon gets mad because he can’t catch her, and decides to "make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus" (vs. 17).
At the heart of the story is this song:
Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of God;
and the authority of his Messiah,
for the accuser of our comrades has been thrown down,
who accuses them day and night before our God.
But they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony,
for they did not cling to life even in the face of death.
Rejoice then, you heavens
and those who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you
with great wrath,
because he knows that his time is short! (vs. 10–12)
Merry Christmas,
pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
The dragon sits by the side of the road, watching those who pass. Beware lest he devour you. We go to the Father of Souls, but it is necessary to pass by the dragon. § St. Cyril of Jerusalem
Edited by - pia†desideria on 12/21/2001 09:58:07 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 12/21/2001 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | WOW Pia. THAT is great! And so timely! I'm preaching on the incarnation as an act of WAR this weekend. I'm arguing that we've got to be beyond the "cuteness" of our typical manger scenes to discover the profoundness of what its all about.
THANK YOU
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 12/21/2001 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Pia, on closer reading I'm thinking this might be too complex/wierd to integrate into my message. What do you make of these following questions?
Rev. 12:1 ¶ A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
If this is referring to Mary, what is the significance of the sun, moon nd stars?
.
Rev. 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born.
* A possible reference to Herod's attempt to kill Jesus?
Rev. 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne;
* Do you thinking the "snatching away" refers to his resurrection?
Rev. 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred sixty days.
* What the heck does the 1260 days refer to?
Rev. 12:7 ¶ And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev. 12:8 but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
* Is this conflating the primal war with the incarnation, or a second war, or what?
Just wondering.
Peace
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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| Posted 12/21/2001 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Like baby Moses in the midst of the chaos and crocodiles of the river Nile, the birth of Christ was not “cute.” Baby Jesus barely escaped death by Herod’s sword, starvation, infection, and/or exposure. According to the world, he was born a bastard, surrounded by scandal.
I think the incarnation is the most amazing revelation that nothing is too difficult for the God of the Possible. When we think of God’s intervention, we should think of the nativity scene rather than imagining zeus with a thunderbolt in his fist ready to zap our enemies or a knight in white shining armor ready to rescue us and sweep us off our feet. This ties in with Modes’ “Gospel of Suffering” thread. Maybe he can pick it up from here.…
Today is the darkest day of the year, and nothing gives me more hope than Christmas and nothing could be less “cute.”
pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
The dragon sits by the side of the road, watching those who pass. Beware lest he devour you. We go to the Father of Souls, but it is necessary to pass by the dragon. § St. Cyril of Jerusalem
Edited by - pia†desideria on 12/21/2001 11:01:43 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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| Posted 12/21/2001 6:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Pia, on closer reading I'm thinking this might be too complex/wierd to integrate into my message.
Ha! No doubt. People would have to use their imaginations. I think that rather than making a point by point correlation between Rev. 12 and Matthew and Luke’s versions of the nativity, the point is that there is huge cosmic significance to the nativity scene. Giving birth in the stable was not just precarious from a human point of view—from a spiritual point of view not only were beasts present, but so was the Beast!
pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
The dragon sits by the side of the road, watching those who pass. Beware lest he devour you. We go to the Father of Souls, but it is necessary to pass by the dragon. § St. Cyril of Jerusalem
Edited by - pia†desideria on 12/21/2001 11:04:40 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Total Posts : 817
| Posted 12/21/2001 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | From what I remember of a class on Revelation there are multiple images being drawn on in the image of Rev. 12:1. Obviously there are references to Mary, but also Israel (twelve stars must be some sort of reference to Israel given John's attention to Israel--particularly the twelveness of it--elsewhere in the book) and perhaps a deity of some sort (clothed with the sun and moon under feet suggest this or SOME cosmic significance at least). I have my notes at home so maybe I can haul them out later today....of course 12:13-17 will be problematic.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 12/21/2001 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Oooops! OF course, Eve is clearly present in the image as well.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
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| Posted 12/21/2001 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc:
Oh come on now. Have a little confidence in us. We can stand a little "complex/weird" once in a while. Give it to us straight!  Besides, with you as a pastor, we've all gotten pretty used to complex and weird. 
Pia:
Very, very cool stuff. Thanks.
Mouse
"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." Seal | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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| Posted 12/21/2001 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes: Are you trying to simplify the weirdness issue or complicate it? Just checkin’  . Rev. 12 is a condensed version of salvation history, with Creation, Exodus, Incarnation, and Second Coming all rolled into one. Quite a trip. If you could only keep one chapter out of the whole Bible, this would be the one to hang on to.
Mouse: Complex/weird is cool with me too. For example, my favorite animal…er, creature…is the squid (it’s a long story). I just read in the news that they discovered a new species of giant squid—3 miles deep. How inspiring. If they can survive under that much pressure, so can I! Okay, that was a huge non-sequitur…maybe the pressure is getting to me a little.
under pressure, but peaceful
pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“They behave strangely but they also look really weird” § Michael Vecchione, scientific expert for National Marine Fisheries Service and the National Museum of Natural History in Washington
Edited by - pia†desideria on 12/21/2001 1:58:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
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| Posted 12/21/2001 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Pia:
I was just reading that article before I logged on. I love stuff like that too. Here was the part that really got me jazzed:
quote:
"I firmly believe that here is a lot of really weird stuff down there that we don't know about. ... We are really ignorant about what lives on our own planet" at great depths.
Weird is good. (Bring it on Doc.)
Mouse
"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." Seal | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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| Posted 12/21/2001 9:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow. Who needs kindred spirits?—I found a fellow squid fan. pia
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They behave strangely but they also look really weird § Michael Vecchione, scientific expert for National Marine Fisheries Service and the National Museum of Natural History in Washington | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 12/21/2001 9:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Weird is good.
Mouse
AHA!!!
THAT'S IT! Weird is good, so good is weird therefore God is weird. Omnibenevolence stands after all!
Cool. Thanks Mouse. 
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
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| Posted 12/21/2001 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Glad to clarify that theological sticking point for you. 
Mouse
"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." Seal | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/21/2001 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | | Bethlehem has opened Eden. . .the cave has opened paradise. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/21/2001 1:37 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm totally confused as to whether Pia or Mouse said this, but I like it:
"Rev. 12 is a condensed version of salvation history, with Creation, Exodus, Incarnation, and Second Coming all rolled into one. Quite a trip. If you could only keep one chapter out of the whole Bible, this would be the one to hang on to."
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 12/21/2001 6:38:37 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
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| Posted 12/21/2001 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Wasn't me POW. Must have been Pia.
Mouse
"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." Seal | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
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Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/21/2001 10:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg asked
quote:
Rev. 12:1 ¶ A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
If this is referring to Mary, what is the significance of the sun, moon and stars?
The sun, moon and the 12 stars is an image of Israel. We first find this imagery in Joseph's dream in Gen 37.
quote:
Genesis 37:9-11 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." 10 So he told [it] to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What [is] this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" 11 And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter [in mind.]
Of course, Joseph is the twelfth star in this story based on his dad's interpretation of the dream.
The Book of Revelation is very Jewish and it seems obvious that it was addressed specifically to Jews (very UNBody of Christ-like). I do not believe it was written by someone who had a knowledge of the mystery revealed to Paul and "house rules" that contradict the house rules of the grace of God given to Paul for us (Eph 3:2) are present within the book i.e. eating meat sacrificed to idols (Rev 2:14,20), claiming to be Jews but aren't (Rev 2:9; 3:9) and God seals men from the twelve tribes (Rev 7). For the reasons why I don't believe the Book of Revelation is addressed to the Body check out what I wrote on this in the old Big, Huge, Enormous Problem! thread foundhere.
quote:
Rev. 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born.
* A possible reference to Herod's attempt to kill Jesus?
That's what I was thinking. Nice to agree with you for once Greg
quote:
Rev. 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne;
* Do you thinking the "snatching away" refers to his resurrection?
That's two times in a row we agree. Wow!
quote:
Rev. 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred sixty days.
* What the heck does the 1260 days refer to?
I've always seen it as the half (three and a half years) of the tribulation. I believe there is an interesting parallel between the woman (Israel) fleeing into the wilderness and what Christ told His disciples to do in the Olivet discourse. Don't have time to go into it now, but this is more support for my belief that the Book of Revelation was addressed to a Jewish group of believers and not the Body of Christ.
quote:
Rev. 12:7 ¶ And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev. 12:8 but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
* Is this conflating the primal war with the incarnation, or a second war, or what?
Good question.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 12/22/2001 06:10:17 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/22/2001 12:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Pia, Evdokimov touches on this all in the last chapter of Women and the Salvation of the World. I wonder whether I included that chapter in what I'd sent you too?
. . . .
I've also read that in the code-of-the-time (Rev. as current events or near future, written so as to now look suspicious if intercepted, but being well understandable to its intended readers) that the Dragon would have been universally as refereing to Egypt.
Then the question is how literal or how metaphorical an Egypt. (the Moses days?, etc.) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/22/2001 12:50 AM (GMT -6) | | | Nothing bad happened when I reached 666; but surely somethign will when I become a member of the 700-club! | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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| Posted 12/22/2001 4:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The Book of Revelation is very Jewish and it seems obvious that it was addressed specifically to Jews (very UNBody of Christ-like).
Oh please. Not on my thread. Start your own if you want to “dispense” with the book of Revelation—for supposedly being addressed to Jews of all reasons! (Hmm…the capital punishment texts you cling to so dearly were also addressed to Jews.…) pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“They behave strangely but they also look really weird” § Michael Vecchione, scientific expert for National Marine Fisheries Service and the National Museum of Natural History in Washington | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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| Posted 12/22/2001 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Pia, cool thread! I read Rev. 12 today because of what you wrote about it. The last verse, 12:17, is soooooo interesting:
quote:
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus
Child of God, child of Mary...I know Revelation is very symbolic, but I really like what that verse says about us being children of Mary. Maybe I'm totally off on this though...
Peace to you all and Merry Christmas!
***********************
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/22/2001 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | W.....: "Child of God, child of Mary...I know Revelation is very symbolic, but I really like what that verse says about us being children of Mary."
I'm challenged by this too. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/22/2001 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Well, I preached the first of three sermons tonight on the baby Jesus as warrior, and I brought in Rev. 12 (just a bit, somewhat simplified of course). It really is a cool supplement to the nativity. (I got a few laughs as I joked about making the devouring dragon part of our standard Christmas lore that we pass onto our kids. Here's the cute Jesus, the reverent Mary, the nice donkeys... and theres SATAN who wants to EAT the baby Jesus. hmmmm. )
Thanks Pia. Tremendously helpful.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 12/22/2001 5:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Is it my computer, or is this page two totally screwy with margins? I have to scroll left and right to read each line! WHO SCREWED IT UP ?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
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Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/23/2001 12:06 AM (GMT -6) | | pia said
quote:
Oh please. Not on my thread. Start your own if you want to “dispense” with the book of Revelation—for supposedly being addressed to Jews of all reasons!
Well excuse me!! I was just attempting to answer some of Greg's questions that he posted on your thread as best I could. Perhaps you can explain for us why the Book of Revelation shows Christ rebuking two churches for eating meat sacrificed to idols and how His doing so does not conflict with what Paul wrote to the Body in his epistles (1 Cor 8; Col 2:16-17,20-23). Or perhaps you can explain why God will seal 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel if the Book of Revelation was addressed to members of the Body of Christ where there is no difference between Jew and Greek (Rom 10:12; Gal 3:28).
quote:
(Hmm…the capital punishment texts you cling to so dearly were also addressed to Jews.…)
The criminal justice system that God gave to Israel has its roots in the fact that man was created in the image of God. God told all of humanity to execute murderers because Man was made in God's image (Gen 9:6). We deny that God created man in His image when we let murderers live.
I will promote Godly, moral laws for our criminal justice system in whatever way I legally can because it is always right to promote justice and execute judgment. God's law is good (Rom 7:12) and the ruling authorities are God's ministers and should execute justice (Rom 13:3-4) though they usually don't.
Also, eating meat sacrificed to idols is an amoral command while executing murderers is a moral command. The one can be "dispensed" with, the other cannot, don't you agree?
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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